Quality and Safety of Organs Intended for Transplantation (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Deben and Baroness Barker

Wednesday 9th January 2019 Grand Committee

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, we have had a lengthy debate, but it has been extremely helpful and important, and that was best illustrated during the debate on the previous instrument, in the answer the noble Baroness, Lady Manzoor, gave to my question about the inspection of premises. I made the point that the noble Baroness has repeatedly said that this is about ensuring existing arrangements continue. When I challenged her, she was given instant advice that we were talking only about the question of importing organs and tissue, not exporting. That is brilliant; in effect we are not, in a no-deal scenario, going to continue with an existing arrangement for the EU 28, but will, from that point on, be a third country. Whatever we may wish or hope for, the EU will be under no obligation to treat us under continuing and existing laws. Therefore we will inevitably be at a disadvantage. That was extremely helpful.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

But does that not also underline what my noble friends says: that this is not a change in any way? What we mean is that were there to be a no deal, it is not this that changes but that the world changes, and this does not address that change. Therefore the problem is that because that change is not addressed, it will affect us. It will not be as safe or as possible to ensure we can import necessary organs, not just because there will not be any aeroplanes or because there will be problems with boats, but because there will not be a mechanism on that side; we will have a mechanism here. That is a fact of change. Nothing we say will cover the fact that there is a change for which the Government have no contingency plan at all, because they cannot have it.

[Baroness Barker]

Yes, and specifically, I want to ask the noble Baroness about traceability. In these regulations it says that the UK is planning to introduce its own coding system once it is no longer taking part in the EU Coding Platform. Is it right to assume that we will revert to a traceability system that was in place before the EU Coding Platform was introduced, and will it be of the same standard that we have now? I suspect it will not, and therefore the Government should be clear and say that in the matter of the importing and exporting of organs—which are, let us bear in mind, in short supply across the world—we are going to place ourselves at a disadvantage.

I will ask one other question. It is clearly stated that a number of powers currently belonging to the Commission are being transferred to the Secretary of State. Does the Secretary of State have the capacity to make changes in relation to traceability, notification of adverse events and testing to establish whether tissue sent to the UK is free of infection? How can it be demonstrated that new techniques used to process cells and tissues are safe and effective? And what is going to be the cost of that to the NHS? I am not holding my breath, but I would say that the evidence of the last three hours suggests that this Government are prepared to take a massive gamble with the health of our population.

Charities (Protection and Social Investment) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Deben and Baroness Barker

Monday 20th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, I made my views about this amendment known in Committee, and they have not changed. I listened very carefully to what the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, said, and she said one thing that made me believe that this amendment is wrong. She said:

“It is just like a company”.

Well, no, it is not. Charities are distinctly different in law, which is why there are different charitable formats. The noble Baroness said that the majority of charities would be incorporated, but that is not so: approximately 50% of the charities in this country are very small and most of them are not even registered with the Charity Commission. The unincorporated association format is there specifically to enable people who wish to come together for charitable purposes to do so to a standard of operating which is regulated by the Charity Commission in most cases. But they are not held to exactly the same standards as an incorporated association.

The noble Baroness and I often come at things from completely opposite sides, and I disagree with her on this. One reason why the unincorporated association is a valuable framework that is worth retaining for charities is that in the sorts of cases that she raised, it is trustees who have done wrong who are personally liable for what has happened, but the purpose and the assets of the charity remain valid. The effect of this would be to obliterate a whole level of charitable activity; the noble Baroness will, in effect, rip the heart out of a lot of community good up and down the land.

One thing I am not sure about, and the one thing that the noble Baroness did not tell us about in her introduction, is the scale of the problem she is seeking to address. If there is evidence that this is a widespread problem, she has a case, but it needs to be made in a different way; there needs to be a thoroughgoing investigation, which would settle for all time whether or not unincorporated associations, in their present form, should continue or not. I would like to see that done in a thorough and considered way and not on the basis of this debate and this amendment.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness has made a very important point. It is conceivable that we should discuss whether these two forms of charity—the incorporated and the unincorporated—might no longer be entirely fitting for the circumstances of the day. We could discuss wholesale reform, but it seems to me that approaching that in a particular and narrow way is not the right way to do it. Law is not best made that way, not least because if you do it in that piecemeal manner, you can end up with something that is much worse than what you started off with. The law of unintended consequences is very powerful in these circumstances.

The second thing I would say to your Lordships is that Britain has a remarkable reputation around the world for charity, as we have often said in debates. But we have to remember that this is not something that has come about recently; it has happened over a very long period of time. It has resulted in, I have to say, a rather untidy system—there is no doubt about that. There are various different ways of looking at this, and sometimes people want to tidy it up. Perhaps one of the system’s strengths is the fact that there are so many different sorts of charities and so many different groups of people doing things in a slightly different way. With the Charity Commission, we have tried to set some reasonable standards and to ensure that there are very clear reference points.

We have tried hard to do that in a way that corrals people as little as possible. New charities often arise because people feel strongly about something that they have a personal relationship with: something happens, somebody they know has been hurt, they are concerned and they say, “I must do something about that”. Personally, I am a huge supporter of that. When one is canvassing, it always seems the worst thing when you bang on a door and someone says, “Somebody ought to do something about that”. My response is always, “Why don’t you do something about it? It is no good talking about somebody else”. Charities often arise because people say, “I want to do something about it”. That is a really important part of it.

My worry here is therefore, secondly, that we are not just approaching a complex business from a particular, narrow direction but also that we are adding yet again to the complications that face people when they want to turn a spontaneous reaction into a more permanent form. Of course, that leads to duplication of charities and I know that there is a real problem there. However, it is a good, healthy and encourageable part of humanity that people want to do something themselves about a matter they feel strongly about. I fear that if we went down this route without thinking very hard about it, we would—as the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, rightly said—put into the small charities some real concerns.

Thirdly, I would have to be much more convinced about the propriety of putting at risk the funds of a charity given for a particular purpose because of the activities of a particular trustee—which would be the result of the amendment. I can imagine amendments that would not produce that response. I can imagine changing the law in a way that might help to solve the problem that the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, put before the House. However, this amendment does not do that and could put a whole lot of other things into serious default.

The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, is right that to bring forward so complex an amendment in a debate of this kind without having some idea of the size of the problem, or the nature of the different parts of it, is not the way to deal with it. If you do not know how big the problem is, you do not know how dangerous it is to make the change. If it is a huge problem, you may want to risk the change, but if the problem is much more limited, you will probably want to say to yourself, “This is better left to a more mature and serious consideration, and there should be a much bigger one about the legal distinctions between incorporation and unincorporation”.

Care Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Deben and Baroness Barker

Monday 21st October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, in general terms, I support the government amendments. I am sure that my noble friend will want to answer the specific issue which the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, raised. However, I support the Government with a slight caveat. Similar parts of the localism agenda of the Government have likewise seemed to have devolved in order to encourage people to take responsibility. I agree that there is a problem of prescription—if I may use that word in the context of the health service—because we all want to add in to any freedom the particular issues about which we have a special concern. I have real sympathy with those for whom dementia is one of those issues; it certainly is for me. However, we have to guard against that because, in the end, it may produce an artificial series of priorities. In this case, it is much better for the Care Quality Commission to make its own mind up, because it is going to be responsible. I take a rather different view about the recent scandals, in that the commission has to take responsibility for the claims that have been made. If it has to take responsibility, it must have as much control over its agenda as it possibly can.

My concern is simply that the Localism Act claimed to give localities all kinds of new controls over their futures. Yet, this week, we again find the Secretary of State for DCLG calling in a locally agreed solar decision, one supported by the local authority and by the inspector, but turned down—for reasons which are extremely difficult to see—by the centre. I want an assurance from my noble friend that this is real devolution; that the powers which have been given will not be circumvented by some other mechanism within this Bill or other Bills. The purpose of such devolution is to enhance responsibility. My concern is that, often, people who are given and who claim to have responsibility find that the structures are so prescriptive that they cannot take that responsibility seriously. If the amendments are an attempt to ensure that they can carry through their responsibilities in a way which enables the country to look to them to do the job they ought to be doing, that is fine and dandy. However, I hope that we can have reassurance that this is a real change, and not something that is going to be circumvented for the convenience of some Secretary of State by other bits of this or other Bills.

[Baroness Barker]

My Lords, I draw to the House’s attention three questions put forward by Leonard Cheshire Disability. That organisation has worked extremely hard to support the Government in their stated objective of stopping 15-minute care appointments for older people, and its questions are worth following up.

First, why is it necessary to remove this power completely from the CQC; what will the CQC be stopped from doing by the absence of this power that otherwise it would not be? Secondly, the Government are committed to tackling poor commissioning and poor practice. If it is not going to be the role of the CQC to challenge local authorities on their commissioning practices, whose job will it be? Thirdly, is there any evidence that that power, as it exists, has been misused? Whatever one’s view about where responsibility should lie—the noble Lord, Lord Deben, made interesting points about that—those three questions are worthy of an answer when we come to formulate that view.