Economic Activity of Public Bodies (Overseas Matters) Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Baroness Neville-Rolfe

Committee stage
Tuesday 7th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My noble friend is saying that, if a regime controls by force and in the most terrible way the whole economics of a nation, I can advise a private company not to deal with it and remove itself from it, but a public body could not say, “I will not trade with or buy from Myanmar”, unless the Government decide that they will not deal with Myanmar in that sense. I find that morally extremely difficult to take. We are asking private people to do things—I am sure the Government would support that—but we are going to exclude those who are democratically elected or who are looking after, for example, a university. I find that very difficult to take.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

We are of course dealing with investment and procurement and the public bodies themselves.

Perhaps I should respond to the noble Lord, Lord Collins, who mentioned the Occupied Territories, which we will be coming back to on later amendments. Although the Government recognise the risks associated with—

Economic Activity of Public Bodies (Overseas Matters) Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Baroness Neville-Rolfe

Committee stage
Wednesday 17th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

It seems to me that the issue here is boycotting a sporting event, and that is not a procurement or investment decision—but I have already undertaken to look carefully at these individual examples, because we all want to understand exactly what we are talking about and to come to the right outcome.

Amendment 24 would carve out community interest companies. While it is not inconceivable that a community interest company might perform a public function, neither the purpose nor the structure of a community interest company naturally lends itself to that. It is not, by and large, what the Bill is designed for.

Amendment 22 seeks to probe whether schools and early years providers, such as nurseries, are in scope of the Bill. I can confirm that all publicly funded schools will be captured by the ban when they are performing public functions, and some early years providers will also be public authorities on that definition. Other early years providers may be captured to the extent that they are performing a public function. However, I will take noble Lords’ concerns on that issue away, because I think it comes into the same category as the other two examples we will be looking at.

Privately funded independent schools—and I think this will probably apply to private universities—will be captured to the extent that they perform a public function. However, they are unlikely to perform functions of a public nature in scenarios where they are captured as hybrid public authorities, which we discussed on the previous group. The ban will ensure that publicly funded schools remain shared spaces for all, and the Bill will ensure that schools and early years providers can remain focused on their core duties, rather than being distracted by divisive campaigns promoted by BDS and others.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

If a Church of England or Catholic school says it will not buy from a country that is persecuting Christians, that is concentrating on its core responsibility. It is not avoiding it; it is what it is there for, which is to uphold the faith. Are we really going to dictate whether or not it should make that decision?

Covid-19: Lockdown Costs and Benefits

Debate between Lord Deben and Baroness Neville-Rolfe

Wednesday 13th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I note what the noble Lord says. It is important that these issues are considered fully from every angle. That is why the Government set up the Covid inquiry and why it is looking into many areas.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

If the Government had not acted but had waited for Parliament to discuss the matter, they would have been in serious trouble. Is it not right that the Government acted immediately in the face of an unprecedented challenge?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I look forward to the results of the inquiry on these points. We expect to get some findings from module 1 in the not-too-distant future, and module 2 looks at a lot of the points that my noble friend has mentioned.

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Baroness Neville-Rolfe

Committee stage
Tuesday 28th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I think my noble friend sent the letter to try to be helpful, following the discussions that were had on the first day of Committee. I hope that others will look at the letter at leisure. I am sure there will be further discussions and debates in Committee, so if I may—

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My noble friend was kind enough to mention me and our work together in the European Union. We have now read this letter; evidently, we are to do something which we would never have done in the European Union. In other words, we are going to decide what will remain on the basis of whether there is room, in weight, for the legislation on seat belts for children, as compared against other legislation. That is what this letter means. It is not surprising that we have moved into a rather wider explanation, because what my noble friend and I did in the European Union we are now doing totally differently here.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I do not think it was entirely different. As I recall, in those days we were trying to cut red tape and regulatory burdens being imposed by Brussels. We will come to Clause 15, where I think the regulatory reference appears, in due course.

I would like to make progress, because we have lots of amendments to get through today, and return to Amendment 7, which I think the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, was sponsoring. To make a general point on motor, in reviewing our retained EU law, the Government will make decisions in the best interests of UK citizens, and the Motor Vehicles (Wearing of Seat Belts by Children in Front Seats) Regulations will be no exception. I agree that this is an essential element of our law, and one that we intend to retain and to assimilate into UK statute.

The seat-belt wearing requirements are crucial to the safety of our roads; we are agreed on that. We know that even though seat-belt use is high, it still represents a disproportionately high impact on the number of deaths and serious injuries on our roads. The noble Baroness gave a figure for those who were killed not wearing seat belts which was very arresting. Therefore, this law is clearly still necessary.

COP 27

Debate between Lord Deben and Baroness Neville-Rolfe

Thursday 27th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

There is no ban. This is a matter for the palace, and I really cannot be drawn on communication between the Government and the monarch. This is a matter for them, but I reiterate that we are very fortunate that our King is so globally identified with nature and tackling climate change.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Can my noble friend help me? Can we now expect that the Cabinet committee chaired by the Prime Minister will continue, that the Prime Minister will chair it and that it will be regular in dealing with climate change, which, after all, is the biggest material threat to ourselves and the world that exists?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I know all that my noble friend has done to help on climate change and his great work chairing the Climate Change Committee. As for the Cabinet committees for the new Government, we will have to wait to find our exactly what they look like.

Trade Union Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Baroness Neville-Rolfe

Tuesday 23rd February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

The answer, which I suppose relates mainly to Clause 12, is that we want to ensure that the time that union representatives collectively spend on union duties and activities during working hours, at taxpayers’ expense, is justifiable and accountable and represents value for money. Clause 12 enables Ministers to make regulations requiring specified public sector employers to publish information relating to facility time for those representatives.

Equally, if the reserve powers in Clause 13 were ever required, they should logically apply to all types of facility time, whatever legislation the rights are granted under and whatever category they fall into in the public sector. In a sense, no area is more immune to attracting inefficient or unaccountable spend than any other type of facility time. Where facility time is found to be at an acceptable level and adds value to the organisation, we expect it to continue, as I have already said. The way that I see it is that the benefits of transparency and accountability do not vary according to the type of work undertaken by, or designation of, a union representative engaged on facility time.

[Lord Deben]

Where one found a public service in which the amount of time spent on health and safety was manifestly below what would normally be expected, would not the fact that you had these figures enable people to complain about that, pointing out that this would be dangerous and that the situation ought to be improved?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My noble friend makes a very fair point. Transparency will show where money is being spent, and sometimes too little is spent as well as too much.

Enterprise Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Deben and Baroness Neville-Rolfe

Wednesday 4th November 2015 Grand Committee

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Could the Minister help me on this, too? I have had exactly the same experience. I think that people around the country always find the figures very difficult to believe, because if you happen not to be in the section that is provided with broadband, you do not believe that anyone else is getting it. You form your opinion from your own experience. I wonder whether there is a possibility of helping those who are still waiting for broadband or, as in my case, are told that they have broadband but it does not actually work, which I think is what happens in much of Suffolk. I wonder whether there is a better way of helping us to feel that there might come a day in which we could operate our businesses more effectively from home than we can at the moment.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I very much agree with noble Lords that it is important for consumers and businesses to have transparent information on how mobile and broadband coverage is improving. I am glad that my noble friend Lord Deben has joined the discussion. He is right: the truth is that perception in this area is lacking reality. It was a slow start, there is more to do and there are lots of individual problems with broadband, but the Government’s plans are now beginning to yield impressive dividends.

We are of course committed to ensuring that the benefits of improved broadband and mobile services are felt right across the nation. That is why we made a universal service commitment to provide minimum service levels of at least 2 megabytes per second by the end of 2015. Basic broadband is already available to virtually 100% of UK premises, and by the end of this year only about 1% of premises will receive less than 2 megabytes per second.

To deal with the remaining 1%, which in a sense is where we are, all premises will have access to at least 2 megabytes per second through the option of satellite broadband connections. They will have the capability of delivering superfast broadband for those who want it. Noble Lords may not know that the satellite scheme is currently being trialled in West Yorkshire and Suffolk, close to my noble friend’s home, and a national scheme is due to go live in December. We are very pleased with the results so far.

We remain on track to provide 90% superfast broadband coverage by early 2016, and we are aiming for 95% of UK premises—the number in the amendment —to have access to superfast speeds by December 2017.

As I think I told the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, superfast is already available to over 83% of homes and businesses in the UK. Importantly, that is up from 45% in 2010. So that was a good effort by the coalition Government. That is the highest coverage among the top five European economies.

Recognising problems in rural and remote areas, the Government have made available up to £8 million to support pilot projects to extend superfast broadband beyond 95% of UK premises, using satellite and wireless, as I said, and will publish further lessons from those pilots later this year.

Improving mobile connectivity is also a priority. Around 94% of the UK’s land mass has coverage from at least one mobile network operator and 69% has coverage from all four. But we want to go further. To this end, a landmark agreement was reached with all four operators in December to ensure that 90% of the UK’s landmass will have voice and text coverage from each MNO by 2017. What this also means is that 97.7% of the UK will have a signal from at least one mobile operator.

These are relentless and concrete measures that the Government have taken to improve coverage. We are striving every day to make improvements so that everyone can benefit from the digital economy. I share the frustrations of everybody at the time that this has taken, but we are committed to ensuring that we have the infrastructure we need for this fourth utility.

The noble Lord proposed a requirement to report on progress being made in improving broadband and mobile coverage. This is already widely available from lots of different sources. I can make the list available to noble Lords so that they know what is being done. I am not convinced that the information gap is there; what I think is there is the need to continue getting this fourth utility fully across the UK. I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw this amendment.

Enterprise Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Deben and Baroness Neville-Rolfe

Wednesday 28th October 2015 Grand Committee

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I hope that my noble friend the Minister will take this point seriously. First, the figure which has been produced by the noble Lord is remarkable. Even if you were to halve it, it would still be remarkable, so I am very interested in that. I want to tell the Committee about my own experience of the construction industry, in which I had a company for some time, but no longer. The comment made by the noble Lord, who is now no longer in his place, that it is not a litigious industry seems to be totally contrary to the truth. It is probably the most litigious of industries. Indeed in many cases, certainly in the past, that is how decisions were made: you made contracts where you knew you were going to go to court at the end of it. That is how you made your decisions. I am afraid that it is a very unhappy history. Anyone who has read the Egan report or indeed the one before his would see just how this business has not changed to the degree that we all hoped it would.

The point I want to draw to the attention of my noble friend is that many companies in other areas manage to have very few bad debts and few bills. Every month, the board of the company of which I am the chairman gets a report on bad debts. I am happy to say that it is a very short report and they do not carry on through to the next month. That is because the company is well run and chases these things up. I do not think that there is a company of any kind in the construction industry which could possibly say that, because it is not the nature of the industry. Once people get into the habit of thinking that this is the way they can behave, that is the way they behave. It becomes a kind of chain: because you do not get your money, you do not pay the money to the other person. They do not get their money and it goes on in that way.

We have to break into that chain. I had not come across this idea until I read the amendment. It seems to me quite an original idea. However, I hope my noble friend will recognise that this is at the heart of the problem. We are talking here about an amount of money that is sufficiently large to make a huge difference if it were redistributed rather quickly. If this situation occurred in any other major industry, there would be cries of outrage, although it does not apply anywhere else that I can think of. My business interests are spread over quite a lot of different companies and I do not think I have ever known the kind of reaction that one has in the construction industry. Therefore, I hope very much that my noble friend will take this seriously. It may not be the answer but it may give her a clue how to provide another answer.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I thank noble Lords for this amendment and, indeed, for the whole series of amendments on the Small Business Commissioner, which have enabled us to have a very good debate. I am glad that my noble friend Lord Deben joined the debate and note his comments on construction, which we can consider in the context of the review that we have just agreed to. However, as he says, more generally, in other sectors some companies are much better payers. What we want to do is to change the culture so that this is the norm rather than the exception, if it is the exception. I do not know the exact facts but the overall numbers are a cause of concern, as we have said on a number of occasions.

The amendment before us, which is not really concerned with construction, would require companies to report outstanding liabilities relating to overdue payment, including interest payments on the unpaid invoices. It would require any failure to disclose this information to be reported to the commissioner.

During Report of the small business Bill in the Lords, I brought forward amendments, as noble Lords may recall, to specify in the Bill how the reporting power could be used in relation to payment performance and interest owed and paid in respect of late payment. Over the summer, my officials have been working with stakeholders on the regulations. We have established a working group to draft non-statutory guidance to ensure that companies are clear on their reporting obligations, and that the information reported is robust and comparable.

From next year we will require companies to report online every six months against a comprehensive set of metrics. That includes the proportion of invoices paid beyond agreed terms and the proportion of invoices paid within 30 days, between 31 and 60 days, and beyond 60 days. That is a lot of information for the top 14,000 companies. It will not be in the annual accounts as we want the information to be provided quickly. The information will, however, be rigorously monitored and will be timely and accessible—more so than putting something into the annual accounts.

The new prompt payment reporting requirement will enable us to bring increased transparency on payment practices and performance. We can legislate by regulation for the Small Business Commissioner to monitor that information, which I think is one of the things that the noble Lord emphasised in his presentation of the amendment. The commissioner may also highlight good and poor performers as part of his or her efforts to drive a fundamental change in behaviour. This will help exert the necessary pressure—a point we keep returning to—on companies to make sure that their suppliers are paid on time and fairly compensated when that is not done.

I am confident that the measures imposed on the Small Business Commissioner will lead to significant change in the UK’s payment culture. I note that the noble Lord said he would want to return to issues to stiffen powers on Report. I would only say in conclusion that I would very much regret seeing an adversarial element developing in this proposal. We do not want more costs, more lawyers and more delay. I think that we have a shared objective of trying to make the Small Business Commissioner a success, but in the mean time I ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.

Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Baroness Neville-Rolfe

Tuesday 17th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, we debated on Report whether the Equality and Human Rights Commission should be excluded from the small business appeals champion in the Bill. I committed to consider the question. Amendment 5 now delivers an exclusion. The Government have always maintained that the EHRC is a very special case and should not be subject to the duty to appoint a champion. We considered that an exemption in secondary legislation would be sufficient, but noble Lords were concerned about this and the potential implication for the EHRC’s “A” status as a national human rights institution. The Government believe that there is only a very small risk here, but we have listened to noble Lords and agreed to eliminate the risk altogether with this amendment, which I know from the debate will be welcomed across the House. I beg to move.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend very much for this concession. I entirely agree with her that nobody in this House thought that the Government were not going to do this. We understood that there was no malice aforethought in any sense at all, but it is surprising how people can make malice if they can find a way of doing it, and many people were suggesting that, in some way, the Government were taking control over this independent body, which would be unacceptable internationally. That is why we made the point, and I, for one, am very pleased that the Government have accepted it. I thank my noble friend for the courteous way in which she has dealt with this and, indeed, the detailed answer that she has given us.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, as a representative of the rebellious tendency on this Bill, I thank my noble friend for the considerable improvements to the Bill as a result. It has been an example of the House of Lords at its very best. We now have something that will make a difference in a lot of areas and which has removed some of the things that might have made a difference in the wrong way. We owe a great deal to the Minister responsible because, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said, she has achieved things that many others have not.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their warm and gracious words and put on record my thanks to everyone who has played a role in supporting the rapid passage of this sizeable Bill through our House. I start by thanking the Lord Speaker and all Deputy Speakers who have facilitated our proceedings, as well as the clerks, the doorkeepers and our skilful reporters in Hansard. As other noble Lords have done, I thank the excellent, hard-working, never-complaining members of the Bill team and officials from the 12 departments who have supported our debates.

This is a wide-ranging Bill. We have considered it from A to Z: right from access to finance through to zero-hours contracts and beyond. We even mentioned Gibraltar and fish and chip shops. I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to our debates and for the detailed scrutiny they have given the Bill. Having benefited from the expertise for which this House is renowned, the Bill now returns to the other place much improved.

We have heard a range of expert voices from the opposition Benches, helped by their excellent apprentice. I am grateful to noble Lords, particularly the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Mendelsohn, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, who are in their places, and the noble Lords, Lord Young of Norwood Green, Lord Mitchell, Lord Grantchester and Lord Watson, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones. I thank them for their constructive, but challenging, approach and for working with me and my officials outside the Chamber.

We have added new provisions on equal pay and on whistleblowing. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wills, for mentioning that and for the stand he has taken in that area. We have reached agreement on the vital pubs measures in a form that is workable to deliver the protections that tied tenants need. I also thank my noble friend Lord Hodgson for providing the perspective of the pub investor so eloquently. Although there has been a lot of passion on either side of the debate, I am glad for the drinkers among us that it was mild-mannered and that nobody has been left feeling too bitter.

Finally, I thank my noble friends Lord Popat, Lord Newby, Lord Nash and Lady Verma, who have so expertly assisted me at the Dispatch Box, as well as my many noble friends who have supported the Bill from the government Benches, especially my noble friend Lord Stoneham, who has attended every day and made the most excellent contributions. I also thank my noble friends Lord Borwick, Lady Harding and Lady Mobarik, who gave us the strength of their business experience on this, their maiden Bill, and my noble friends Lord Lee, Lord Flight, Lord Ridley, Lord Phillips, Lord Freeman, Lord Deben—and his rebellious tendency—and Lord Young of Graffham, who was the inspiration for our public procurement measures.

It is now vital that this Bill proceeds to Royal Assent swiftly so that we can start to reap the benefits for small businesses. It will open up new opportunities for small businesses to innovate, compete and secure finance—to create jobs, to grow and to export. As we call last orders on the Bill, I am sure that is something all noble Lords will want to toast.

Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Baroness Neville-Rolfe

Wednesday 14th January 2015 Grand Committee

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I would first like to say how pleased many of us are at the changes that the noble Lord, Lord Young, has just described. They will make a big difference for small firms around the country.

However, there is another part to this on which I hope that the Minister will be able to help. There are reasons to disagree with the specifics put before us, but the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, has made it clear that he is seeking a response from the Minister that shows that she understands the real problem that is being adumbrated, which is that small firms often find that they are not competing fairly simply because what is asked of them is a much bigger ask than the same thing asked of a big firm. That is the fundamental issue.

There is a second part to that, which is the reaction of those who place the contracts. I am increasingly worried that, in the public sector, there is a safety culture that means that people would prefer to have a firm whose name they know and which they feel no one can blame them for taking on, even if that firm does not in the end do the job properly. It is much easier if it is a national company with a national name—when you have taken it on, nobody can make the complaints that they might make if you were taking on a smaller firm.

Even if the Minister is not able to accept these aspects, I wonder whether she would help us by saying what the Government intend to do to try to make it easier for the public sector to take on companies that might be less assured because they are smaller and because they have not had a contract of that kind before. Are there not serious institutional ways in which we could make that easier? I have not yet seen any indication that, in their plans, the Government have sought to make it less dangerous for a public servant to take on a firm that has perhaps not previously worked with the public sector or perhaps does not have such a long history of doing so. Where there is a risk involved, I think that it is a risk that the public sector ought increasingly to be willing to take if we are to have entrepreneurial innovation in Britain.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, said, there is a good deal of common ground here, although we believe that we have most of the powers that we need, either in this Bill or in separate, regulation-making powers. I thank my noble friend Lord Young of Graffham for explaining the mystery shopper so clearly, and how PQQs have changed. I will come on to Contracts Finder in a minute.

On Amendment 35G, we consider that requiring a small business to pay a fee to access a public contract opportunity is a significant barrier to entry and should be stopped. That is why the Government’s intention in the draft Public Contracts Regulations 2015, which I have mentioned several times, is to help ensure that small businesses have free access to contract opportunities in one place. Moreover, the power in Clause 38 can already be used to make regulations to ensure that documents, information and any process involved in bidding for a contract are made available free of charge. The Cabinet Office will assess the impact of the reforms to be introduced through the draft Public Contracts Regulations before deciding whether to use Clause 38 to make regulations about providing free access.

The noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, asked how we will ensure that there is early engagement with suppliers and that small businesses are included. This is a very good question. Noble Lords will recall that our draft illustrative regulations demonstrate how the power could be used to require authorities to carry out pre-procurement engagement in a way that increases interest in bidding for procurement for SMEs. This could also help to bring in new SMEs and deal with the reputational issues, which was the issue behind my noble friend Lord Deben’s helpful intervention. I recall that, when I was in business, we had a similar wish to encourage new small and local suppliers. We held pre-engagement road shows to talk to the suppliers. Bringing in suppliers that we had not had anything to do with before led to new contracts being let to smaller suppliers outside the mainstream. That is not public sector experience, but it gives me confidence that we should be able to use this pre-engagement process to improve things.

We support the spirit of Amendment 35H and we are already doing more to promote transparency in public procurement. The procurement directive, which was intended to be transposed earlier this year, will require contracting authorities to disclose the number of above EU threshold contracts awarded to small and medium-sized enterprises, based on the EU definition. Contracting authorities will also be required to provide information on the number of bidders for a procurement, as well as reporting on the value of any contracts awarded.

The noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, said that too many prime contracts go to large suppliers. I cannot help but agree with that. The new Public Contracts Regulations will require contracting authorities to explain why they have not broken down large requirements into smaller lots. As my noble friend Lord Young, said, there will be a new Contracts Finder website, which will advertise all central government contracts over £10,000 and local government contracts over £25,000 free of charge. As has been said, the site is already attracting international interest and comment. The regulations will also place an obligation on a contracting authority to report, for contracts of £10,000 and above for central government and £25,000 and above for other authorities, on whether the successful bidder is a small or medium-sized enterprise or a member of a voluntary community social enterprise organisation, and on the value of the contract awarded. I think that that is important. Contracting authorities will be required to publish this information on Contracts Finder.

Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Baroness Neville-Rolfe

Monday 12th January 2015 Grand Committee

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to warn the Committee—and I hope that the Minister will accept this warning—of the danger of the enactment of good-heartedness for the sake of it. There is a phrase in the amendment that symbolises that. The amendment that we are discussing with the first one contains the expression,

“protecting individuals from unfair treatment and promoting a fair and more equal society”.

I am all in favour of a fair and more equal society, but I cannot think of anything that is more likely to make people feel that all this stuff is yet again a whole collection of persiflage rather than the serious matter we are talking about. This is not about small businesses; it is not what small businesses are about. It is a perfectly reasonable statement but not something that we should be putting into the Bill. I am surprised that it is in the amendment.

That enables me to say what I really wanted to say, which is that I think this is a good and necessary Bill. However, we have to remember that we also have a commitment to reducing red tape and reducing the appearance of red tape. I want to make a point about the appearance of red tape. Very often people think that something is restrictive or difficult because there is an awful lot of it. I have always believed that we ought to have a law saying that we cannot introduce any new laws unless we take away at least the same number of lines from the present laws, so as not to make people feel that they are overwhelmed by what is before them.

This seemed to me to be a reasonable moment, before the Minister rises, to say to the noble Lord opposite that there is a responsibility in setting down amendments so as not to give the impression that we are prepared to load people with a whole lot of things that may be politically correct, nice things to say, or something that might be added to a speech, but which, frankly, make people feel that the Government are constantly after them with all sorts of nebulous thoughts and ideas to which we can all sign up, but which ought to be left to people to decide for themselves as to their purpose. They should not be written down in this way.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I thank noble Lords for the amendments and for the opportunity to debate the role of the champion and how it helps business.

We know that small businesses suffer disproportionately from regulatory burdens and find appeals systems, in particular, hard to understand. I thank my noble friend Lord Deben for his intervention, which I could not have put better myself. The point about reducing red tape and the appearance of red tape particularly applies to appeals, when people need to understand where they can go and to have proper processes at a regulator if and when things go wrong. I feel that very strongly.

Looking at the amendments in turn, Amendments 33D and 33E relate to the champion’s assessment of the regulators’ appeal processes and procedures. We certainly do not want the champions to ignore the core role and function of a regulator when making an assessment of the regulator’s complaints and appeals. However, we will make it clear in guidance that the champions should consider this in their assessment of appeals processes. Clearly, those processes need to be shaped by the sort of cases at stake. Cases considered by the Pensions Regulator will be very different from those before the Environment Agency or the Security Industry Authority. There are a number of factors that champions will need to consider in reviewing appeals processes. As well as the protections that the regulator has been established to secure, these will include the types of cases being considered, the profiles of the businesses which are applying and the typical timescale. We aim to identify the relevant considerations in guidance. Putting only one of them in the Bill would give it undue weight. I hope that the noble Lord will accept that, and feel able to withdraw the amendment.

Amendments 33F and 33L relate to reporting—both by the champion and the independent complaints commissioner—on discrimination against a business that has challenged a regulator. Of course, the independent complaints commissioner is the equivalent of the champion for financial services regulation. It has a different name and different framework to fit in with the regulations that establish these bodies and the statutes relating to them, as I think the noble Lord acknowledged.

The Government fully agree that such discrimination is unacceptable. We do not want to deter complaints. However, Amendment 33F requires that the champions should provide an assessment of individual cases and provide redress on those cases if they find that discrimination has occurred. While understanding the objective, we do not want to create a separate route of appeal, which is what the amendment seems to do. It also conflicts with Clause 17(5), which explicitly prevents champions making any recommendation in relation to individual cases. By giving the champion vires over individual cases, Amendment 33F would negate that.

None the less, this whole issue is certainly one to which the champions should be alive. I am happy to commit that our guidance to champions under Clause 19 will require them to consider any examples of discrimination against those who challenge regulators’ decisions, and to make recommendations where they find it. That is an important horizontal issue for them to look at. The Government therefore oppose this amendment, although we support the sentiment behind it.

Amendment 33L makes similar, though less extensive, requirements in respect of the financial regulators’ independent complaints commissioner. The amendment requires an assessment of any unfair and discriminatory practices in the commissioner’s annual report. The clause already requires the report to include information concerning general trends emerging from investigations, which can and should include the issues of unfair and discriminatory behaviour where there has been a complaint. We believe that does enough and do not want to create a new industry of challenge and confusion.

I hope that the noble Lord has been reassured by my response and by what we plan in terms of guidance and will agree to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, having been critical of what I am afraid I referred to as persiflage in an earlier amendment, I draw my noble friend’s attention to the importance of this set of amendments. They are not here, as I understand it, to lay extra burdens on anybody or to make generalised statements about good will and family life. In fact, they are designed very purposely to ask the Government to be very clear about this issue.

I say to my noble friend that it is important for the Government to be very clear about this position, because there are a number of other areas in which the Government have not been clear and where we are now in some difficulty. Of course I would not be out of order were I to speak to the question of caste at any length, but there is no doubt that there are a series of issues where lack of clarity has led people to be concerned as to where the Government stand. I am not concerned about that, because I am quite sure that the Government stand in the right place—you could not expect me to sit on this side of the Room if I did not think that. However, there are those who are not entirely sure, and this would be a good opportunity to give them the assurance that they need, not only for the high-minded view that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, put forward and which she is perfectly right to raise, on the standing within the international community, but also for a rather boring local reason. That is that one of the problems of red tape, as I said, is the perception of it, and one of the other problems is the misunderstanding, and not knowing where it is.

I do not like the term “deregulation” much, as it presupposes that the answer in all questions is not to have regulation, while in my view we have to try to look for good regulation. That is what Governments of all parties mean, when they are sensible, whatever they say outside. One of the ways we can have good regulation is, first of all, to have clear regulation—people know where they are. That is why I am so keen on not having too much of it, not because I do not want regulation, but simply because the more you have of it, the less people are clear and the less they know what they should be doing. In this particular case, clarity seems crucially important.

Although this is clearly a probing amendment that is meant to try to make sure that the Government say what they think and, if it is necessary to put that in the Bill or change one of the clauses in such a way as to make that explanation certain, I am sure that the Government will find a way to do that. I wanted to emphasise that this seems to be a totally different kind of discussion from the one that I rather light-heartedly drew attention to earlier on—I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, if he felt that I had been unfair about what he said. However, on this occasion it is important that there should be absolute clarity.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her amendments relating to the scope of the champion policy and the links to the growth duty and indeed, for making an appearance in the Committee to talk about the EHRC in particular.

If the noble Baroness will bear with me, I shall take the amendments in turn. Perhaps I should start by commenting on the question from my noble friend Lord Eccles about the purpose of the business impact target. Clause 21, to which he refers, establishes a framework for transparent regulatory reporting. This framework builds on, it is fair to say, the world-leading success of the Government’s one-in, one-out and one-in, two-out approaches to regulatory management, which have saved business a lot of money—£2.2 billion a year.

The Government have significantly improved the regulatory environment for business, but the job is not done. Many businesses in this country, as we have heard in the Committee, believe that complying with regulations is still the single greatest challenge to running their business. There remains an ongoing need for future Governments to ensure that the regulatory system is as streamlined and efficient as possible and, as my noble friend Lord Deben said, really clear.

Clause 21 is designed to achieve that objective. It places a duty on the Secretary of State to publish and lay before Parliament a business impact target within 12 months of the commencement of a new Parliament. The setting of deregulatory targets is already well established. The previous Administration set a reduction target for administrative burdens; this Government have pioneered other systems. Examples demonstrate the value of such an approach and the Bill’s proposals are in a sense a natural progression of the established practice, which is important.

Amendments 33H and 33J would, in different ways, restrict the list of regulators to which the small business appeals champion provisions can apply. The Bill already provides that the list of regulators covered by appeals champions should be set out in regulations. As I have already said, these will be subject to an affirmative resolution. We have already issued a consultation document—I repeat that for the benefit of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton—and that consultation paper is on the government website. The consultation ended last Friday, but we are happy, of course, to take account of representations received in debates in the House alongside the consultation. We will publish a summary of the consultation and the Government’s response in due course. Our response will become the basis of the regulations that we lay before Parliament and which will bring regulators into scope.

The one area where the clauses mention specific regulators is in respect of the financial services regulators. That is because these regulators already have an extensive statutory framework for engaging with business stakeholders and we feel that creating a champion would risk creating confusion and duplication.

On Amendment 33H, if one accepts the general thrust of this policy on the need for someone to make sure that regulators’ appeals processes are business friendly, why would one not want it to apply, for example, to care homes that felt unfairly treated and wanted to challenge rulings by the Care Quality Commission? What about businesses challenging the Insolvency Service?

Moreover, the amendment also proposes to exclude the Equality and Human Rights Commission. I can reassure the noble Baroness that it is already the Government’s position that the EHRC should not be in scope. Consequently, it was not included in the consultation to which I referred or in the list of regulators to be covered. The Government recognise the possibility that applying the growth duty to the EHRC might have inadvertently triggered a review of the “A” status of the EHRC. They have therefore decided not to do so. The Business Secretary has written to the EHRC to confirm this decision. We have no desire to threaten the status of the EHRC, and will take all necessary action to ensure that we do not. I hope that that clarity also reassures my noble friend Lord Deben.

Nevertheless, we do not think it would be appropriate to start excluding certain regulators within the Bill. The Bill, as drafted, rightly leaves this for secondary legislation. This is because regulators may change over time and it is important that there is flexibility to amend the list accordingly.

[Lord Deben]

My noble friend said earlier on that this would not apply to the financial regulators. Some of us think that this Government have the most amazing ability to think in two different ways: they deregulate on everything else but overregulate in the financial areas. I declare an interest, which is in my entry in the register of interests. I do not quite understand why, if these things are so good for all the other areas, they are no good in the financial service area. My noble friend said that she thought it might be duplicative, but I cannot think of any rights that people have under the present regulations which parallel this. There are small businesses involved—again, I declare my interest—so I do not quite understand her answer to that, although I must thank her very much for her clear answer on the equalities organisation.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I thank my noble friend for his intervention because it gives me the opportunity to explain that Clause 20 introduces equivalent provisions for financial services. It is because of the plethora of existing legislation on financial services that we have to do it in a slightly different way in that area. I am sure that we will come on to scrutinise that clause in due course. Even for the financial regulators, I understand that the exclusion is not in the Bill. We are simply trying to achieve exactly the same effect but have had to do it in a different way.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, we should be very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, for raising this question. It is only part of the question, if I may put it that way, because there is a real issue which the previous speaker was absolutely right to raise. We have to think this through and I am not sure that it has been thought through. What is the nature of a property which was rented originally, or, indeed, owned originally, as a house, and then a business is started within it under the terms of the Bill? I put it like that because it was pretty clear in the past what you had to do: you were running a business, so you had to report it to somebody and somebody told you whether you could or could not run a business in those circumstances. That is, bluntly, more or less what happened.

We also know that a very large number of people run businesses, do not report them to anybody and nobody cares too much. As long as they do not make too much noise or other nuisance, everybody is perfectly happy. However, that is an unacceptable position because some people manage to run a business in those circumstances but others do not and that is not right. We want to encourage people to start a business in these circumstances because it is the natural way to do so. We do not want interfering local authority personnel to arrive and say, “You can’t do that in your garage. You have got to move to our extremely nice and very expensive industrial estate”.

Two tax elements are involved here. I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, mentioned the other one. I am very interested to know what happens about VAT. If a house is said to be a business premises as a result of this measure, there is also the question of whether, if you sell it on, you retain your right to sell on your principal residence, because it could be your principal residence as well as your business. How would that interact with selling a business premises where you have received rent? Then there is another question about how you have structured the business and which part of it is used as a business. The Committee can see immediately that there is a series of complications here. I dare to say to my noble friend that I am not quite sure that people have actually thought this through.

I want to do precisely what the Bill is intended to do, which is to say that you cannot prevent people running a business from their own homes. That is not an acceptable way for either a landlord or local authorities to operate. I know some areas where local authorities have operated absolutely appallingly in what they insisted on. They made it very difficult for people. This is not just in small circumstances. There was a really bad example in my constituency when I was a Member of Parliament in which a local authority said that it was unacceptable for a marquee to be put up in a very large house with a very large amount of ground around it because it was being used as an exemplar of marquees. They could have a marquee if they wanted one for a party—as long as they did not have too many parties—but to have a marquee as an exemplar of marquees, because the business was for marquee renting, was unacceptable without planning permission, which the local authority would not give.

People get themselves into terrible situations. We need to be quite sure where we are going with this particular change. However, I think that the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, is not acceptable for all the reasons that have been given: it is not complete enough and it opens the gates to misuse of the Bill, which none of us wants. We have to ensure that the person lives in the house; that is obvious. This is one of those really difficult situations because it is like the question of the elephant: you can describe what you mean by this, but to write it down in a satisfactory way is quite difficult. Clearly, if a house is largely used for a business and a flat is effectively attached to it then that is different from the house being used as a house in which some of the rooms are used for the business. Some of the rooms may sometimes be used by the business. All those things make it extremely difficult.

I do not want my noble friend to think that the only answer to this is not to do it; that would be a great disappointment and I am sure that she will not think that. We want to do it, but I am not sure that this little bit has been as thought through as it will have to be. The noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, has rightly brought it to our attention and I hope that my noble friend will accept that we need to know more about this before we can be entirely happy with it.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, to the Committee and thank him for joining our discussion, and for putting us right on the history of the Cromwell family. More seriously, he has brought his practical experience of enterprise and of the subject. I thank him for his support for the Bill, and I think he supports Clause 35 as well. This has been a good debate. It is excellent when Back-Benchers raise these sorts of concerns with amendments of this kind.

For completeness, I should add the wider action that we have taken on business rates. In the 2014 Autumn Statement, the Chancellor announced further help for business rates, bringing the total support for 2015-16 to £1.4 billion. That included some very significant measures targeted specifically at smaller businesses, such as the doubling of small business rate relief for a further year and the £1,500 discount for smaller shops, pubs and restaurants. We have also, of course, given councils powers to grant discounts entirely as they see fit. When they do so, we automatically meet 50% of the costs. Those powers can be used to support small businesses to encourage growth.

It was also good to have the support of my noble friend Lord Stoneham. As usual, he made perceptive points about the drafting and rightly drew attention to the requirement for owner-occupation.

It is always good to have the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, joining the debate, in view of his knowledge of the subject. I note what he says about empty property rates and the services provided to business rate payers. Of course, the current system on empty property rates was introduced by the last Labour Government. We recognise that the empty property rate can be burdensome, especially at times of economic difficulty, but the need to balance changes to the system owing to fiscal consolidation has meant that we have left things as they are.

I turn to the amendment and the issue at hand. The purpose of the proposal is to exclude home-based businesses from paying business rates altogether. I agree that this is an important issue, and we have to provide sensible and clear rules on home working so that they support growth and businesses know where they stand. However, we believe that the amendment is unnecessary, as we hope that we have indeed already achieved the desired outcome through some sensible and clear rules. We have ensured that, in the majority of circumstances, home-based businesses will not attract business rates—the noble Baroness will be glad to hear that. We provided that clarity through guidance published by the Valuation Office Agency last summer. The guidance clearly sets out the circumstances in which the Government do not expect businesses to pay business rates. That guidance is available on the GOV.UK website.

As a result, in the majority of circumstances home-based businesses will not attract business rates, but there are some exceptions in the interests of fairness. For example, a dentist’s surgery on the ground floor of a domestic house continues to attract business rates. Indeed, that example serves to illustrate why we favoured guidance over legislating on this matter in this Bill. Guidance allows sensible decisions to be made reflecting the circumstances on the ground in each case. Attempting to legislate to cover all situations could, I fear, increase uncertainty over home working and allow some substantial businesses to avoid business rates. I hope that noble Lords agree that is not what we wish to achieve, and that clear guidance is the best approach in this situation.

My noble friend Lord Deben raised questions about tax, so I shall comment on VAT in particular. A home-based business, as I am sure he will know, should remain liable for VAT in the same way as other businesses, subject to the same thresholds.

[Lord Deben]

I was referring not to that issue, but to the issue of clearing up the connection between business rates and home businesses. Unless we do that, there could be circumstances in which the home became liable to business rates and then it could be seen as a business property. I want to make sure that, if such a business was sold, the owner could maintain the right to sell his own property without VAT—

[Lord Deben]

Yes, the capital gains tax element becomes very serious in that regard. I know that my noble friend will tell me that, happily, it is all here, but I am just not sure that everybody will understand that. I want to make sure that the guidance makes it clear that people are protected.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I understand what my noble friend says. He is talking about untoward effects, which we are not in the business of creating if we can possibly avoid it. The sensible thing would be for me to take away that point on VAT and capital gains tax. I am always rather careful about saying things about capital gains tax, as it is a complex subject. So we will write on that issue and copy the letter to anyone else who is interested in that point.

I finish on another positive point by reminding noble Lords that, in his Autumn Statement, the Chancellor announced that the Government would conduct a review of the future structure of business rates. The review will report before the Budget in 2016, and the Government will publish its terms of reference. I would encourage interested parties, including noble Lords with expertise in this area, to engage with this review, because it is an important opportunity.

I hope that the noble Lord has found my explanation somewhat reassuring and, on this basis, will withdraw his amendment.

EU: Research Budget

Debate between Lord Deben and Baroness Neville-Rolfe

Tuesday 2nd December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, I have explained that we are concerned. We are in discussions in Europe to see what the right way forward is to find strong, robust scientific advice at the heart of European policy-making.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Is my noble friend aware that we hear a great deal from the Government about the ways in which the European Union could improve itself but we have not heard a great deal from them about getting this right? I hope she will ensure that the Government are seen as being very pro the European Union’s work in science.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I can agree with my noble friend that the Government are indeed very pro the European Union’s work in science. It is an area where we do well; the competitive processes that have been set up under the various R&D frameworks, including Horizon 2020, are an approach to funding out of which we do well. We have a good share of research for our brilliant scientists.