Pension Funds: Investments and Tax Relief

Debate between Lord Deben and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Thursday 29th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I would hope that parliamentarians have a role in this; I shall certainly get back to the noble Baroness on that point. As she will know, guidance states that trustees can consider climate change, but we acknowledge that there is some ambiguity, which I think is the gist of the noble Baroness’s question. That is why we are engaging with the Financial Markets Law Committee working group, which is discussing further fiduciary duty. The next meeting will take place at the end of the month.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

May I encourage the Government to do what they have sought to do, but to recognise too that the speed at which climate change is happening is right at the top end of what the scientists thought? Therefore, the fiduciary duty of pension funds to take that into account becomes the more urgent. I hope that in the review later on in the year, the Minister makes sure that they understand the devastating effects on those investments.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I know that my noble friend is extremely active in this area, and I reassure him that we continue to encourage pension schemes to commit to net zero in a way that works for them. As mentioned earlier, from October 2022 we introduced this requirement in the TCFD regulations, which is specifically to calculate and report the extent to which their investments are aligned with the Paris agreement goal.

Free Trade Agreement: New Zealand

Debate between Lord Deben and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Monday 25th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Yes, we are continuing to give reassurance to UK farmers, and I hope that we will succeed in the end. The noble Baroness makes a very good point about standards. The Animal Protection Index, for example, ranks both our countries highly compared to others around the world across a range of animal welfare indicators. Both the UK Government and the New Zealand Government have a long-standing recognition of the sentience of animals. The UK and New Zealand already have a veterinary equivalency agreement, meaning that we already trust and recognise its animal health standards as equivalent to the UK’s.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

I wonder whether my noble friend accepts that we are going to ask our farmers to take on very considerable responsibilities if we are to have any chance whatever of meeting net zero, yet in this agreement we are not in any sense saying that the farmers of New Zealand have to meet the same standards. The New Zealand Government have not placed on their farmers the same standards that we are going to place on ours. For that reason, this runs wholly contrary to what the Government said they would do, from that Bench, when we had the discussions about trade. I am sure that my noble friend will understand how suspicious we have to be given that the Government actually removed from the Australian agreement the tough words about the agreement in Paris six years ago. Unless the Government can show that all trade agreements will have a serious part concerned with climate change, we really cannot ask our farmers to do what they have to do and then find them undermined by imports from countries that are not doing the same thing.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I hope that I can give my noble friend some reassurance, because the UK’s climate change and environmental policies, including in trade negotiations, are some of the most ambitious in the world, reflecting our commitment as the first major economy to pass new laws for net-zero emissions by 2050. On his points about the deal, this trade agreement with New Zealand is one of our greenest ever. It includes a ground-breaking chapter that reinforces our commitment to the Paris temperature goals and our efforts to meet net zero. It encourages the growth of a clean economy and demonstrates our global leadership on climate and environmental protection. This agreement will encourage trade and investment in low-carbon goods, services and technology. It will demonstrate global leadership in climate and environmental protection, but it includes commitments on urgent environmental challenges such as marine litter, sustainable agriculture, air quality and the transition to a circular economy.

Northamptonshire (Structural Changes) Order 2019

Debate between Lord Deben and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Tuesday 11th February 2020 Grand Committee

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I thank the noble Lords who took part in the debate, which has been not only interesting but informed. It has also been somewhat philosophical, particularly in the remarks made by the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock.

The noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, and my noble friend Lady Scott referred to the children’s trust. I absolutely take note of their comments. All I can say is that I will take these concerns back as I am not in a position to answer them; perhaps these views are of a more philosophical sort.

In the same breath, let me say in response to the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, that a letter will be delivered to all noble Lords who took part in the debate, perhaps to put a little more meat on the bones of that particular comment relating to the children’s trust, but also to answer his questions. In fact, I will attempt to answer some of those questions during my closing remarks, but I suspect that I will not answer them in full.

Perhaps this is me being a bit philosophical, but this subject leads to endless debate. Everybody has their own view on how local services are best met and how local authorities and local councils come together best. I understand that. I have my own views; obviously, they are the views of the Government.

I start by setting out our high-level policy: what are we trying to do in local government reorganisation? I hope to allay some fears. The Government are open to innovative, locally led proposals that will improve services, enhance accountability and deliver financial sustainability. Any proposal considered under the Cities and Local Government Devolution Act process will require unanimous consent from all councils. Alternatively, the Secretary of State may issue a formal invitation for proposals.

Two circumstances will be considered in issuing such an invitation. The first is where the following two conditions are met: there is a local request for an invitation, and that request demonstrates that local opinion is coalescing around a single option that is reasonably likely to meet the existing publicly announced criteria for unitarisation. The second circumstance is where it is considered that this action would be appropriate given the specific circumstances of the area, including the long-term sustainability of local services. We are clear that any change to council structure should not be dreamed up or imposed by Whitehall, but led by councils and local people. Councils are much better placed to develop proposals that suit the unique needs of their residents and businesses. That is the overarching policy, which noble Lords have no doubt heard before.

[Lord Deben]

I am sorry to press my noble friend on this, but this proposal does not meet any of those things. First, it was not unanimously accepted by the local councils. Secondly, it was the Secretary of State who said what they could and could not agree to. There was no opportunity for innovative proposals; indeed, they were told precisely that there could not be innovative proposals. It is that that worries me. It is not that there is not a philosophy; it is that in no single case have I found that philosophy being followed. My noble friend, the former leader of Wiltshire Council, pointed out that Wilshire works perfectly well and so does Cornwall. Why was Northamptonshire not given the choice to have a single unitary authority? It is that that worries one. We are not keeping to what we said was our policy; I therefore wonder whether we really have a policy.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I hear what my noble friend says, but I do not agree with him on this. There are several reasons for that. Of course he will expect me to say that; I will say it. We see a fresh start for the people of Northamptonshire. It will provide new councils in which local people can have confidence, providing effective, modern and sustainable services. Like the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, I thank the leaders of the eight—not seven—Northamptonshire councils and the commissioners for the leadership that they have shown to take us to this point.

On the lack of unanimity and there being one council —Corby—that was not entirely on board, it has consistently shown great strength of purpose in nearly supporting things, so when we say that it is not entirely unanimous, Corby was behind many of the issues. Perhaps a letter is required to give a little more information on that.

One of the most important things in this process is consultation. The local consultation described the majorities in favour as overwhelming, with 74% support overall and 77% and 70% in West Northamptonshire and North Northamptonshire respectively. I do not want to be drawn in on the names—I do not think that I can comment on that—but I take the noble Lord’s point on the names that were given.

Brexit: EU Students

Debate between Lord Deben and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Wednesday 11th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I think I made it clear in my previous answer that certainty is given for 2018-19. Discussion is ongoing as to what will happen from then on.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Is my noble friend aware that at the moment we are looking very ungenerous and unwelcoming to people from outside the United Kingdom, particularly in the rest of Europe? Will he therefore accept the comment of my noble friend Lord Cormack that we should not haver or talk about this, that and the other but just say “yes” and give a clear indication of the kind of generous nation we have always been?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

Well, wouldn’t it be easy to say that? I can only reiterate that, as the House will know, negotiations are continuing. However, the UK still has a great offer for EU and international students. With four universities in the world’s top 10 and 16 in the top 100, we are marketing ourselves abroad assiduously through the embassies and high commissions to continue to encourage students to come here to study.

Higher Education and Research Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Committee: 5th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 23rd January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I am sure that I am not the only one for whom the particular solutions that have been presented are not ones that we wish to support wholeheartedly. However, the reason for them is, I think, one that would attract support across the House. We live in a society where the dangers to our liberal system become daily more obvious, so we should not do anything that would enable those who would use the system for anything other than the free, liberal debate of which our universities are so central a part. We do not want a system that could in any way inhibit that.

One difficulty of discussing these issues is that no one is suggesting that this Government, or these Ministers, are of that kind. But a lot of things have happened over the past two or three years that have led many of us to be much more worried about those fundamentals that we have taken for granted. Therefore, I hope that the Minister will understand that there will be a considerable lack of ease if he cannot assure us about the independence of that part of the structure which ensures both quality and independence. As I say, I am not entirely delighted by the various suggestions as to what one might do, and I am concerned about the proliferation of bodies, groups and persons; I am never quite sure how such things can be totally divorced from party politics, but I certainly think we ought to try. I hope that the Minister will understand that there is an underlying concern, which may demand a different answer, but which must be assuaged, because we live in times when none of us is any longer willing to risk any of the things that we hold so fundamental and so dear in our liberal society.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, Clause 23 establishes powers for the Office for Students to assess the quality and standards of higher education. It updates and modifies the current duty on HEFCE to do this.

I should like to say a few words about standards. As the Committee will know, we have already had a useful debate about the inclusion of standards in Clause 23. I reiterate that the intention here is not to weaken or undermine current sector responsibilities and ownership in relation to academic standards. I recognise noble Lords’ concerns. I have been listening, and continue to do so carefully, considering the points that have been raised.

These amendments touch on the importance of co-regulation and how that will be supported through the roles of the designated quality body and the quality assessment committee. They all give welcome recognition to the value of having an independent quality body to undertake the assessment functions under Clause 23, with effective independent oversight built into the quality system. That is why under the Bill the OfS must establish an independent quality assessment committee to provide quality oversight, and is given powers to designate a quality body which is independent from government. I hope that reassures my noble friend Lord Deben. The functions of the OfS and the quality body in this area are overseen by an independent quality assessment committee. Clause 24 will ensure that the majority of its members are not members of the OfS, while offering it the flexibility to draw on the expertise of individual OfS members.

I wish to address the points raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, who was supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Garden. The general theme was that we needed a body which was independent, like the QAA. However, amendments to create a new body on a statutory footing, solely responsible for quality assessment without any links to the OfS, would remove the important ability for the system to operate as one and abolish the system of co-regulation, which has endured for almost two decades, by removing any possibility of a truly independent sector-owned body, such as the QAA, from the regulation of quality; instead creating a statutory body whose chair and chief executive are appointed by the Secretary of State. I reassure noble Lords about the independence of the designated quality body. Although the OfS, in having ultimate responsibility for the register of higher education providers, has to retain appropriate oversight and contact with the designated quality body, the Bill is specific about how this relationship can work; for instance, granting information powers in certain instances will also allow the OfS to give the designated quality body directions which can be general only, such as when advice may be required to fit with the registration cycle. This is only on the condition that it does not undermine the quality body’s expertise.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, raised an important point about the independent quality regulator. I thank him for the amount of work and thought that have gone into his huge number of amendments. The body already has to be independent of the Crown and individual higher education providers but it has to have the confidence of a broad range of higher education providers—tests it would be unlikely to meet if it was not independent. There are safeguards in the Bill which allow it to operate independently on an ongoing basis, including that the quality assessment committee will advise on the work of the OfS and quality body; that the body must have the confidence of the sector to be considered suitable, as the noble Baroness stated; and that directions from the OfS can only be general. Therefore, Clause 23 is key to maintaining a high and rigorous bar for entry into the system, while reducing the burden on those high-performing providers. I reassure the Committee again that there are safeguards built into the quality system that allow an effective co-regulatory approach to function without oversubscription from government, which noble Lords have made clear that they want. With this balance in mind, I therefore request that Amendment 166A be withdrawn.

Volkswagen: Emissions

Debate between Lord Deben and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Tuesday 19th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, the Government take the unacceptable actions of Volkswagen extremely seriously. Our priority is to protect the public as we go through the process of investigating what went wrong and establishing what we can do to stop it happening again in the future. Regarding the noble Baroness’s Question, there is no evidence that consumer rights have been breached but if any have, we have legislation in place at the moment in the Consumer Rights Act and the Sale of Goods Act.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

I first declare an interest as a Volkswagen owner. Does my noble friend accept that the real damage done is to the general public by the additional air pollution, which is already very bad, particularly in London? It seems to many of us that the Government should be taking a proactive stance and insisting that Volkswagen makes proper reparation to society as a whole. Would it not be outrageous if the United States took these steps and we in this country, with our high environmental standards, did not?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

Indeed, and it may be some comfort to my noble friend that the Department for Transport and BIS have been pressing Volkswagen very hard over the past few months. We believe that by February there will be a decision on how UK customers who own Volkswagens are affected. On the question of car emissions, the Government are spending more than £600 million between 2015 and 2020 to support the uptake and manufacturing of ultra-low-emission vehicles.

Royal Mail: Universal Postal Service

Debate between Lord Deben and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Thursday 19th June 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Does my noble friend accept that those of us who live in the country are particularly at risk should there be any diminution in the strength of the universal postal service? However, could we not be encouraged to take on board the practice adopted on the continent and in America—namely, to situate post boxes at the end of driveways? That is environmentally very friendly and entails a huge cost saving.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My noble friend makes an interesting point but the minimum requirements of the universal postal service are enshrined in law, and include six-day delivery to every address, rural and urban, in the UK. I reiterate that the protections are exactly the same for rural areas as urban areas. The Postal Services Act also ensures that universal services are offered at uniform prices throughout the UK; so universal services cannot be offered at different prices in different areas around the UK.

Growth and Infrastructure Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Monday 22nd April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

To clarify what I said to my noble friend Lord Forsyth a minute ago, legal advice is clearly available for settlement agreements and compromise agreements. However, we have made it clear that it is not available at this time for those entering into a new employment contract.

[Lord Deben]

I wonder whether I can help my noble friend. When my companies give shares to our employees, not in return for anything but because they have worked for us for some time and we want them to be involved in the companies, we still find it difficult to explain the terms of those things, even though the terms, whatever they are, are a plus rather than a minus. I wonder whether it is right to suggest that this would not be a difficult thing for people to understand. That worries me considerably. I am very pleased that the Government have moved on the big thing for me, which concerned making it impossible to continue to have jobseeker’s allowance. That for me is a crucial matter. However, I wonder whether my noble friend does not underestimate the difficulty of explaining to somebody even the simplest of share options and share sales.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I very much note my noble friend’s point. He has experience in this field. I say again that some negotiations may become complicated, but the employer and the employee shareholder will go into this with their eyes open. On the other hand, it may be a very straightforward and simple process. Indeed, the employee shareholder who is looking at this new role may decide that he is entirely comfortable with what he has seen, heard and, indeed, read. I clarify again that this is very much a matter between the employer and the employee shareholder.

Growth and Infrastructure Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Wednesday 6th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I can confirm that it is an entirely new status, so the individual who agrees with their employer to a contract to be an employee shareholder is not the same as an employee.

[Lord Deben]

Could my noble friend help the House, before we come to Report, by giving some estimate of how many businesses the Government think will take up this proposition? Given that many of us feel there will be few, it would be helpful to know why we need this big piece of legislation if we do not think many people will take it up. How many employee shareholders of this kind do the Government expect to have in two years’ time?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I thank my noble friend for that question. It is extraordinarily difficult to ascertain a precise figure. It can be only a guesstimate, and I hope that the House will respect that. However, from the figures that we have ascertained, we think that around 6,000 companies will look at this seriously and take up this issue. However, that is, as I say, a guesstimate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Deben]

I do not disagree with that. However, I think that this proposal is going to be so unattractive to so many companies that that particular problem will not arise.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, first, I am most grateful to my noble friend Lord Deben for extolling the virtues of employee ownership, which is very much part of the debate today.

This amendment stipulates that the clause should come into effect only once an independent assessment, conducted by the Office for Budget Responsibility, is laid before both Houses setting out the impact on the Exchequer for each financial year between 2014 and 2030.

The OBR’s role is to provide independent scrutiny and certification of the Government’s policy costings ahead of the Budget and the Autumn Statement. The OBR certified the costing of this measure submitted by HMRC using the methodology set out in the policy costings document published at the Autumn Statement, which is available on the HM Treasury website.

The main duty of the OBR is to examine and report on the sustainability of the public finances. The OBR performs this duty independently, with complete discretion to determine the content of its publications and its work programme of research and analysis.

The Government do not publish annual breakdowns of the cost of operating specific tax measures beyond the end of the forecast period, and this has been the case for some time. This will apply to the employee shareholder status in the same way as it applies to the cost of operating any other specific tax measures.

The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, is understandably concerned about the need to support the Government’s agenda for fiscal sustainability. I emphasise that we believe that investment in policies such as this one—aimed at reducing costs on business and increasing productivity —is exactly what is needed at this time. Strong, sustainable and balanced growth is the key to long-term fiscal sustainability. However, I assure the noble Lord that if further provisions are needed to limit its overall costs, we will have the opportunity to include these at a later date.

At this stage, I think it is worth picking up some points that the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, raised concerning the OBR. The OBR, with its responsibility, is right to note that predicting the take-up of new policies such as this one is very difficult. We recognise that, but its comments need clarification. First, the OBR refers to tax planning and not avoidance. Encouraging take-up of this targeted employment policy should not be misconstrued as encouraging avoidance. Secondly, any rise towards £1 billion is estimated to occur well beyond the end of the forecast period—in fact, beyond the 2020s, when national income is likely to be more than twice as high in today’s money. Finally, the draft legislation published on 11 December includes a number of anti-avoidance provisions. If further provisions are needed to address particular avoidance risks, we will have the opportunity to include them at a later date with a view to ensuring that this policy does not become disproportionately costly to the taxpayer.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

It gives me the opportunity to answer the noble Lord’s question by saying that the OBR has stated that in the long term this policy could cost up to £1 billion. That figure relates to the future period beyond the 2020s. However, there are uncertainties associated with costs so far into the future and I am sure that the noble Lord will appreciate that. The Government expect that the new employee shareholder status should help to stimulate business and entrepreneurial activity by affording businesses greater choice on the contract that they can offer to individuals while ensuring that appropriate levels of protection are maintained. If the policy achieves this aim, the cost, which is expected to reach £8 million in 2017-18, is proportionate. The draft legislation published on 11 December sets out a number of anti-avoidance provisions to prevent the manipulation of the capital gains tax exemption on shares received under the status. If further provisions are needed to address particular avoidance issues, as mentioned earlier, the Government will have the opportunity to include these at a later date with a view to ensuring that this policy does not continue.

My noble friend Lady Brinton raised the issue of whether the tax incentives were in effect a tax avoidance scam, if I can put it somewhat indelicately. She did not put it in that indelicate way. The Government have already included provisions to deal with various types of possible abuse in the draft legislation on capital gains tax exemption. If other forms of abuse come to light, the Government will make the necessary changes to combat that with a view to ensuring that the policy does not become disproportionately costly to the taxpayer.

Some concern has been raised, notably by my noble friend Lady Brinton about the capital gains tax exemption. This relates particularly to people taking up this new employment status, and although I touched on it slightly earlier, I shall address it directly. We believe that employee ownership is a good thing. We want people to become employee shareholders and to benefit from the exemption provided. Where it is used properly it should be seen as a measure of success and people should take advantage of this particular exemption. However, the draft Finance Bill published on 11 December takes a robust line on the potential misuse of the exemption and provides several measures that would prevent the misuse of employee shareholder employment status. There are rules to prevent those who control a company, such as company directors, holding exempt employee shareholder shares if they control 25% or more of the voting power in the company. Similarly, rules will prevent people connected to those who control the company, such as spouses or children, benefiting from the exemption. We will prohibit employees from benefiting from multiple £50,000 limits by entering into multiple consecutive employee shareholder contracts with related companies. Instead when related companies are involved, an employee will have a single £50,000 limit applying to all shares received by related companies. We will also ensure that those looking to get around the limit by using company liquidations to dispose of and then receive new exempt shares cannot do so. We will require two years to pass between the liquidation of the company and the employee receiving further exempt shares. This treatment strikes the right balance between preventing abuse and ensuring that genuine entrepreneurs are not unfairly hit.

Finally, the legislation will prevent the manipulation of share values, for example, by placing restrictions on them so that an employee can receive shares that are in fact worth more than £50,000. For the purposes of the capital gains tax exemption the value of shares will be based on an unrestricted market share. Taken together the measures and the safeguards outlined in the draft legislation will ensure that the tax benefits of a new employment status can be misused. I hope that that goes some way to satisfying the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton.

[Lord Deben]

Is not the fact that if this works, arguing about how much it costs the Treasury is not sensible? If it works, it will create jobs and make wealth, and the cost to the Treasury will be nil. If it does not work, nobody will take it up and the cost to the Treasury will be nil. It seems to me that this is not a necessary discussion. The only thing that we do not want is for it to be misused. The noble Viscount has explained how the Government intend to do that. No doubt they will do their usual thing of bringing in some more measures to stop it if that were to happen. The real fact is that this is one part of the argument that really does not hold water. We have to accept that if it does not work we have wasted a bit of time, which is not terrible, but if it does work we will have been proved wrong and I will be happy about it. The Treasury will not lose out because there will be jobs, people employed and money being made, which is really worth while.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I am grateful to my noble friend for clarifying that and, of course, he is absolutely right. I felt that it would be helpful to the House to outline the safeguards and to reiterate that the Government have thought very carefully about these issues. Taking up some of the comments made by my noble friend Lord Deben, I emphasise again that it is a risk-reward status as the employee shareholder. The award is: yes, the opportunity is there to be given from between £2,000 and £50,000 and to be aware that if it is £20,000, £30,000, or whatever the figure might be, and the share price happened to double, the total amount, including the doubling would be free from capital gains tax. That is the reward bit, but equally, I am also realistic enough to say that it is possible that the shares might indeed be worth nothing. That is the risk, and it is best to be quite straight and open about that particular issue. With that in mind I hope that the noble Lord is willing to withdraw the amendment.

Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Monday 14th January 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Deben]

I welcome this, and ask the Minister to carry back the message that it is extremely valuable for people to listen to the advice given by committees. He may be involved in the forthcoming Bill which is entirely incorrectly called the Growth and Infrastructure Bill, in which there are some very uncooked suggestions. It would be of great help to the Committee were he to give an assurance that he will do his best to make sure that the Government listen with the same care to some of the suggestions that come from other committees as they appear to have done on this occasion in listening to the specialist committee that has advised this particular action.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

First, I thank the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for his support in this respect. I also take note of the comments that have been made by my noble friend Lord Deben.

Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012

Debate between Lord Deben and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Tuesday 9th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I am delighted that the noble Lord has mentioned Glasgow; I come from north of the border. I wholeheartedly agree with the comments that he has made.

[Lord Deben]

Before my noble friend is led astray by those who want to complain about things or ask that they should be extended, will he repeat that this is a remarkable achievement, that it was brought in within budget—something that most people said was impossible —and that there should be very clear congratulations from this House to those who have achieved that end?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I wholeheartedly agree with my noble friend. Indeed, it is a tremendous feat that we are looking as if we will come in well below budget. The House should remember that that particular budget was set as far back as 2007, although it was admittedly revised from the 2003 pre-bid. I pay tribute to LOCOG, which produced a balanced budget and did tremendously well in sponsorship. It should be congratulated wholeheartedly.