Quality and Safety of Organs Intended for Transplantation (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Wednesday 9th January 2019 Grand Committee

[Baroness Thornton]

Along with the noble Lords, Lord Deben and Lord Tyler, and other noble Lords, my noble friend has done rather a good job of ensuring that these issues will be taken to where they belong: the Floor of the House.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, we have had a lengthy debate, but it has been extremely helpful and important, and that was best illustrated during the debate on the previous instrument, in the answer the noble Baroness, Lady Manzoor, gave to my question about the inspection of premises. I made the point that the noble Baroness has repeatedly said that this is about ensuring existing arrangements continue. When I challenged her, she was given instant advice that we were talking only about the question of importing organs and tissue, not exporting. That is brilliant; in effect we are not, in a no-deal scenario, going to continue with an existing arrangement for the EU 28, but will, from that point on, be a third country. Whatever we may wish or hope for, the EU will be under no obligation to treat us under continuing and existing laws. Therefore we will inevitably be at a disadvantage. That was extremely helpful.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

But does that not also underline what my noble friends says: that this is not a change in any way? What we mean is that were there to be a no deal, it is not this that changes but that the world changes, and this does not address that change. Therefore the problem is that because that change is not addressed, it will affect us. It will not be as safe or as possible to ensure we can import necessary organs, not just because there will not be any aeroplanes or because there will be problems with boats, but because there will not be a mechanism on that side; we will have a mechanism here. That is a fact of change. Nothing we say will cover the fact that there is a change for which the Government have no contingency plan at all, because they cannot have it.

[Baroness Barker]

Yes, and specifically, I want to ask the noble Baroness about traceability. In these regulations it says that the UK is planning to introduce its own coding system once it is no longer taking part in the EU Coding Platform. Is it right to assume that we will revert to a traceability system that was in place before the EU Coding Platform was introduced, and will it be of the same standard that we have now? I suspect it will not, and therefore the Government should be clear and say that in the matter of the importing and exporting of organs—which are, let us bear in mind, in short supply across the world—we are going to place ourselves at a disadvantage.

I will ask one other question. It is clearly stated that a number of powers currently belonging to the Commission are being transferred to the Secretary of State. Does the Secretary of State have the capacity to make changes in relation to traceability, notification of adverse events and testing to establish whether tissue sent to the UK is free of infection? How can it be demonstrated that new techniques used to process cells and tissues are safe and effective? And what is going to be the cost of that to the NHS? I am not holding my breath, but I would say that the evidence of the last three hours suggests that this Government are prepared to take a massive gamble with the health of our population.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I put a question to the noble Baroness, similar to the one I put to my noble friend. Tomorrow, on the Floor of the House, her compatriot, her fellow Liberal Democrat, the noble Lord, Lord Beith, has a question:

“To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the Parliamentary time required for the consideration and approval of statutory instruments arising from the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the European Union”.


Would that be a good opportunity to raise the question about ultra vires?

[Baroness Barker]

My Lords, procedure and process in this House is not one of my specialities, but I understand that my noble friend Lord Beith has put that Question down, precisely because the whole House knows that there is absolutely no way we can sit from now until the planned Brexit day and get through the amount of work. Therefore, a great many matters will be left unexamined, and that is quite dangerous.

[Lord Warner (CB)]

My Lords, I want to comment on this set of regulations but will relate my remarks to all 10. I address my remarks to the three Ministers here, bearing in mind the three hours that we have spent on these regulations so far, as the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, has said. It can be taken as given that most of what I, the noble Lord, Lord Winston, and others said on the previous set of regulations is what we would say on this set of regulations, but I am not going to repeat it. The same considerations apply.

We are not going to get to number nine on the list, and I want to question what the Minister has been saying, and what the Government have been asserting, all the way along, which is that these regulations do not change policy. The Minister has said this a number of times. I know from the speech I am going to make on number nine that it has changed policy, and I shall deploy the arguments to demonstrate that. Unfortunately, the noble Lord, Lord Henley, is not here to hear them, but if I ever get the chance, he will hear them.

I have a terrible feeling that my concerns about item nine apply all the way through this set of regulations. They do change policy and, although this is not the Minister’s fault, the Government have been asserting for month after month that they do not. They do, and they change policy that is set out in primary legislation in some cases. We do not have any alternative, if I may say to the Grand Committee, to continuing to negative—or whatever the verb is—all these sets of regulations. We can go through this process all the way down to item 10 if the Government want us to do that. I am quite prepared to do that to make the point to the Government. I am doing that not as a member of any party—I am the only Cross-Bench Peer in the Room—but because we are discrediting this House by giving an authenticity to these regulations, which I fear would then get tucked away in the cupboards of Whitehall to be produced again when the need arises. I do not want to be associated with giving authenticity to this set of regulations, and would hope that other Members, of different political parties, feel the same way. I want these three Ministers, who have heard this and sat through this very patiently, to go to the Chief Whip and the powers that be in the government party with feedback about the farce being created.

--- Later in debate ---

At the moment, licensed establishments do not need a licence to import tissues and cells from the EU. After exit they will, and they will need to put appropriate agreements in place. The six months will allow that to happen while the sharing of cells and tissues continues. All current importers from the EU already hold an import licence so no additional licences will be needed, only agreements.

[Baroness Barker]

Sorry, can I clarify what the Minister has just said? The EU is allowed to export to a third country but it is under no obligation to do so. At the moment we are members of the EU so bodies do not have to have an import licence, but they will. So she is saying that there could be six months in which the EU could choose not to export to us as a third country and in which the organisations in this country will have no power to import. We are potentially talking about at least a six-month gap about which we can do nothing because we will no longer be in the EU.

[Baroness Manzoor]

No, my Lords, we are not talking about a gap. We are actually talking about the continuation of what we have in place at the moment. That is why we are making these contingency plans.