Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Baroness Sherlock

Report stage
Tuesday 21st October 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords for their contributions. My response to these amendments builds on the arguments I made at greater length in the last group.

Amendment 52, from the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, states that the existence of an eligibility indicator alone does not constitute reasonable grounds for the suspicion of fraud under Section 109BZB of the Social Security Administration Act. I have sought to assure noble Lords already today that a conclusion will never be drawn from EVM information. At the point the information is shared, no one is suspected of having done anything wrong and therefore, by definition, no action could be taken to correct the thing that could have been done wrong because no one is suspected of having done anything wrong. I could not be clearer on that.

I think it is worth reminding the House that there are two different things happening here. This measure allows DWP to ask banks to flag up accounts that may on the face of it have received a benefit to which someone is not entitled. That is a piece of information that comes into the department. Along with other pieces of information, it will be sifted and examined, and decisions will be made through the usual processes. DWP does this all the time, with all kinds of information. Those decisions are made. Pursuing fraud is something that is done day to day. Whenever DWP receives data in response to an EVM, the data will be matched with information that DWP holds, so it can identify the claimant and any inconsistencies between the information received from the financial institution and the information provided by the claimant over the life of their claim. It will also look at any possible disregards and any other relevant information, as I explained on the last group.

It is only then, as with our current practice, when a possible inconsistency is identified, that steps will be taken to determine how or even whether a claim needs to be reviewed. In some cases, it will be clear that no further action is required and the data from the EVM will be used no further. In cases of potential error, DWP may contact the customer to discuss the claim or ask for further information. In cases where potential fraud is then suspected, the case may be passed to an authorised officer, who will consider all relevant information to determine whether there are reasonable grounds to suspect that a DWP offence has been committed.

The noble Lord, Lord Deben, made a passionate speech, and he is someone for whom I have a great deal of respect. If what he suspected was happening, his passion would be justified, but I want to persuade him that it is misplaced. The decision to judge that someone has been guilty of fraud and to take action is not an automatic process. It is also not a determination that can be made by just anyone. It can be made only by an authorised officer in the DWP. If there are no reasonable grounds to suspect that a DWP offence has been committed, the case is passed back to the relevant benefit team or compliance team. At all times during that process, as is the case now, DWP will ensure that any next steps are reasonable and proportionate. There are no immediate suspensions of benefits during the process and, where appropriate, DWP will always endeavour to work with the customer to establish the facts around a benefit claim and identify any possible vulnerabilities. I hope that my position on that is clear and is made even clearer by the government amendments—

[Lord Deben (Con)]

If that is so, what is wrong with making it statutory? The issue is that what the Minister says is what now happens. We are concerned about what could happen if it is not in the Bill.

Social Security Advisory Committee: Winter Fuel Payment

Debate between Lord Deben and Baroness Sherlock

Thursday 14th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I think I have answered the point about housing benefit and explained why the Government took the decision we did. However, we are determined to do everything we can, so we are directly contacting approximately 120,000 pensioner households that may be eligible for pension credit, to encourage them to make a claim. We are also writing to all pensioners to make sure they are aware of the changes coming forward and to link them to where they can claim pension credit if they are entitled to it.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Will the Minister accept that the decision not to give money to people who do not need it was the right decision, and that to argue against it is not sensible? However, it is also true that the public has really not understood what this now means. The Government have to communicate much better than they are doing at the moment. It is wrong to attack the Government for the decision, but it is perfectly right to attack the Government for not putting that decision over in a way that people can understand.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, especially for the first half of that encouragement. The Government had to make some difficult choices. Deciding not to pay the winter fuel payment to people who do not need it was one of those choices. Inevitably, that causes some challenge and concern, particularly for those who are around the margins, as with any system of means testing. That has been challenging, but I take the advice of the noble Lord and we will look again to make sure that we are properly explaining to people what is happening and that those who need this most will still get help. I hope that they will not just get the help of the winter fuel payment, but potentially thousands of pounds in pension credit as well.

Pensioners: Winter Support

Debate between Lord Deben and Baroness Sherlock

Tuesday 29th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, the first thing would I mention once again is the household support fund. That is £421 million provided specifically for local authorities to support those in need, especially with the cost of living, such as food and fuel, so that is somewhere for people to go. We realise there is still a significant number of people who could claim pension credit, and if they get pension credit, they will get the winter fuel payment. It also opens up a gateway to other potential support with rent or council tax and passporting to a range of other benefits. We are running a campaign, and we will shortly be writing to 12 million pensioners. We will soon be writing also to 120,000 pensioners who get housing benefit who we think might be entitled to pension credit as well, so we are doing huge amount to make sure all that those in that space can claim it. The final point is that there are two bits to pension credit. The main bit tops up income to a certain level. There is also the savings guarantee, so people who have more savings and may think that they are not entitled to the slightly higher income could still be entitled to some pension credit. If they get any at all, they get the winter fuel payment, so please spread the word.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

It is not sensible to pay taxpayers’ money to people who do not need it—the Government are right on that. My worry is simply that those who apply for pension credit appear in many cases to find the bureaucracy difficult and not quick enough to deliver. Will the Minister assure the House that she will make sure that everybody who applies will get this in time and without bureaucratic delay?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

On bureaucracy, 80% of people now apply for pension credit online. You can apply online, on the phone or on paper, or you can get help from the DWP or a third-party organisation, but 80% apply online. That is by far the simplest and quickest way to do it, not least because you end up answering, at most, 48 questions and sometimes only 35, because lots of things you do not have to go through are taken out. That might seem like a lot, but it really is not—the experience people have is fairly straightforward. If you do not like doing it online, you can phone up and that is the equivalent, because the person on the other end just does it for you—you are on the phone and they are entering all the details. Some weeks, only 5% of people apply on paper.

On how long it takes to process it, as we are expecting an influx of applications, we have redeployed another 500 staff to work on processing. We know that there will be slightly longer times and are warning people who apply that it could take up to nine weeks, but I assure the House that if anyone applies in time, they will get the money. If that means that for a small number of people there will be a cashflow issue, I encourage them go to their local authority to apply to the household support fund to tide them over that gap.