European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Lord McAvoy

Wednesday 13th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I wish to speak briefly on this issue. My noble friend Lord Foulkes—he may not be my noble friend when I have finished speaking, but there we are—said that he agreed with every word that our noble friend Lord Radice said on Second Reading. I wish to put on record that I did not agree with a single word that my noble friend Lord Radice said in that debate, as he well knows, as the notion that the European Union is some sort of holy grail does not accord with me at all. The speech that most appealed to me in that Second Reading debate was that of the noble Lord, Lord Lamont of Lerwick. Although I do not endorse every single word that he said, nevertheless he very much captured the latent suspicion—however, that may be too strong a word—of the British people towards the European Union.

Naturally, as a loyal party man, I will not support the call for a referendum, which is the basis of this amendment, as that is not Labour Party policy. However, your Lordships’ House would do well to take note of the deep feelings of many people in the United Kingdom against further encroachment into their lives by the European Union. I know that the relevant “holy grail” stipulates that we should all be so-called good Europeans and sign up to everything that comes from Brussels, or wherever else in Europe that the European Union happens to be meeting. However, I take the opposite point of view. I am no history graduate in this regard but, as far as I recall, the 1975 referendum—I was involved in that referendum campaign—sold the European Union to the British people as an economic union and an economic set of circumstances which would help us to retain, or in some cases regain, our place in the industrialised world. However, the giant bureaucracy in Brussels and Strasbourg has encroached on our lives bit by bit. In my opinion that is the main reason why many people in the United Kingdom feel strongly that there should be a referendum.

As I say, unlike my noble friend Lord Foulkes, I do not support the call for a referendum but I would like to take a few more minutes to explain why many people feel that there should be one on anything to do with the European Union. I know that noble Lords dotted all over your Lordships’ House take the exact opposite view and will make faces at me as they walk out of the Chamber because I am saying these things.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My noble friend talked about the giant bureaucracy in Brussels. Is he aware that the European Commission employs fewer people than Strathclyde council, which I think is where he comes from?

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Lord McAvoy

Monday 17th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

I wholeheartedly agree with my noble friend. The most succinct way in which to put this issue is as follows. The Boundary Commission, charged with its very delicate task, as we know from debates this evening and from our own experience of determining a fair pattern of electoral districts and constituencies in this country, has to manage three variables. They include acceptability, which is very important and which means the degree to which the parliamentary constituency boundaries correspond to local people’s feelings of self-identity and community and perhaps how much they coincide with local government boundaries and boundaries involving other health authorities, travel to work areas and economic and social factors of that kind.

That acceptability has always been a major consideration in the mind of the Boundary Commission, which has always made great efforts to ensure that its recommendations are accepted as far as possible. That is part of making a democracy legitimate and accepted and therefore work happily, and that is why the commission has always placed great emphasis on the opportunity to have public inquiries on its recommendations. It has not run away from that at all. As I am sure the Leader of the House will remind me if I go on any further, that is a subject of further amendments, so we will have other opportunities to discuss that very important matter. The Boundary Commission has always recognised that acceptability is a very important aspect of their work.

The second issue is the extent of the uniformity of numbers. The Boundary Commission has always felt that, other things being equal, it was always desirable that constituencies should have the same numbers. Other things are not always equal, and so it has often made recommendations that do not involve very equal numbers in constituencies. Nevertheless, that has always been a principle at which it wanted to aim.

There is a third criterion, which the Government are introducing now—the actual number of seats that emerge. We all know that there is a trade-off between these things, and that if you have greater acceptability you will have greater variation in numbers because the commission will be more elastic in accommodating local susceptibilities, but at the expense of having some constituencies that have different numbers of electors than other constituencies. Equally, if you enforce a particular ceiling such as 600, you very much restrict the ability of the commission to achieve either of the other two purposes—uniformity of numbers or acceptability. There are three variables, and there is a trade-off between the three. That is inevitable; any system that you had would involve a trade-off between the three. The question is whether you honestly recognise those trade-offs or whether you do not.

My own view is that of these three criteria, two are recognisable general principles. Acceptability is a general principle. It is something that we can all say is right in theory and principle. We want to aim towards it; it is part of the good in our constitution, not part of the bad or dysfunctional. Equally, it is very desirable that we should as far as possible have constituencies of equal numbers, so that everyone has the same weight in terms of their representation in Parliament. Again, that is a general principle. It is part of the good in a constitution, not part of the bad or the dysfunctional. I put it to the Committee that a particular number is not a general principle. Six hundred or 650 is not a general principle, and neither is 525 or 535—whatever the Liberal number was. These are just pragmatics and incidentals. They are the result, or should be, of achieving the optimum trade-off or reconciliation between the two general principles.

My noble friends Lord Soley and Lord Lipsey have actually helped the Government, because they have provided a way by which they could achieve what the Government really want—what all of us really want: a system that is as acceptable as possible and that as far as possible involves constituencies of equal numbers. We could do it by leaving it to the Boundary Commission to come, as it always did, to the consequential conclusion as to what numbers of seats should emerge. If necessary—and I agree with my noble friend Lord Soley here—we could set an absolute maximum and give it some parameters. Fine; I would not object to that, as long as the parameters are wide enough for it to do its job without undue distortion and thereby to achieve, as far as possible, the implementation of those general principles to which all of us in this House must ultimately attach the greatest weight and importance.

[Lord McAvoy]

I wish to speak to my noble friend Lord Soley’s amendment, but before doing so I shall briefly draw attention to the comments made earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Garel-Jones—he is, unfortunately, not in his place. The noble Lord comes down from the mountains bearing great prophecies of doom because of alleged filibustering on this side of the House. Before I start on the detail of the amendment, perhaps I might give some detail from an answer obtained from the House of Lords Library by my noble friend Lord Kennedy of Southwark on the time spent on Bills in the last Parliament between May 2005 and April 2010. The Marine and Coastal Access Bill had 19 days, the Coroners and Justice Bill had 16 days, the Identity Cards Bill had 16 days, and the Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill had 15 days. It really is a pity that the noble Lord, Lord Garel-Jones, is not here—