European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord De Mauley and Lord Davies of Stamford

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 27th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

I think the previous Prime Minister was a completely incompetent negotiator. The way to make progress in European affairs—it is extraordinary that after all these decades the Tory party has not learned this—is to adopt a communautaire approach and the language of one’s partners, to say that what one is seeking to do is in the interests of everybody and not purely in the selfish interests of this country, and certainly not just to get a good headline in the Daily Express or Daily Mail. We make it clear that we share the long-term objectives of our neighbours and partners for the future of western civilisation, as well as for prosperity, competitiveness and employment and these important economic but ultimately subsidiary objectives. Then we say pragmatically, as we have a reputation for being pragmatic, “Would it not be a good idea to do X, Y and Z which would strengthen our common purposes and take further forward our common ambitions?”. That is the way to make progress but it is the opposite of the confrontational approach the last Prime Minister adopted. It is not surprising that he did not get very far.

I am glad that my noble friend made this brief intervention because it enables me to say that I am extremely worried—I am not alone in this—that the Tory party has learned nothing at all from this experience or from any other experience over the last 40 years of the European Union and so will make the same mistake again. It will find itself not achieving what it ought to in the national interest in these negotiations. They will be a disaster, and a largely avoidable disaster, precisely because the Tory Government have not learned the obvious lessons of the past which my noble friend was kind enough to give me the opportunity to remind them of this afternoon.

If you have somebody negotiating on your behalf—a solicitor, an accountant or some representative, agent, trustee or whoever—and you watch carefully what they are doing, you are entitled to get worried should they do something that goes quite counter to normal human common sense. I pointed out three ways in which the Government are behaving in an extremely irrational fashion. I will repeat them so that the Minister can address them when he sums up. First, why are we pursuing this particular objective with the same kind of intensity and passion when we have acknowledged that the objective that we are trying to achieve—what we are trying to obtain in exchange for the high price of giving up our membership of the single market—is not anything like as great it was previously made out to be?

Secondly, why have we not decided to negotiate on the basis of the available option, which we know exists, of our potential membership of the EEA and see if we can perhaps do a little better and achieve some additional concessions? We have not even tried to do this—why not? Thirdly, why are we proceeding in this negotiation by giving up options in advance, before we have even explored them and before we have even started the negotiations? It is a very extraordinary thing to do.

[Lord De Mauley (Con)]

My Lords, I wonder whether the Labour Party could find room for others in this debate. Even if the noble Lord, Lord Lea, were right that we did not have to go through a process of joining EFTA and the EEA—I do not think that he was, actually—being a member of the EEA means accepting EU laws, as my noble friend Lord Forsyth has said, without any political representation or influence over them. This would, of course, result in less control for the UK over its destiny, rather than more. That is not what people voted for in the referendum. I oppose this amendment for those reasons and because it is directly inconsistent with the White Paper.

Defence Budget

Debate between Lord De Mauley and Lord Davies of Stamford

Monday 14th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords, the noble Lord’s Statement today—

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, there is plenty of time. We have heard from two Labour Back-Benchers already. Let us hear from my noble friend Lord Forsyth.

European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993

Debate between Lord De Mauley and Lord Davies of Stamford

Wednesday 25th April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

There is no requirement to converge, but we none the less believe that we should honour our legal commitments.

I think the gist of what the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, said is that we should not be contributing to the EU budget. The UK remains a committed member of the European Union. However, it is unacceptable for the Commission to impose an inflation-busting budget increase for the 2013 EU budget when Governments across Europe are making difficult decisions on public spending, and we will be pressing for a more realistic budget that recognises the economic reality across Europe.

The noble Lord also suggested that there was no accountability for EU spending. For the 17th successive year, the European Court of Auditors is unable to grant an unqualified positive opinion on the EU accounts. That is entirely unacceptable. The UK Government demand concrete action by the Commission and member states to improve EU financial management.

I am just coming to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, and perhaps he will let me have a go at his initial questions.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

In response to what the noble Lord just said to the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, is it not the case that the auditors have consistently declined to sign off on those aspects of the accounts of the Union which involve money disbursed by member states—for example, structural funds and CAP funds? There have been a number of difficulties in a number of countries, but there has never been any doubt at all about the robustness of the accounts of the Commission and the institutions of the Community. Therefore, this issue is an indictment of a lack of federalism, not of too much feudalism. If the Commission were directly responsible for disbursing all these funds, there probably would be no problem. The problem is with member states that have had a lot of difficulty in keeping accounts properly.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

Before the noble Lord rises to reply to that well known canard, it is, of course, true—is it not?—that a third of the budget is under the direct control of the European Commission. If the noble Lord, Lord Davies, would like to understand how it really works, instead of continuing to produce Europhile propaganda, I suggests he reads Brussels Laid Bare by Marta Andreasen. Then he will understand how the whole thing works, and we will no longer have these fruitless debates trying to pretend that this is not the fault of the corrupt octopus in Brussels but entirely the fault of the wicked nation states, which are also at fault, of course.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord De Mauley]

Perhaps I can come back to that in a moment. The noble Lord, Lord Layard, suggested that there were optimistic assumptions in the OBR forecast, in particular on oil prices and risks from the euro area. The OBR says that,

“oil prices remain a significant uncertainty and the possibility of a further temporary spike in prices represents a risk to our forecast”.

Renewed upward pressure from the record oil prices in recent weeks is also recognised as a risk to the Bank of England’s forecast, most recently in the minutes of April’s MPC meeting.

The noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, spoke about what might happen in the forthcoming French presidential election. He will appreciate that it is not for me to speculate on the outcome of the French election. Of course, the UK is not a party to the fiscal compact; it does not apply to us. The SGP was strengthened last year. Any proposal for fundamental change would require treaty change and that would require the consent of all 27 nations.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

Can the noble Lord tell the House why, apparently on two occasions, the Prime Minister has refused to meet with Monsieur Hollande? Are his judgment and power of prediction in political matters as bad as in economic matters?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, no, I cannot answer that question. The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, asked what would be the repercussions if the House voted against this Motion this evening. The result would be that the Government would not have the statutory authority to submit the information that forms the basis of the convergence programme. The UK would therefore breach its obligations under the EU treaties, which could lead to infraction proceedings brought by the Commission under Article 258 of the treaty, for failure “to fulfil an obligation”. As I have said before, the Government take their legal obligations seriously.

It is worth saying that a strong Europe is in the UK’s economic interests. The Government want to contribute to a strong, prosperous Europe, while safeguarding our interests.

Phone Hacking

Debate between Lord De Mauley and Lord Davies of Stamford

Wednesday 13th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords—

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, we have 10 more minutes. Can the noble Lords decide which of them is to go first?