The Situation in the Gulf

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Baroness Goldie

Monday 22nd July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord has just listed a series of diplomatic initiatives taken with Iran over the last few days and the last few years and said that Iran had behaved in an unacceptable fashion. Is it not the case that not a single one of those initiatives had any success whatever? It has been a complete and utter blank. To say, “Well, we needed to exhaust diplomatic initiatives before we did anything else”, is simply absurd in the light of the record we are facing today.

The Minister has also made the most momentous revelation today in the House, which is that we have only one frigate in the Gulf and will be able to maintain only one frigate in the Gulf, because when “Montrose” is relieved she will not be replaced. That is an absolutely devastating indictment of this Government’s record in defending our shipping interests around the world. When I was in the MoD we had 17 escorts: I think we now have 13 and the number is going down. It is a quite disgraceful record. My noble friend Lord West is absolutely right about this and it is about time that the Government did something about it.

This is a very troubling, alarming situation. We find ourselves, quite extraordinarily, in a military confrontation with Iran into which we have walked without any idea at all what we were doing. There was no planning at all, no one seems to have given any thought to what the consequences might be of an aggressive enforcement of Syrian sanctions on Syria’s trading partners—not least Iran—and we find ourselves in a shambles. The Government are good at running a shambles, we know that, and this is a particularly dangerous one. In my view, the only thing we can do in these difficult circumstances is to concentrate our naval resources, as far as we can, through the use of the convoy system, but we must urgently build, and not just build, but buy, more escorts for the Royal Navy, with a full range of capability—anti-submarine, surface-to-air and surface-to-surface, because the Minister has revealed today that gunboats were responsible for this latest incident. The surface-to-air must include a ballistic capability, because the Iranians have ballistics. It is a very worrying situation, and we need to respond with great urgency to deal with it.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, a number of Back Benchers still want to speak. Will the noble Lord please pose a question?

UK’s Ambassador to the USA: Resignation

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Baroness Goldie

Thursday 11th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie]

My noble friend speaks with great wisdom. I am not sure that I am qualified to be an adviser or a counsellor to the President of the United States of America. We have a long-standing and strong relationship with the United States that transcends Prime Ministers and Presidents. That relationship is fundamentally strong and important. It is manifest in various successful collaborations, co-ordinations and partnerships in which we have engaged. I am certain that the Governments of both the United Kingdom and the United States will want to do everything possible to sustain that important and strong relationship.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government should not have accepted Sir Kim’s resignation and if they had any moral fibre they would not have done so. From now on, all ambassadorial communications will inevitably to some degree be self-censored to make sure that, in the event of a leak, the career of the ambassador concerned does not come to a rapid halt, and the Government will therefore no longer be in receipt of the uninhibited frank advice which is essential to good policy-making. Does the Minister agree that this is a bad day for British diplomacy and a shameful day for the country?

[Baroness Goldie]

We have to be sensitive to the wishes of Sir Kim Darroch. We profoundly regret the position in which he was put—the position in which he found himself—but we have to respect his personal wishes in relation to that situation. There is no question of important and sensitive diplomatic communications being censored or moderated lest they might be intercepted and cause embarrassment. If we are not to have a diplomatic service which can be blunt, honest and frank with the Government so that they have the best possible information available before they make important decisions—either in relation to policy or in response to situations of conflict—then we have to question what the point is of a diplomatic service. That service has to be there, it has to be supported, it has to operate independently and we have to respect and dignify the incumbents who do such important work for us.

Withdrawal Agreement: Attorney General’s legal opinion on the Joint Instrument and Unilateral Declaration

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Baroness Goldie

Tuesday 12th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

Just to deal with “egregious” first, surely the word derives from the Latin “e grege”—

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

Order. May the Minister respond?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I will welcome the noble Lord’s comments. His reference to Latin will no doubt enhance this debate. However, for the moment, I entirely concur with the observations of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern. It would be foolish in the extreme to make an important—indeed, significant—political decision on the basis of a risk that can genuinely be regarded as negligible.

Russia and Ukraine: Seizure of Naval Vessels

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Baroness Goldie

Monday 26th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie]

We have to deal with global situations as they arise. I happen to think that this issue probably has nothing whatever to do with Brexit. What the international community has to do is exactly what it is doing: in a responsible and swift fashion, at very senior levels of engagement at the United Nations, NATO and the OSCE, considering the best way to respond to the situation.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that calling on Russia to show restraint in such circumstances is a completely pointless exercise? It will just provoke a lot of belly laughs in the Kremlin. The one thing the Russians understand is concrete sanctions. Will the Government, jointly with our EU allies, consider how the sanctions that they are already imposing on Russia as a result of its failure to observe the Minsk agreement can be suitably enhanced on this occasion?

[Baroness Goldie]

As the noble Lord will be aware, the EU has recently strengthened sanctions related to Crimea by listing individuals and entities who were responsible for the construction of the illegal Kerch bridge. We continue to work closely with all our international partners to ensure that sanctions remain in place as long as Russia’s control of the peninsula continues.

Russia: Vostok 2018 Military Exercises

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Baroness Goldie

Thursday 13th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie]

My noble friend asks a specific question to which I do not have any answer, specific or otherwise, so I shall have to undertake to write to him.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords, according to press reports the latest Russian tank has a range 500 metres longer than that of Challenger 2. If that report is true, it means that Challenger 2, despite the considerable improvements in its turret that have been made over the years, would be quite useless on the battlefield and would instead be simply a death-trap for its crew. Are those reports true? If they are, what are the Government doing about it?

[Baroness Goldie]

My Lords, I point out that good progress has been made since we launched the Modernising Defence Programme in January. I described in my earlier response what the two key aims of that programme are. We have reviewed our existing capability plans, we have begun to shape new policy approaches and to identify some investment priorities, and we have developed a blueprint for a major programme of top-down, transformative reform of defence. This is a holistic exercise, and one in which the MoD is carefully engaging to ensure that the vital needs I have already referred to can be met.

Operation Sophia: A Failed Mission (EUC Report)

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Baroness Goldie

Wednesday 13th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, first, may I say that I have genuinely enjoyed this debate? It has been interesting and stimulating and I am very grateful to all noble Lords for their contributions. I join all your Lordships in thanking my noble friend Lady Verma for tabling this debate. I thank her and all the other members of the European Union Committee for their detailed report. I say to my noble friend Lord McInnes and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, that I realise that this debate is many months after publication of the report. As your Lordships will be aware, significant pressures have prevailed on this House in relation to workload but, as the noble Baroness pertinently pointed out, there is still a relevance and currency in discussing these issues, so it is timely that we are doing that this evening.

I also thank all noble Lords for their different contributions to the debate, and I shall try to respond to them. Before I do that, I would like to remind the House of the Government’s approach to illegal migration and the situation in the central Mediterranean. As noble Lords well know, migration is a phenomenon as old as humanity itself. People have, since time immemorial, left their homes in search of peace, stability and better prospects for themselves and their families; so it is today. What is different about this crisis is that, as a number of your Lordships referred to, organised criminals are exploiting these age-old vulnerabilities for profit with little or no regard for the well-being of the people passing through their hands.

My noble friend Lady Verma rightly referred to the distressing images we have all seen in news footage and the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, vividly described the evil of that activity and the challenges in addressing that matter. This is where the real blame for this crisis lies. These criminal gangs are responsible for the deaths in the Sahara, the drownings in the Mediterranean and the conditions endured by migrants in Libya, including modern slavery.

I thought the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, was fair in acknowledging that, while not perfect in all respects, Operation Sophia has saved lives. It has had successes: smugglers can no longer operate with impunity in international waters. It is not a search and rescue mission, but over 45,000 migrants have been rescued and more than 500 smuggling vessels destroyed.

As noble Lords know, tackling human trafficking and modern slavery is certainly a priority for the Prime Minister. We are committed to working alongside international partners to address this and the wider challenge of illegal migration. The Government maintain that the best policy is a whole-of-route approach. I was very interested to detect that many of your Lordships share that analysis, because the aim is to reduce illegal migration, tackle criminality and trafficking, and protect the vulnerable by making concerted, co-ordinated interventions at all stages of a potential migrant’s journey. The noble Lord, Lord Dubs, spoke eloquently about that, as did the noble Lord, Lord Collins; they also spoke about working with international partners, which I agree is vital. Our policy complements the EU’s comprehensive approach to migration, which ranges from addressing its root causes in source and transit countries to humanitarian assistance and to tackling the smugglers.

My noble friend Lady Chalker spoke with great pith, punchiness and authority on that issue of root causes, the countries of origin and how we address these matters. The noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, also commented constructively on this aspect, as did the noble Lord, Lord Jay, my noble friend Lord Horam and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith.

Operation Sophia is just one part of this EU approach. I will come on to that in a moment, but I think it might be useful for your Lordships if I indicate what the UK has been doing. It has allocated £175 million since 2015 to the response to the Mediterranean migration crisis. This includes a new £75 million humanitarian programme over the next three years focused on the central Mediterranean.

For the benefit of Members, many of whom expressed an interest in this, I think some detail about the DfID programme might be helpful. The programme will be delivered by partners—the International Organization for Migration, UNICEF, the British Red Cross and a consortium of NGOs—and will specifically target vulnerable migrants in west and north Africa, including Libya, as well as communities affected by migration. More specifically, programme activity will take place in migrant source and transit countries such as Senegal, Gambia, Côte d’Ivoire, Guinea, Burkina Faso, Mali, Niger, Algeria, Morocco, Egypt, Libya and Sudan. That illustrates the UK’s wide-ranging vision in trying to deal with this critical issues of countries of origin and the root causes of people undertaking these dangerous journeys.

Part of the programme—up to £5 million-worth of further assistance—is committed to Libya. It will include healthcare and psychosocial support for migrants. We will also continue to provide humanitarian relief and to monitor conditions in Libya’s detention centres. Through the International Organization for Migration, we will also fund urgent humanitarian assistance and protection services for migrants while working to ensure that support is also given to those wishing to return. Indeed, we have helped migrants wishing to return and reintegrate into their countries of origin as part of our whole-of-route approach. We have also funded communications campaigns to warn potential migrants of the risks and realities of taking the route to Libya. We are exploring further opportunities to work with EU partners or to complement their activities in the Sahel. We are also continuing to support the creation of the regional operations centre in Khartoum. This will help to share intelligence about people smuggling and will support the work of our organised immigration crime task force. That was an issue which my noble friend Lord McInnes raised, and I hope that reassures him that this matter is under consideration.

Turning to Operation Sophia, the Government accept that it has not been wholly successful, but I want to make clear that we do not accept the committee’s conclusion that a naval mission was the wrong tool, nor should we overlook what the operation has achieved. The facts speak for themselves. As I said earlier, smuggling gangs no longer operate with impunity in international waters, more than 500 smuggling boats have been put out of action and the number of migrants attempting the journey is falling. In the first five months of 2018, numbers were more than 70% lower than in the same period in 2017, and we are confident that the involvement of naval vessels through Operation Sophia contributed to this.

The noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, raised efforts to trace smugglers. That is an important issue. Specifically in relation to Libya, on the Foreign Secretary’s last visit he announced a package of additional support to help Libya deal with the terrorist threat and to tackle illegal migration. It included an increase in engagement with Libyan law enforcement authorities to tackle organised crime and trafficking, building on the work the UK is already doing with European partners.

It is also worth noting that Operation Sophia is additionally tasked with the important work of implementing the UN arms embargo on Libya on the high seas. Military vessels are vital for this task, which prevents deliveries of arms that would further destabilise the fragile situation in Libya. I was pleased to hear that the UN Security Council renewed the authorising resolution on Monday. The UK continues to support Operation Sophia, and we have had a vessel, currently HMS “Echo”, on task since the operation began. We also provide staff to the operational headquarters and have supported the training of the Libyan coastguard.

My noble friend Lord McInnes sought slightly more information about the future of Operation Sophia, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. I shall deal first with the coastguard training issue. The training really matters because an effective Libyan coastguard will be a vital part of the long-term solution to the migration crisis. Operation Sophia has trained over 200 members of the Libyan navy and coastguard on human rights, gender and search and rescue in order to improve their conduct and effectiveness in these areas. It is positive that the Libyan coastguard is now better able to rescue migrants at sea, and this is reflected in the reduced numbers of crossings of the central Mediterranean into Italy. I alluded earlier to the fall in the first five months of this year compared with those of 2017.

We are concerned about allegations against the Libyan coastguard, including over the mistreatment of migrants, something that a number of contributors raised. We have made clear to the Libyan Prime Minister and to the Libyan coastguard’s senior leadership that any human rights violations are unacceptable. I reassure noble Lords that all coastguard trainees are vetted to exclude anyone found to have committed human rights violations. The operation’s monitoring mechanism for the coastguard will also help to provide greater assurance.

As I said earlier, Operation Sophia is just one part of the wider EU maritime effort, which is also supported by UK assets. For example, Border Force cutters, deployed as part of the FRONTEX-led search and rescue Operation Themis, have saved more than 4,800 lives in the central Mediterranean since this crisis began. I make clear that the UK remains committed to Operation Sophia, including the deployment of HMS “Echo”, until the end of 2018. The Government will take a decision on future support in due course.

A number of noble Lords—my noble friend Lady Verma, the noble Lords, Lord Jay and Lord Collins, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith—raised issues about participation in the CSDP post Brexit. In line with the withdrawal agreement and the March European Council, the UK will be able to continue to participate in CSDP operations and missions, including Operation Sophia, during the implementation period. No decision has been taken regarding our exact contributions during the implementation period. Our future contributions to CSDP, as part of the wider UK-EU security partnership, after the implementation period, are of course a matter for the negotiations, and I think noble Lords will understand that. The Prime Minister has offered the use of British assets and capabilities as part of a partnership—

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

I imagine that our partners would be grateful to know at the earliest opportunity whether they can count on our continuing support for Operation Sophia after March next year. On what kind of timescale do the Government expect to make a decision on this?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie]

I think the noble Lord will understand that that has to come within the ambit of the negotiations. I do not have a crystal ball or a magic wand to wave. What I think is universally recognised, and I have already referred to this, is the strength of a partnership approach to these challenges. The strength of that approach is mutually understood not just by the UK but by our friends in the EU. I would hope that that was conducive to fertile discussions in the negotiations.

Following on from what the noble Lord, Lord Davies, was saying, we will continue to work with European partners on the shared challenges of illegal migration, people trafficking and modern slavery now and after we leave the EU.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister once again but this is a very important point. The Government have said that in certain respects our participation in joint activities after Brexit—for example, in the area of Europol and the common arrest warrant—is unconditional; we will be unconditionally committed on a continuing basis to work together with our present EU partners on those subjects. I think that the Minister has said that our continuing participation in Operation Sophia is conditional, not unconditional, and that it is part of the negotiation so it is going to be set off against various objectives that we are trying to achieve. If that is the case then it seems doubly important for us to come to a conclusion very soon on that matter. It is simply not fair not to let our partners know until the last minute whether they can count on the support of the central British element in a continuing operation.

[Baroness Goldie]

I think the spirit of our intentions is crystal clear. I referred to what was discussed at the March Council. As to further detail, I can give no further information. The noble Lord may be reluctant to accept that, but that is a part of the ongoing negotiations.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, raised the recent issue of the ship “Aquarius”. The UK will work with EU member states and institutions to find a sustainable resolution to the issue of search-and-rescue co-ordination in the Mediterranean. We have previously held informal discussions with EU partners, as well as discussing the issue at multiple levels with the Italian Government, and remain confident that a solution can be found.

The Government agree with the committee that a political solution in Libya is an essential prerequisite in the fight against the smuggling gangs. The current political and security vacuum provides a permissive environment for extremists, including Daesh, as well as criminal gangs trafficking migrants to Europe. That is why achieving security and stability in Libya is a priority for the UK and a key issue for European and regional partners.

My noble friend Lady Verma asked what the UK are doing specifically in Libya. The UK Government have allocated more than £10 million this financial year for assistance to Libya, through our Conflict, Stability and Security Fund. This will help boost political participation and economic development and support improvements in security, stability and resilience. Specifically, EUBAM, with which I know your Lordships will be familiar, now has a light presence in Tripoli, allowing engagement with Libyans. This is an important step in making progress.

The UK has one of the most active diplomatic missions in Libya. Our re-established permanent presence means that our diplomats can make contact with a wide range of Libyans, including political actors at the highest levels. The Foreign Secretary visited Libya twice last year, and the Minister for the Middle East and North Africa, my right honourable friend Alistair Burt, was there as recently as April. We continue to work closely with EU member states and others to end the conflict and bring the parties together through the UN-led mediation process, and the UN action plan.

We agree with the committee that action concerning Libya’s southern border should be explored. EUBAM is mandated to assist the Libyan authorities in the fields of law enforcement, broader criminal justice systems and border management, including reducing pressure on Libya’s southern borders.

Looking to the future, the EU will release its next strategic review of operations in Libya in the next few months. This will set the context for any future mandate of Operation Sophia and will also cover EUBAM. It would not be right to speculate about the review’s recommendations, but I can assure the House that the UK will play a full role in its preparation and any decisions taken as a result, and the Government will keep the committee informed.

In conclusion, the Government remain committed—now and after we leave the EU—to working in close partnership with member states to address the challenges of unmanaged migration across the Mediterranean. We remain committed to supporting stability and economic development in migrants’ countries of origin to reduce the drivers of migration, and we remain committed to supporting United Nations-led efforts to bring peace and stability to Libya, and to building an environment that is no longer conducive to people smugglers, terrorists or criminal gangs.

Altogether, this will bring benefits not only to the citizens of Libya and of Europe but to potential migrants themselves. That is a goal worth striving for, and that is certainly what this Government will continue to do.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Baroness Goldie

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 26th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

The Minister has just mentioned the matter of our withdrawing from the permanent membership of the United Nations Security Council and that our withdrawing from the European Union will mean that there will be only one EU permanent member. Will that not be a wonderful day for France, which will be able to speak in the councils of the United Nations as representing the EU as a whole, and will no doubt do so?

[Baroness Goldie]

I am sorry, I think that I may have been misunderstood. I did not talk about the United Kingdom withdrawing from being a P5 member of the United Nations Security Council. I said that when we withdraw from the EU, the EU will be left with only one member, which is France. The position of the UK in that respect is powerful and influential, and I am pointing out that Taskforce 50 thought that it could certainly merit a specific dialogue and consultation mechanism with the UK.

It is pretty clear, particularly when there are many in this Chamber much more knowledgeable than I am about these important and technical matters, that to underpin our future co-operation we will seek regular institutional engagements, including specific arrangements on secondments and information sharing—that would seem to be at the heart of constructing any relationship. The nature of the threats that we face mean that we should seek a framework that could be scaled up in times of crisis. One needs a relationship which can be tested against need if situations arise when the partnership, agreement or whatever it is to be has to swing into action.

The United Kingdom intelligence community already works closely with other members of the EU. The heads of the German BND, the French DGSE and the UK secret intelligence services issued a joint statement at the Munich security conference committing to close co-operation and stating that cross-border information sharing must be taken forward on themes such as international terrorism, illegal migration and proliferation of cyberattacks after the UK leaves the EU. We want to do all that. I am trying to explain to your Lordships that there is straw with which to make my bricks. I am not just clutching it out of the air; I am trying to indicate that there are substantive matters that can be the foundation for something very firm and enduring.

Perhaps I may try to deal with one or two particular points raised. The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, raised the important matter of sanctions. We have just passed a sanctions Bill which will provide the UK with the powers to implement our own independent sanctions regime, but we would delay these powers coming into force if we could agree arrangements with the EU concerning sanctions co-operation during the implementation period. On sanctions, as with co-operation on foreign and security policy more generally, we seek to consult and develop a co-ordinated approach before decisions are made. To enable such co-operation, we will need consultation mechanisms; for example, regular sanctions dialogues. I was very struck by the contribution from the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, who raised real and poignant issues. Nobody would disagree with that, which underlines why we need close co-operation on these vital issues.

On Amendments 164 and 166 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, the Political and Security Committee and the Foreign Affairs Council are of course bodies of the EU. They are attended by member states and are intended for the development of the EU’s policy.

We are leaving the European Union and are not seeking to participate in these meetings on the same basis as EU members. The noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, identified these problems. But, given our historic ties and shared values, we are likely to continue sharing the same goals and we will therefore want to co-operate closely on a common foreign policy. The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, said very cogently that we are not talking about a zero-sum game. It was racy language for the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, but I totally agree with him. We are not talking about a zero-sum game: well established and good relationships already exist which will not just evaporate. We will seek to bind these and tie them in to our new post-Brexit relationship. We want to establish an enhanced partnership with the EU that reflects the unique position of the UK. This will include close consultation in a variety of fora. Attending the Political and Security Committee and the Foreign Affairs Council, however, is not the only means by which we can achieve that.

Amendment 165 was also tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. This amendment seeks to bind the UK—“bind” is the important word—to follow the EU’s foreign policy objectives regardless of our own views. This would limit the UK’s ability to respond independently to developments in the world post Brexit, and such a restriction would be profoundly undesirable. Of course, on many foreign policy issues the UK and EU will continue to share the same goals and will want to co-operate closely, whether that is by continuing to support the Middle East peace process or by tackling the threat of piracy off the Horn of Africa—but, again, I do not think we need texts and primary legislation to underline what are already our shared values and beliefs.

Amendment 185 was also tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and refers to the EU Intelligence Analysis Centre. I reiterate the Government’s unconditional commitment to European security. In the exit negotiations we will work closely to ensure that the UK and EU continue to co-operate closely, including through the sharing of information, to safeguard our shared values and to combat common threats, including threats of terrorism, organised criminal groups and hostile state actors. The precise modalities and arrangements to enable this partnership will be decided in the negotiations. I do not expect this to satisfy the noble Lords, Lord Adonis and Lord Wallace of Saltaire, but I hope that it will provide them with sufficient reassurance of the Government’s commitment to continue close co-operation with the EU and its agencies and that, in these circumstances, they will see fit not to press their amendments.

I will say in conclusion—I reiterate it because the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, raised the point—that the Government have been clear that the UK remains unconditionally committed to European security. In the exit negotiations we will work to ensure that the UK and EU continue to co-operate closely to safeguard our shared values and to combat common threats, including terrorism. A partnership where we can build on the existing structures and arrangements—because it is not a zero-sum game—to improve processes will enable us to go further to respond to the reality of these. I hope that this will provide your Lordships with sufficient reassurance of the Government’s commitment to continue close co-operation with the EU and its agencies.

Brexit: Negotiations

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Baroness Goldie

Thursday 7th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie]

I can certainly say to my noble friend that, while I cannot go into red lines which are germane to the negotiating process, our clear objectives have been frequently restated: leaving the EU, leaving the single market, leaving the customs union, restoring the supremacy of the British judicial system, preserving the integrity of the United Kingdom and forging a strong relationship with the EU for the future with an ambitious free trade arrangement.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords, anyone who has been involved in negotiations knows that one of the most important things at the outset is to establish the good faith of all the parties—in other words, their ability to conclude the deal that they are purporting to negotiate. Last week, the Commission and the Irish Government clearly assumed that the Prime Minister was negotiating on behalf of the United Kingdom. Actually, she was not: she was negotiating ad referendum to the DUP. In those circumstances, why did she not explain the position to her counterparties on the other side of the table, and why did she not get the DUP alongside, negotiating on their behalf?

[Baroness Goldie]

The Prime Minister is negotiating for the national interest of the United Kingdom and all its parts with rigour and determination—a determination, I may say, acknowledged by no less a person than President Juncker, who described her as a tough negotiator. That is what I want in Brussels; thank goodness, that is what we have in Brussels.

Korean Peninsula

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Baroness Goldie

Tuesday 5th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie]

I thank my noble friend for his question. I agree that China is pivotal to this, and that point was reiterated by the Prime Minister in her response to these developments. Importantly, as has become apparent at United Nations level, China and, for example, Russia are very clear about the unacceptable nature of what has happened. I think the adjective used in the Statement was that China was “unsparing” in its comments. My noble friend makes a very good point. Of course China is pivotal, as are Japan, Russia and the United States, but I also go back to what I said to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire. There has to be some kind of cohesive international partnership to try to deal with this, and I think that the United Kingdom plays an important role in that. No one country has a monopoly of influence. China is extremely influential—there is no shadow of a doubt about that—but it is by acting in concert, as the global powers are currently doing, as manifested by the United Nations resolutions, that we stand the best chance of applying a squeeze to the money revenue stream which Kim Jong-un relies on to fund his illegal and apparently uncontrolled nuclear programme. Therefore, I am not totally at variance with my noble friend’s important point, but I reiterate that what we do as a country and as a Government has to be in partnership with our global colleagues, and I think we are doing that effectively at United Nations level. It is early days to judge just how much the sanctions are biting but all the evidence is that that bite is there and that it will become even firmer.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government seem to be working on three assumptions here. One is that the Chinese are unreservedly committed to restraining Kim Jong-un; the second is that sanctions will work; and the third is that this country has, as the noble Baroness has just put it, an important part to play, even without the European Union. I hope all three assumptions are correct but is there not an alternative hypothesis? China’s long-term strategic aim is to be the dominant power in Asia—to be once again the “Middle Kingdom” of the Yuan and Ming dynasties. She will achieve that only when the Americans are no longer present on the western rim of the Pacific. The Chinese always regarded that situation as very anomalous. The only way that America can be removed is for the ties between America and her three allies in the region, and other countries in the region, to be gradually attenuated and eroded. Eventually those countries will have to deal with China more or less on China’s terms. In that scenario, would not the very best thing that could possibly happen be that the United States be publicly humiliated, shown up as incapable of reacting to threats and unable to defend her allies in the region?

[Baroness Goldie]

A number of points arose in that contribution and I shall try to comment on them. I suppose there will always be differing interpretations of what motivates individual powers, and no doubt different motives will be ascribed to those individual powers. However, given the enormity of what we face—and by “enormity” I mean that, first, this is unprecedented and, secondly, Kim Jong-un appears particularly obdurate about disregarding international law and the United Nations’ measures—I think it has to be responded to globally. While there may be other politics at play—we live in the real world, and it would be impossible to imagine a real world where other politics and political influences did not come to bear—at the same time, the focus has to be on dealing with what has been happening. It is encouraging that, whatever else may be going on in their different back yards, all the powers that are part of the United Nations initiative and privy to the resolutions, and which support and endorse those resolutions, collectively have a very important role to play. My view is that there is evidence that that partnership is proving successful and having an effect, and it is very important that all the major powers stand together against this situation and do not begin to dissemble among themselves. I do not think that would contribute to the positive direction of wanting to persuade Kim Jong-un that there is merit in stopping what he is doing and merit in trying to do something about his own country and the plight of his people. If we can work in tandem towards that objective, there may be some cause for hope.

Brexit: Foreign and Security Policy Co-operation

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Baroness Goldie

Thursday 20th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all the noble Lords who contributed to this important and constructive debate. Many illuminating points have emerged.

The Government have made it clear that, as we leave the EU, we will not turn our back on the world. The UK remains a permanent member of the UN Security Council, the second-largest contributor to NATO and a leading member of the G7, the G20 and the Commonwealth. We take these responsibilities seriously. That underpins the fact that we will continue to be a strong and influential European voice on the world stage, promoting and defending global peace and security.

Nor will we be leaving Europe. We cannot geographically. We are part of Europe. There are a great many areas in which our interests and those of our European neighbours will continue to coincide. Foreign and security policy is one of these areas. We share the same challenges, and it is in all our interests to continue co-operating on them as closely as possible.

It is important to stress that the UK has constructive relationships with all EU states on a bilateral level, as the noble Lord, Lord Collins, mentioned. That is a very healthy situation. We also have important relationships throughout the EU. France is a particularly good example. I referred to it earlier in the week and make no apology to referring to it again as it illustrates the point well. We work with France in a wide range of fields, not just on foreign and security policy, but also on defence, energy, migration, transport and trade. We also have strong relationships with European states which are not members of the EU, such as Norway and Switzerland. When we leave the EU, we will not step back from these relationships or from the co-operative relations we have with existing EU states, EU enlargement states and other countries in Europe, such as Serbia, Ukraine and Georgia. It will be in our mutual interest to strengthen them.

The UK is currently a major contributor to EU foreign and security policy. Our input ranges from the political expertise of our diplomatic network to our military engagement in CSDP missions and from our support for EU development aid to our contributions to the EU’s intelligence and situation centre. I remind noble Lords that our defence budget is the second-largest in NATO after that of the US and the largest in Europe, and we have committed to maintain defence spending at 2% of GDP. Our assets are used to great effect to support EU activity. Some noble Lords mentioned Operation Sophia, which has been successful and is helping to tackle illegal migration and to stem the flow of weapons to terrorists, particularly Daesh, in Libya.

Our contribution to the strategic direction of the EU’s foreign and security policy is also important. A number of noble Lords rightly raised this because our shared security challenges, together with the UK’s strong contribution to EU foreign and security policy, mean that it would be in all our interests for the UK to maintain close security co-operation with the EU after we leave. Defining the way we co-operate with EU partners and the EU as an institution on this issue in future will be an important element to be considered as we exit. This will include defining how the UK will interact with the EU’s common foreign and security policy and common security and defence policy.

There are many other specific questions we need to consider, such as our future interaction with the EU on sanctions policy and overseas development. This area of policy is a topic of great interest to EU member states, as well as other key partners around the world, and we will therefore need to have detailed discussions with EU partners in due course to understand what kind of relationship would meet our mutual interests. A range of options could be envisaged, from ceasing work with the EU as a foreign and security policy actor entirely, to retaining a close and influential relationship with the EU’s CFSP and CSDP. A close relationship would be possible in principle—provided it can be achieved in a way that delivers mutual benefits.

I will now try to deal with the contributions made today, and in the time available see whether I can make some effort to respond to them. I will deal first with the very eloquent contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, when he opened the debate. He raised a number of important points, and the ones I particularly noted down related specifically to the CFSP and CSDP. He posed the question of whether, if we withdraw, we become an outsider—I think that was the word used. I would very much hope that the mutuality of interest, because of the challenges confronting Europe, means anything but that. We have that big defence budget and are right at the heart of defence, which is why we will constructively explore ways in which we might work with the EU in the future to mutual benefit and advantage. Our role in defence and international diplomacy, to which the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, referred, is of course cemented and underpinned by one of the largest and most influential diplomatic networks in the world. You can never disconnect defence from diplomatic endeavour and activity.

My noble friend Lord Howell, in a very thoughtful speech, deployed a most welcome element of pragmatism and insight. Although alert to the challenges, he identified opportunities for the United Kingdom to work outside of but with the EU to improve the EU approach to defence, given the challenges currently emerging within the EU itself.

The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, referred to his anxiety about an “Anglosphere” emerging. As a proud Scot who voted to remain in the EU, I do not want an Anglosphere—it sounds absolutely ghastly to me—but as a proud citizen of the United Kingdom, I want our global influence in terms of diplomacy, defence and economic reach to be the building block for new relationships both with countries in the EU and with those outside it.

My compatriot, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell, to whom it is always a pleasure to listen, graciously acknowledged the importance of this debate in demonstrating the role that Parliament can play, which was a very important point to make. He raised a number of interesting hypotheses on which I cannot comment in detail. I see him reaching forward in his seat with anticipation, and although it is not my desire to disappoint him, I am bound to, because the comment that he seeks would be premature at this stage, and if I tried to make it I should get into very hot water—not a prospect I relish. The noble Lord also mentioned Gibraltar. We will never enter into arrangements under which the people of Gibraltar would pass under the sovereignty of another state against their wishes. I can give him that assurance.

The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, expressed a concern about the UK becoming, I think, a “me, too” country. I observe that we were an influential power before we entered the EU, we remained such as a member of the EU and all the evidence suggests that that influence will continue when we leave the EU. I do not think that the title of “me, too” would be apposite, as I anticipate a role for the United Kingdom post-leaving the EU where we are forging relationships and are a global leader.

My noble friend Lord Marlesford also helpfully alluded to the opportunities. I understand the concerns about our diplomatic global reach, but I reassure him that our diplomatic network is hugely influential, and represented in over 85% of the world’s countries. Some of the delegations to which he referred are, in my understanding, EU-funded, so that does not come out of the UK budget. Our overall diplomatic reach is significant and highly effective.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, raised issues about defence capability and was worried about approaching the negotiations on matters of defence in a spirit of “frivolity”, I think he said. Those fears are unfounded. He rightly underlined the importance of intelligence relationships. It is fully acknowledged that global intelligence is a matter of singular importance. For example, the noble Lord will be aware that our “Five Eyes” intelligence-sharing partnership with the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand is just part of the existing framework of intelligence infrastructure which is out there. I think the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, referred to this, but of course we will have before us, as we enter into these vital negotiations for leaving the EU, the importance of doing everything we can to maintain intelligence-sharing relationships. That is made all the more significant because of the shared and joint interests we have with EU countries.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for her remarks and for giving way. Just to be absolutely clear, will it be the intention of the Government in conducting these negotiations with our EU partners that if we leave the EU, we remain nevertheless as part of Europol, of the European arrest warrant and of the arrangements for exchange of information between police forces, as at present?

[Baroness Goldie]

The noble Lord will appreciate that I cannot give specific answers to these questions. I can merely reaffirm what I have said, which is that we underline the principle of recognising the importance of what we currently have in terms of these structures and arrangements. The noble Lord is quite right to remind us of that importance. We will do everything we can within our negotiating process to ensure that the best achievements to safeguard the security of the United Kingdom are obtained.

The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, in a very reflective contribution, raised the issue of a British identity which is inclusive and amenable to building relationships outwith the UK. I totally agree with that. After leaving the EU, we need relationships with Europe—that goes without saying. It will be the spirit, I am certain, of the negotiations to both respect and deliver on that spirit.

My noble friend Lord Suri engaged in some optimism about our direction of travel, for which I thank him. He mentioned Ukraine specifically. I confirm the UK continues to play a full role within the EU in supporting sanctions. The Ukrainian people have indicated a clear commitment to broader European values, and we certainly continue to uphold their position.

The noble Lord, Lord Lea, expressed frustration with the process. Although I cannot dispel his angst, I can reassure him that there is a process, that there is hope and that there are opportunities. Indeed, this debate itself has identified many strengths and many such opportunities.

The noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, raised the important matter of the influence of the UK, and the attitude to the UK, in the negotiations. He is correct. Like any negotiation, the parties must identify strengths, needs, and mutual influence and opportunities, which I am sure will prove to be a positive and fertile basis for discussion. If the noble Lord’s personal model of courtesy were a template for all negotiations, that would be a very good omen for the future.

The noble Lord, Lord Jay, raised an interesting issue about developing a new European voice and argued that we will require diplomacy and constructive relationships. I agree that discussing how we maintain positive and cordial relationships with the EU once we are out of it is vital. He also alluded to the position of Ireland. There is a broad range of north/south issues on which the UK’s exit from the EU could have an impact, from energy to agriculture, but there are opportunities for both countries too. There is no reason to think that the outcome of the referendum will do anything to undermine the rock-solid commitment of the UK Government and the people of Northern Ireland to the settlement set out in the Belfast agreement.

My noble friend Lord Attlee rightly and wisely called for calm conduct rather than banging tables and throwing chess pieces in the air. I agree with that, and I hope some of the points I have made in my speech and my more detailed responses will go some way towards reassuring him.

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, also raised the question of Ireland, and I hope my response to the noble Lord, Lord Jay, addresses the matter. He also raised the challenging and disturbing plight of refugees, specifically in Lebanon, Turkey and Jordan. The UK has played a leading role globally in responding to the crisis. We have committed £2.3 billion in response to the conflict in Syria and £70 million for the humanitarian response to the crisis in Europe, north Africa and Turkey, making the UK the largest bilateral contributor.

The noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, credited me with poetic skills. I have to give the credit to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop who commenced the quotation, and all I had to do was finish it. The noble Baroness raised a number of significant security-related issues. On the 2015 strategic defence and security review, we do not agree that a new security review is needed. That review was based on a full analysis of the national security challenges facing the UK, and it had a clear national security vision underpinned by three enduring national security objectives. Those objectives and challenges remain valid.

The noble Baroness also raised important matters of intelligence-sharing and the reciprocity of legal process and procedures. These will be on the radar screen, but I observe that we maintain relationships with non-EU countries on such matters. Again, these relationships are born out of practical need and expediency within the framework of international law, so there is no reason to think that such matters cannot be negotiated sensibly.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, spoke on the broad front of defence. I hope I have indicated in some of my remarks how defence will be at the heart of our negotiations and how in principle we will seek to see how we can achieve a close relationship that delivers mutual benefits. On the issues of security and law enforcement, the importance of law enforcement and co-operation with EU and global allies remains unchanged, and exploring options for once we have left means that we will have to do whatever is necessary to keep people safe. It would be wrong to set out a unilateral position on specific measures now, but we will continue to value co-operation on the matters that have been raised, including Europol, European law and Schengen.

In conclusion, foreign and security policy is an extremely important and complex element of our relationship with the EU and its member states. Although we are leaving the EU, we will remain a key European power and we will continue to co-operate with European partners to tackle shared challenges. The eventual shape of that relationship and the way in which it functions will need to be developed through detailed discussions with all the relevant parties.

Once again, I thank noble Lords for their contributions. I have found this an interesting debate. A number of issues have been highlighted and thrown into sharp relief, and I think the aggregate contribution from this House will in turn make a very important contribution to informing the negotiation process as we look ahead and seek to ensure that the matters so important to your Lordships, as identified today, remain at the forefront of the negotiating process.