European Union (Referendum) Bill

Lord Davies of Stamford Excerpts

Friday 31st January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the amendment. In an earlier intervention, the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, drew a parallel with a debate we had in this House yesterday about the Scottish referendum. One of the key themes that came out was the need for a plan B regarding the currency. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, referred to uncertainty. Take it from me that if you are in an extended referendum campaign, the impact of uncertainty, particularly on business intentions, is very considerable indeed. We are not confidently out of recession; even the Chancellor acknowledges that. One thing that business cries out for is a degree of certainty. That is why this is a common-sense amendment. We have to go into any referendum in an atmosphere of calm. It should not be held in an atmosphere in which some people think that the rug is going to be pulled for political reasons rather than for the best interests of the country as a whole.

Before the end of this year, one part of Britain will take a vote on whether to leave the oldest and most successful single market in the world. If there is a no vote in the referendum to come on the EU, we will be taking a decision about leaving the biggest single market in the world. It is essential for the long-term decision-making of British and international business for us to give an indication of the options, what the possible plan B is, and what the consequences will be. The Government, as part of the debate about the future of Scotland, has produced some excellent analytical papers. I commend to noble Lords who do not want to go into the minutiae of the nature of the debate on Scotland one paper in particular: the analysis of the situation regarding defence. The capability exists within the Civil Service to produce a balanced argument.

I know that the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, is a little more anxious today than he was last time, and I feel for him. It is probably the only time in this House that he will ever have unrestrained power. As a Back-Bencher with a Bill, he is in a position, without consulting anybody else, to be able to say that he accepts an amendment. We will get a move on and put a common-sense element into the Bill. If there had been schedules to it, we could have looked at them; but there are none. I therefore appeal to the noble Lord. Let us give a crumb to those who want this campaign to take place in an atmosphere of calmness and give a signal to the business community, which has lots of money to invest at the moment, that it can do so in an atmosphere of certainty.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords, I take it as pretty certain that there will ultimately be a referendum because, at some point, there will be a new treaty anyway. I totally agree with my noble friend Lady Liddell that any referendum produces economic costs and uncertainties, and that is why it is particularly regrettable that the Government have, quite unnecessarily, brought forward this entirely gratuitous Bill in this Session of Parliament to have a referendum at some point in the next Parliament. It would be much better if we left the matter until then.

However, I do not think that our labours are wasted because what we are producing today, were producing last week and will go on producing in the remaining days on which the Bill is under consideration, is a kind of template for any future referendum when it occurs. It will be clear to any Government what can and cannot get through the House of Lords. No Government will again be tempted to try to fiddle around with the main question to be asked on the referendum ballot paper, which we discussed last week. The Bill has now established that and it would not be sensible to change it. In future, Governments will be guided by the Electoral Commission’s views on what the proper question would be. Again, if we were to pass this amendment, it would be carried forward into any future Bill, even if this Bill were not to be passed and this referendum did not take place.

A few moments ago, the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said that if we had a referendum the country would have a very stark choice. I entirely agree. We all know that it will also be a very momentous choice, but it will actually be a rather uneven choice because the British public will be asked to choose between a known and an unknown—between an established and familiar fact on the one side and a purely hypothetical speculation on the other. It is very unfair and very dangerous to put the electorate in that position. It is dangerous because in those circumstances there is great scope, and therefore great temptation, for the promoters of the unknown option—those who, in this case, want to leave the European Union—to replace the unknown with a picture of their own devising which may be entirely fanciful, very wishful and even deliberately and cynically deceptive. That would be a very bad thing; it would be a very bad day for democracy to have a dishonest campaign of that kind. Therefore, it is very important that the electorate is able, as far as possible, to choose between two explicit descriptions of the two scenarios that are being offered. That is why I think that the amendment is enormously important.

There are some areas where a relatively reliable statement can be made about an unknown. For example, we all know that the Tory party does not like the Social Chapter. If we leave the European Union, we will not, by definition, be part of the Social Chapter, so it will be possible to say to people that there will not be a part-time workers directive or a parental leave directive, and anybody who is a part-time worker or who is thinking of having children will know where they stand. There are areas of greater uncertainty but they are ones where one can at least produce a reasonable description of the sort of scenario that might eventuate. For example, people are particularly concerned about whether we could still have access to the single market. There is a precedent in Norway and a precedent for EFTA, so there is a certain degree of credibility and responsibility in saying that there is certainly a likelihood that we could join EFTA if we wanted to. However, the rules of EFTA are quite clear—they have already been mentioned this morning—and it has already been explained why in many cases it would be very unsatisfactory to a great many of us.

However, there are areas where nothing certain at all can be said about what the position would be if we left the European Union today, and I fear that that is becoming increasingly likely in relation to the great area of access to the single market. Recently I have noticed that even those people who have been advocating our leaving the European Union have ceased to say, “Well, we could get a deal like Norway”. They have even ceased to say that we could get a deal like that of Switzerland. There is universal consensus on the continent among our partners and in the Commission that no one would ever be allowed to do a Swiss-type deal again. It is simply too complicated and difficult to administer with, I think, 140 separate agreements with the European Union. That type of scenario is out anyway, and anybody who takes a look at the situation will realise that it is not a possibility.

Therefore, one increasingly hears—we hear it increasingly often in this House—Eurosceptics and promoters of our leaving the European Union who say, “We’ll do better than Norway or Switzerland”. What do they mean by that? It seems to be far from clear. I detect in conversations with continental colleagues that in the type of circumstances in which we would leave the European Union there would be very little inclination to come up with special favours for us. Some have said, “Oh well, we have a deficit with the European Union. The rest of the European Union exports to us more than we export to them”. However, in point of fact, it is not a question of how big the deficit is for us or how substantial our imports or exports are; the leverage consists of the extent to which our trade is a proportion of the trade of our continental partners. It is generally never more than 25%. Therefore, I am afraid that we probably do not have a leverage.

In any case, there is no point in speculating about this, and it would be very dishonest to do so. It is important that a serious effort is made to sort out the consequences of our leaving the European Union. That should be set down in black and white by a Government who are then committed to making sure that they do not say anything which is deliberately untrue. They would have to have had serious discussions with our colleagues and partners in the rest of the European Union about what would and would not eventuate from our leaving. The British public could then be offered a genuinely honest choice between two scenarios, the details of which would have been set out as truthfully as possible.

[Lord Giddens]

I have not heard a single noble Lord object to the content of this amendment. The only one seems to be the “ram it through at all costs” objection. Could not the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, simply accept the amendment at this point?

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[Lord Teverson]

Yes, I do. I am just putting a principle. My noble friend kindly introduced this probing amendment, and I am exploring some of the issues.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

The noble Lord says that the vote should be based purely on citizenship, whether the voter is resident in this country or elsewhere. What is his view about citizens of the Irish republic who are resident here and are on the electoral roll?

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, I should state that I have dual Irish and British nationality. I am putting forward an argument. I do not think there is a perfect answer to this, but I would exclude purely Irish citizens under this definition. In fact, you could argue very strongly that the Republic of Ireland would be by far the most affected other EU member state and therefore perhaps you should include all Irish citizens. I do not think one could sustain that. I just want to make the point that as Britain we need to make up our mind on this area, and we need to be responsible for our decision. I do not think the argument is total, so I put forward a potential opposite view. I take a great interest in this small debate, but I do not think it is quite as straightforward as noble Lords who have spoken so far have said.

Immigration

Lord Davies of Stamford Excerpts

Tuesday 7th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, on my noble friend’s first question: yes, this is one of the benefits of the free movement of labour around the community, so if one country is doing better than another we can get a flow of labour to equalise things. On the second point, on benefit levels, it is not my responsibility to answer for the Home Office on migration issues.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords, amid all the unpleasantness in parts of the media over the past few weeks about Romanians and Bulgarians, has the noble Earl had the time to see the study recently published by a team from University College London, which shows that immigrants from the EU over the past 10 years have contributed far more in taxes and national insurance contributions than they have consumed in public services and in benefits, unlike the position of the native population? In other words, they have supplied us with a substantial financial and fiscal surplus, to the benefit of every taxpayer in this country. Is there not every probability that hard-working Romanians and Bulgarians will follow in the same footsteps?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the answer to the noble Lord’s last question is yes. On his first question, I handled business on that particular report. I cannot remember the precise details, but I broadly agree with the noble Lord’s thrust.

EU Council

Lord Davies of Stamford Excerpts

Monday 28th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I shall not resist the temptation to say that my noble friend has highlighted some of the dangers of joining the young liberals. I know that he makes a serious point about his concerns.

I am grateful for his support for the Statement more generally. I am sure that many will have heard his remarks about Hungary. As with all EU member states, Hungary is subject to clear obligations and has to adhere fully to the laws and values of the Union. I am sure my noble friend knows that earlier this year the Commission launched a detailed review to ensure that newly introduced legislation in Hungary was brought into line with accepted EU standards. I understand that Hungary has engaged with the Commission on that review and is making changes to its constitution that have addressed many of the concerns. We welcome Hungary’s engagement with the Commission on areas that fall within EU competence.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, quite rightly was given a lot of scope because what he said about Hungary was well said. The progress on deregulation at the summit and the decision not artificially to hold up the progress of the US-EU trade negotiations are welcome. They will of course take a long time anyway. Is the noble Lord aware of any member state other than the United Kingdom which has made a public statement that on a permanent basis it will not join the banking union that is being put together? Is he aware of the substantial evidence presented to your Lordships’ Sub-Committee A by a series of witnesses and experts to the effect that if we remain outside the banking union our financial services industry will have an increasing handicap competitively over a number of years and we will end up paying a significant economic price for doing that?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for what he said about progress on regulation. We keep chipping away at this and there has been progress. The fact that seven countries joined the UK in lending support to the report produced by the British Business Task Force shows that there has been a shift. The Prime Minister has been working hard in that respect, particularly with Chancellor Merkel. I am also grateful to the noble Lord for what he said about how vital the EU-US talks are. I understand the noble Lord’s views on banking union. Obviously, the Government take a different view and their position has not changed as a result of the recent European Council.

G8 Summit

Lord Davies of Stamford Excerpts

Wednesday 19th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

That is an extremely good question. I can tell the right reverend Prelate that the hope, expectation and intention coming out of the G8 is very much that some of this detailed work on tackling tax evasion, aggressive tax avoidance and transparency will be taken forward by the G20 and the OECD. Behind the simple, 10-point declaration that summarised the headline points at the summit is a much longer, more detailed communiqué that sets out the much more detailed steps of the sort to which the right reverend Prelate refers.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

Does the agreement at the G8 to ban ransom payments to terrorists, which is very welcome, include banning payments to pirates who capture individuals? The noble Lord has probably heard me say several times in the past three years that this problem is of at least equal dimension.

Woolwich and the EU Council

Lord Davies of Stamford Excerpts

Monday 3rd June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My right honourable friend the Prime Minister has made clear that in trying to address this issue he is keen to learn from a range of people. The Government already do that; they challenge people and can learn from that. However, I am not able to say whether we will be able to go as far as my noble friend specifically suggests.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords, the noble Lord said that lifting the EU arms embargo in Syria has provided the basis for individual member states to exercise some influence as and when they decide to sell arms. However, was not the lifting of the EU embargo itself potentially a major instrument of influence on both sides in the Syrian civil war? Would it not have been more sensible to have made lifting that embargo contingent on the behaviour of both parties, for example at the forthcoming Geneva talks? Have we not thrown away a particularly valuable diplomatic instrument rather prematurely?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

As I said in reply to an earlier question, clearly the Geneva talks are extremely important and we all want them to go as well as they possibly can. The argument in favour of the step that the French, British and other member states took last week was that the decision gives them greater flexibility. They and we are not saying that we want to take this step, but it gives us greater flexibility. We hope that that will lead to the kind of pressure to which the noble Lord refers, and to a sensible outcome at the Geneva 2 talks.

EU Council

Lord Davies of Stamford Excerpts

Monday 17th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Williamson of Horton, asks a straight question: how watertight is the agreement on the requirement to have a majority? If I may mix my metaphors, the agreement that was struck in this council is absolutely rock hard. I do not think that I can put it more strongly than that.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords, can the noble Lord go a bit further into banking unions? A banking union must contain two things. One is a supervisory regime, and it is clear what has been agreed there; it is perfectly satisfactory. However, it must also contain provisions for bank resolution. Can the noble Lord tell us in greater detail how this will work? In particular, if the ECB has to bail out an institution in the future to prevent a systemic threat, where will the requisite funds come from and what arrangements have already been made to ensure that those funds will be available on the day they are required?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, that is a good question but I will not be tempted to get into the details of this, because they have not been finally agreed within the eurozone. Final conclusions on that will need to be come to over the course of the next few months.

European Council

Lord Davies of Stamford Excerpts

Monday 26th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My noble friend reiterates a position that he has held for some time. Indeed, he has been very much in the vanguard of this thinking. I agree that there is a lot wrong with the centralised, bureaucratised and expensive European Commission and how it operates that needs to be sorted out. The EU itself faces its own internal crises, not least within the countries of the eurozone, but all that is an opportunity for those who think like my noble friend to come forward with proper modernisation, as he called it—proper reforms that I believe would command a great deal of support within both Houses of Parliament and throughout the rest of Europe. He is right in saying that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister is dealing with these negotiations in entirely the correct manner.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords, has the noble Lord ever considered that our national influence in Brussels on this and other subjects would be enhanced—and therefore the national interest would be advanced—if the Government occasionally displayed some real, positive commitment towards our membership of the European Union, or even actual enthusiasm for it, rather than constantly carping, complaining and often threatening to leave? Would not such a more positive attitude better reflect the interests of the British people? Almost every subject on which the people of this country feel most strongly—whether it is prosperity within the single market, the future of world trade negotiations, our ability to respond to the challenge of climate change, our ability to cope with the threats of organised crime and terrorism, or the future peace and stability of our own region and regions around us on this planet—depends for its resolution on a cohesive and successful European Union. That must be part of the solution, not part of the problem, as the Government keep trying falsely to represent.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I think that the noble Lord is unduly pessimistic and that he exaggerates. There is no threat to leave; not from the Prime Minister, not from the Foreign Secretary, not from me—

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

Mr Gove.

[Lord Strathclyde]

Nor from anybody else. There are those who suggest that at some stage there might need to be a referendum, and there may, but we will need to see what that will be about. On the contrary, I think that the noble Lord has completely misunderstood: we are very positive about the European Union, but a Europe which is cohesive and successful does not need to be bureaucratic, centralising and expensive. One needs only to hear my noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford talking with such enthusiasm about what a reformed Europe could look like to know the truth of that. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Davies, has exaggerated the position of the Government.

Energy: Nuclear Power

Lord Davies of Stamford Excerpts

Tuesday 29th May 2012 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many nuclear power stations they intend to see built, for what capacity and over what timescale.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland)]

My Lords, the Government have identified eight sites as potentially suitable for new nuclear power stations. The nuclear power industry has set out plans to develop up to 16 gigawatts of new nuclear power in the UK by 2025. Two consortia are committed to plans to build up to 10 gigawatts of new capacity. We believe that the UK is an attractive place to develop new nuclear.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords, there has been a large measure of bipartisanship on this issue since the 2007 White Paper—which is a good thing, because long-term investment clearly requires a long-term investment framework. However, was not that Answer somewhat complacent? The Minister did not say that we are only 10 years away from the date when we were supposed to replace all the AGRs and that not a single firm commitment has been made to build a single station. He also never mentioned that two of the most promising investors—E.ON and RWE—have just pulled out. Is it not time for the Government, including the Prime Minister and the Chancellor, to display a greater degree of urgency on this matter? Do they not also need to take a slightly more pragmatic and flexible view of financial models and counterparty arrangements, including arrangements that might be necessary although they are contrary to the coalition agreement?

[Lord Marland]

My Lords, I should like first to thank all noble Lords for their support for the nuclear endeavour—it has been cross-party, as the noble Lord mentioned. I was not quite sure whether the noble Lord was not attacking his own party, because we have had 13 years of no activity in new nuclear. It has been 27 years since a new nuclear power station has been commissioned. We are on the cusp of commissioning a new station in this country, at Hinkley Point. By December 2012, despite all the difficulties that we have encountered with Fukushima and things like that, the planning process will be before the Secretary of State for him to opine on.

EU Council

Lord Davies of Stamford Excerpts

Tuesday 31st January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, if those were his motivations, there would be nothing wrong in that. In fact, the Prime Minister made it entirely clear in response to questions and in his Statement on the December Council that his only aim was to preserve British interests. At the December Council, he asked for certain safeguards and those safeguards were not offered. Hence, we have got to the current position.

As the noble Lord knows extremely well, we have a number of legal concerns about the treaty, particularly on the use of the EU institutions, but, as I said, it is in our national interest for the eurozone to solve its problems. That is why we are reserving our position. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, asks my noble friend Lord Howell questions from time to time. He will have an opportunity to have another go in a couple of weeks’ time, when we are having an all-day debate on the European Union.

We will be watching developments very carefully over the next few weeks and months, and if there is any sign that they will encroach, particularly on the single market, we will seek to take appropriate action.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords, it is at least reassuring that the Prime Minister now appears to be conducting our diplomacy in the EU in a cool, calm and reasoned fashion, although it is very worrying that we shall not, apparently, even be in the room as observers when the 25 meet regularly from now on.

However, I sincerely congratulate the Government on their contribution to the achievement of the single market conclusions of the Council, particularly in relation to energy. I hope that there will be follow-through and implementation.

If Greece defaults, which it may, there may be contagion. If there is contagion, there would be a very serious banking crisis. In those circumstances, it would be extremely expensive for us to bail out our banks. Would it not be much cheaper now to make a more modest contribution to the new financial stability fund, the IMF or otherwise to the firewall which we keep nagging our European partners that they should be putting together without us, up to now, being willing to contribute at all?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, it is not my role, nor that of the Government, nor is it appropriate to speculate on the position of Greece. Greece has to make its own decisions on that question. Our view is that it is important that all parties should stick to the deal agreed in October and that all the elements of that package, including the PSI, are finalised and implemented without further delay. We are not contributing directly to more bailouts of the eurozone, as the noble Lord knows. One thing that we agreed earlier through the new ESM is that we are extracting the United Kingdom from having to pay for eurozone bailouts in future. IMF payments are of course an entirely different matter, but we believe that the IMF is there to lend support to a country, not to a currency.

European Council

Lord Davies of Stamford Excerpts

Monday 12th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I spelt out in some detail what safeguards we asked for in reply to the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition, so I will not repeat them. However, the noble Lord has asked a good question to which people will want to know the answer: why did we exercise the veto at the start of the process? It is my understanding that the French made it absolutely plain that under no circumstances would they accept the safeguards that the Prime Minister was asking for. At that stage, the Prime Minister had absolutely no choice if he was going to continue in good faith. That is why he took the decision that he did.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords—

[Lord Brittan of Spennithorne]

My Lords—

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[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, we very much want to retain goodwill and there is no reason why we should not do so. I say again that it is not yet entirely clear what role is being proposed for the EU institutions. We will want to look carefully at the details of what is proposed. No doubt we shall do so over the course of the next few months.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords, does it not beggar belief to suppose that anybody could be so stupid or incompetent, if he really believed that there was a threat to national interests from a prospective change in financial service regulation in the EU, as to engineer a situation in which henceforth such regulation will be discussed and in practice decided in a context in which we will not even be in the room? Is it not absolutely clear that it was not national interests at all that drove the Prime Minister but party political interest and the desire to curry back the favour of the Tory Eurosceptics who gave him such a hard time last Wednesday? Does the Leader not think that the country is intelligent enough to see through the propaganda that they have heard this afternoon and to realise that the Prime Minister has played with the national interest for party political reasons?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, only the noble Lord could come out with that particular quip. Of course we feared the dangers to our national interests or we would not have said what we did. It takes two to agree but it also takes two to disagree. The other 26 could have wholly accepted that we had a deep concern about our national interest and agreed with us. Then there would have been a treaty of the 27.