Infrastructure Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Davies of Oldham and Lord Jenkin of Roding(9 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, while agreeing with everything that my noble friend Lord Teverson said, I would like to make particular mention of my noble friend Lady Verma’s readiness to listen to the arguments on Part 4 concerning the community electricity right. The concession that the Government made on the timing of the power to introduce regulations has been widely welcomed by the renewables industry. It was very wise, and I was extremely grateful when my noble friend signalled that there would be an amendment on Report; I said so at the time.
I, too, thank both Ministers for their part in the Bill and, in his absence, my noble friend Lord Ahmad, who played quite a notable part in the whole question of planning and other responsibilities that fell to his department. I also echo what was said earlier by my noble friend Lady Kramer about the Bill team. They have been extraordinarily helpful. I do not mind at all if, when one raises a point at a private meeting, one receives a very good explanation from one of my noble friends’ staff. Although it is always nice to get letters from one’s noble friends who are Ministers, to have such an authoritative statement from an official is equally helpful, and I thank them very much for that.
This has been a remarkable example of the House of Lords at its best in its role of scrutinising and revising legislation. There are still one or two issues which are not fully resolved, but it is with some relief that we will send the Bill to another place where, perhaps, they can be aired again.
As many noble Lords will have learnt, it is my intention to retire from the House shortly, and I am making it clear to anyone who cares that this will be the last Bill on which I will take an active part. I have enormously valued the opportunity to do that, and I look forward to what is now being called the valedictory speech—which is not today, it will come later—that retiring Peers will be entitled to make under the provisions of the report of the Procedure Committee. I have enjoyed it; I think we really have made a difference; and I think that that is what this House is for.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, as the House is in congratulatory mood, I briefly congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin. I first met his formidable intellect, advantages and knowledge on energy Bills a decade or so ago, when we went through a very long energy Bill. From what I can recall, he was present for virtually every minute of a Bill that went through 13 days or so in Committee, to say nothing of the extensive consideration elsewhere. Others will have the chance to congratulate him later, but with regard to this Bill, he has displayed his usual insight and talent to improve the legislation. I also, of course, second his point about congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, and the Bill team—although I may say that they have only started the long road. I predict challenges yet to come on all parts of the Bill but in the area of fracking, I think that they will have quite an interesting time in the other place.
Infrastructure Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Davies of Oldham and Lord Jenkin of Roding(9 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)
My Lords, the House will know that we have been supportive of this new regulator and have very much welcomed its creation. Of course, the Wood review suggested that the measures within it would increase, as the Minister has indicated, the production of oil and gas from the North Sea by a third—and in doing so produce an additional 3 billion to 4 billion barrels, with a wholesale value of around £200 billion over the next 20 years. Those are significant numbers and anything that helps to produce figures of that kind to the advantage of our people and our economy is, of course, greatly to be welcomed.
This measure was welcomed by the industry although there were concerns about the power of the regulator to interfere with commercial arrangements. These amendments would remove the ability of the regulator to alter commercial arrangements. Therefore, I must say, they appear to water down its powers. We understand the anxiety about the commercial arrangements but if this change is necessary to ensure that investment is not deterred, we need to hear from the Minister the extent to which it can be said to have substantially altered the regulator’s power. If it has not made any significant change, what is the rationale behind these amendments?
Did the Government consult Sir Ian Wood before developing these amendments and, if so, what was his response? Obviously, it is important that we have his views if these amendments represent a significant change to the regulator, which we as the Opposition have fears that they do. The fundamental question prompted by this change is whether the regulator still has the required authority to encourage greater co-operation and asset-sharing, and, following on from that, whether the Government see the regulator as a facilitator or as someone who can insist on co-operation. I hope the Minister will recognise that our anxieties that the amendments might represent a weakening of the power of the regulator need to be allayed.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, it needs to be remembered—indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Davies, has acknowledged—that the industry very much welcomed the report of Sir Ian Wood.
Noble Lords will remember that perhaps the most important recommendation that Sir Ian Wood made was that in future if we are to maximise the economic recovery of oil and gas, there needs to be a tripartite partnership of the Government, the industry and the regulator. The industry signed up to that. That has been the basis of the substantial amendments which were moved in Committee with the intention of implementing the Wood review, and I am on record as having welcomed them very warmly.
I am aware of the concerns which have been voiced by the industry—to which the noble Lord, Lord Davies, has referred—but I take much comfort in the recent appointment of Andy Samuel as the chief executive officer of the Oil and Gas Authority. As my right honourable friend Mr Davey announced in the Statement last week:
“This is a significant milestone in the establishment of the OGA and demonstrates our commitment to the UK’s oil and gas industry and implementing Sir Ian’s recommendations”.—[Official Report, Commons, 6/11/14; col. 53WS.]
It has to be remembered that Andy Samuel has a very long background in the industry. He will understand as well as anybody the problems of getting industry members— hitherto seen as competing with each other all the time—to work together in this tripartite arrangement. Therefore, while I understand the concerns, I do not share the problem of the noble Lord, Lord Davies, because I think the industry is well placed to take this forward and achieve the very substantial advantages of additional production and national revenue that were outlined. I think these amendments are probably necessary to reassure the industry but I believe the industry is firmly committed to the tripartite partition for which Sir Ian called.
Infrastructure Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Davies of Oldham and Lord Jenkin of Roding(9 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Jenkin of Roding (Con)
My Lords, I yield entirely to the noble Lords, Lord Whitty and Lord Berkeley, for their huge expertise in this field. I have not attempted to master all the details. However, there was one point made by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, which I am not sure I correctly understood. It was about the licence. My attention was drawn to the Written Statement that was issued by the Government. Indeed, my noble friend on the Front Bench repeated a Statement made by her colleague, the right honourable John Hayes. He was talking about the draft licence, which is a new document that was issued six days ago. I shall come back to that point in a moment. It states that the licence,
“indicates the manner in which the Secretary of State proposes to issue binding statutory directions and guidance to the new company, setting objectives and conditions around how the company must act”.—[Official Report, Commons, 28/10/14; col. 18WS.]
I do not think that there is anything obscure about that; it is perfectly clear that the licence is issued by the Secretary of State. In those circumstances, the Secretary of State can clearly be held responsible if it does not work properly. But it may be that I misunderstood the noble Lord, Lord Whitty.
The Statement from which I quoted was issued less than a week ago and announces the publication of several substantial new documents which bear on Part 1 of the Infrastructure Bill. I fear that the Government have got themselves into rather a bad habit of publishing documents very shortly before Parliament has to consider them, leaving those of us who perhaps do not have the resources behind us that some may have to find it very difficult to catch up with it all. The most recent example—I do not hold my noble friend Lady Kramer responsible for this—is something that we will debate on Wednesday: the community electricity scheme. A task force looking at exactly that issue has been sitting for a year, but its report was made available only this morning. When I first came into the House, it was not even available in the Printed Paper Office, so I am afraid that I rang up the department concerned and expressed my displeasure, if I may put it in neutral language.
I have to say to my noble friend on the Front Bench that that is no way to treat Parliament. If the Government get into difficulties on some of these issues, it is because officials have been allowed to drag their feet to the point when things are issued only a matter of days before they have to be debated. I leave my noble friend with that thought.
Finally, I should say how much I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw. I am sure that we have to come to some form of road pricing in future, if we are to make sense of this. There has been a huge increase in road traffic and no sign of it declining. The fact of the matter is that, while people of course pay the petrol duty, the licence and other taxes, that is in no way related to the amount of use that they make of the roads. I am quite sure that we will have to come back to that at some stage, and it may be something that emerges from the revised structure being set up in this Bill. As I said at Second Reading, I totally support it, and think it a very good move, but the revised structure may well bring these questions of how it is to be paid for much more to the fore. Then we may have the sort of reform that my noble friend Lord Bradshaw advocated.
Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)
My Lords, I can keep my own contribution relatively brief because my noble friends Lord Whitty and Lord Berkeley have presented the case with great clarity. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, for pointing out that we are dealing today with a position that is only six days old—the latest change from the Government to this crucial part of the proposals in the Bill. That is to say nothing of the fact that the fracking aspect of the Bill came months after we had considered it in Committee, which was then held up until the Government had concluded their consultation in the summer. So this is not a Bill distinguished by forward planning from the Government, or by a clear rationale of what they are about. However, I suppose I should thank them for having another shot at improving the Bill.
We are pleased to see changes reflective of the representations made in Committee from this side of the House, but we are no clearer on why delivering long-term certainty for roads investment requires a top-down reorganisation of the Highways Agency. The Cook report told us that it is stop-start funding problems that are leading to inefficiencies of between 15% and 20%. Is there any real evidence proving that changing the legal structure of the Highways Agency will, in itself, improve efficiency? Perhaps top-down reorganisation is the metier of this Government in challenging areas. The Minister will be aware of the strength of the concern on our side that this looks like the first step to privatisation. We continue to have that anxiety. Why is the section on the company’s licence for commercial activity and charging for services still unfinished?
We are concerned about the cost implications. There is still no clarity on whether the SHC will be able to reclaim VAT in the same way that the Highways Agency does at present. In Committee, the Minister said that the SHC would not be required to pay VAT, which is exactly the case with the Highways Agency now. That soon cleared up the issue. However, it did not clear up the issue at the other end, because the Minister in the Treasury, David Gauke, in answer to a Question from my honourable friend in the other place, Richard Burden MP, said:
“New bodies are not automatically covered by the … provisions. However, the Department for Transport and HM Treasury are considering this issue”.
HMT is quite important, here, with regard to revenue and dispensations to other departments. It does not seem to be as clear on the matter as the Department for Transport is maintaining that it is. If the new strategic highways authority is no longer able to recover VAT in the same way, that could lead to losses of a considerable amount—as much as £400 million annually. That would be £4 billion over 10 years, which would dwarf the figure of efficiency gains of £2.6 billion that it is proposed will come from the legislation. If the VAT issue is not resolved, therefore, the justification for this reorganisation is even less substantiated.
Turning to Amendment 4, which is in my name, the Minister used two arguments in Committee to reject our attempts to clarify whether the Government envision having more than one company. One argument was that this is only standard legal drafting and there should be no cause for concern. The Minister went on to say that it might be necessary if one wanted a more regional structure for the equivalent of the strategic highways company. Can she not confirm that the Highways Agency is already structured regionally? There appears to be confused thinking within the Government about how many companies there will be, which is why many are concerned that the Government are not being entirely open about their plans for the future.
It is clear that our main reservations about the major government proposal in the Bill have not been assuaged. As my noble friends have indicated, there are other questions, too, to which the Minister needs to respond to convince us that this proposal is acceptable.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, I have listened to the argument with interest and some incredulity. Seeking to compare the number of deaths on the railways with the number of deaths on the roads ignores major differences between the two forms of transport. The roads are essentially a matter for individual drivers and many accidents and deaths are caused by serious driver error. It can be because the vehicles have not been properly inspected. Older vehicles always have to have annual road testing. Of course, there are many other causes, such as the terrible bonfire that swept smoke right across the motorway and caused serious accidents. But none of those can conceivably be laid at the door of the highways authority.
The design of the roads, signposting, warning signs and a whole range of things are the responsibility of the highways authority and would be the responsibility of the strategic road company, but a great many of the issues for which the strategic highways authority would be made directly responsible—the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, talked about legal liability—cannot conceivably be laid at the door of that authority. The language that he has used in his various amendments simply does not draw the distinction between issues that are clearly the responsibility of other authorities, notably the whole question of licensing, inspection and testing of vehicles and the question of skills of drivers and so forth. I do not see how the highways authority could be made responsible for all that.
I studied the noble Lord’s amendment and listened to his eloquent speech in which he made it clear that he has a very real interest, although non-pecuniary, in road safety, but it is overstepping the mark to try to lay the liability for that sort of thing at the doors of the strategic highways authority. I will listen to what my noble friend says having studied her amendments on this issue with interest. For the moment, I am not persuaded on this occasion by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I pay tribute to the Government for having listened carefully to what was said in Committee, where pressure was exerted from this side of the House for greater clarity of the functions of the highway company. We are grateful for the progress that has been made in the indications from the Government that they accept some of these arguments. But Amendment 15, to which the Opposition are also committed, does not offend in any way in the manner that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, indicated. What it says is that the highways company shall be responsible for the road safety performance of the network. We are talking about the strategic network and it is essential that we recognise that we want enhanced performance over road safety, because in recent years there have been anxieties about the decline in safety for our fellow citizens on the roads.
The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, said that the same criteria as for railways were being applied. What is indicated in the amendment is that the Office of Rail Regulation will be concerned with the monitoring role, and that is where the overlap occurs. It is not contended on this side of the House, as he will recognise, that there could be any anticipation that the same degree of security could be achieved on roads as on a carefully regulated railway. We are very proud in this country of the excellent safety figures of the railway network, leaving aside level crossings, which, as we know, are a perennial problem for the railway. Regarding roads, it is clear that we want all the factors—a fact which the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, enumerated—and we want enhanced performance in those areas. Clearly the strategic highways company has a very important role to play. That is why we support Amendment 15.
Infrastructure Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Davies of Oldham and Lord Jenkin of Roding(9 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, we have major doubts about whether the Passengers’ Council will provide an adequate forum for the public response, so we want to take the opportunity in this new legislation of not just renaming the body, but of widening its perspective. I have tabled two amendments which seek to ensure that the interests of cyclists and pedestrians would form part of the perspective of the strategic highways company, and that the needs of local communities are taken fully on board. Major road schemes clearly have an impact on all communities. However, both of my amendments can more than safely be withdrawn because they are overwhelmed by the more extensive and detailed series of amendments which have been put down by my noble friend Lord Berkeley, and typically my noble friend Lord Judd has backed the winning side. I will certainly not move my amendments when we come to them, and I have a great deal of sympathy with what my noble friend Lord Berkeley has said.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, with great interest, and I have been pondering for a few minutes whether in fact he is right. My mind goes back, if I am allowed to reminisce, to when the then Government were planning the motorway network. At one stage this involved taking the M11 motorway from London up towards Cambridge and then to join the A14, and it went slap bang through the middle of my constituency, Wanstead and Woodford. Initially my constituents were pretty horrified by this, as indeed was I. This urban area was proposed to have, in effect, a four-lane dual carriageway going from Hackney Wick towards Epping Forest.
The Minister of Transport at the time was my noble friend—as he now is—Lord Fowler, and his junior Minister was my right honourable friend Kenneth Clarke. I persuaded the Minister that they should come and spend a morning with me in Wanstead, which was the part of my constituency that would be most dramatically affected. They came to the perfectly wise conclusion that that part of the road should go underground. It would involve a cut-and-cover operation, which eventually happened.
Once that announcement had been made, though, overwhelmingly my constituents said, “Well then, get on with it”. They did not want constant delay. However, and this is the point that I want to make to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, it was held up for nearly eight years by a series of demonstrations supported by precisely the environmental bodies that he mentioned, and others. Some of them were quite clearly anarchists. They rechristened the area of Wanstead Green “Wanstonia” and declared independence, and all that sort of nonsense. The courts became bogged down with a series of cases to try to get them out, which held up the process for years to the increasing fury of my constituents, virtually none of whom took part in those demonstrations. The demonstrators were all from outside and were the kind of people who live for demonstrating. That is what makes them tick; it is their new religion. I can tell the Committee that that caused enormous irritation in the area. Now, of course, if anyone drives up to Cambridge by that route they go through the cut-and-cover and it is entirely sensible, and people say, “But why couldn’t it be done before?”.
I question whether it is possible that the monitor should regard, as it were, the CPRE and bodies like that as within its remit. It is monitoring the transport system. It is for the planning system to determine whether or not the environmental consequences are acceptable. I do not believe that the monitor should have anything to do with it. There are already enough obstacles. We are debating in another Bill the question of judicial review, because that can also be a great obstacle to getting a transport system properly up and running because of local nimbys and so on. When one is dealing with road and rail—look at what is already happening with HS2—there are enough obstacles in the way already. What we should be arguing about here, in an infrastructure Bill, is ensuring that what we want to produce actually happens without undue delay.
I hope that we shall never see anything again remotely like what happened in my constituency and indeed in other areas around the country, as plenty of former Members of Parliament will be able to testify. That has been one of the biggest obstacles to getting a modern road and rail network, and it does not seem to me that the monitor can have anything to do with that at all.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
I do not want to prolong this, but is that not the function of the planning system rather than of a body that is monitoring the strategic highways company and the railways? There is a separate planning system, which is going through Parliament at the moment with regards to HS2 and which has nothing whatever to do with the Office of Rail Regulation. It is a planning system and I think that these two things should be kept entirely separate.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I, too, have memories of motorways. The M25 went around the north of the constituency that I represented, in Enfield. The only tunnel constructed on the M25 was there, in order to protect the interests of my constituents. Subsequently there was an additional tunnel in order to protect a great deal of Epping Forest, which I also greatly supported. However, our negotiations and discussions were nothing to do with planning authorities; we had to deal with the Department of Transport and the excessive, terrifying costs of what is involved in tunnelling. That is why the M25 is a circular route 125 miles long but has only one tunnel, which is constructed as far as the immediate neighbourhood’s interests are concerned. It was nothing to do with planning; the Department of Transport had to answer.
Infrastructure Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Davies of Oldham and Lord Jenkin of Roding(9 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I am in great danger of running into the same brick wall of a government response as my noble friend Lord Whitty. It was an interesting response: “We are creating a new company; we are setting out a new strategy for roads; we have a five-year programme; and we are talking seriously about infrastructure. Please do not come to us with any suggestions of what considerations such infrastructure developments should take into account”.
My noble friend Lord Whitty tried to analyse the road investment strategy and what that might involve in terms of wider consideration. I will deal with the national networks policy statement, with exactly the same objective. I see no point in the Government arguing that they have got improved machinery but reined-in objectives. In circumstances where wider society is clear that what it wants from our infrastructure is greater integration and greater realisation of the relative impact of public expenditure in one area upon another, I do not see how the Minister can maintain that these things are too burdensome. It is not too burdensome to include in the Bill the possibility, some period further on, that there may be more than one company. It is not too burdensome to have a decade-forward look at certain aspects of the legislation.
With these amendments, we suggest the road investment strategy will need to take account of its impact on local road systems and will need to consider the links between other significant parts of the transport infrastructure, such as ports and airports. If we had not had the built-in five-year delay on the decision regarding an additional runway in the south-east, we would currently be discussing infrastructure in relation to aviation as well as roads. The Minister maintains that there cannot be a case for pressing additional obligations on the strategy. I do not accept that. I do not see why we should not ask, as Amendment 29 does, the Secretary of State to provide the strategic highways company with a survey on the condition of the local and strategic road networks. I do not see why we cannot envisage increased co-operation with Network Rail. I know we cannot flick a switch overnight and deal with such complex issues as if they are givens to immediately act on, but unless we have the objectives then the whole concept of the integration and improvement of infrastructure over a period of time disappears.
I listened very carefully to the Minister’s reply to my noble friend Lord Whitty. I understand what she is driving at, in that we cannot take everything on board at the same time. However, we are not suggesting an enormous increased cost as far as the road investment strategy is concerned; we are suggesting that it should have the perspective to understand what integration and development of the infrastructure is all about. That means that the Government should give serious consideration to this group of amendments, as well as to the previous group, introduced by my noble friend Lord Whitty, which seek to guarantee that our improved investment strategy for infrastructure will take in all the factors that wider society regards as being germane to transport improvement. I beg to move.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
I would like to put a question to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, about his amendment. I believe I am right in saying that local authorities already have a very effective system for regularly analysing the state of local roads, the investment that needs to be made to bring them up to standard and what it will cost, called the ALARM system. What is wrong with that? If they have that already, why write something more into the Bill? I merely ask the question. Maybe the noble Lord can answer when he winds up at the end of the debate, and perhaps my noble friend might like to comment on that in the course of her reply.
I understand, of course, that different parts of the road structure will have an impact on each other. I would have thought that would be covered by the duties of consulting that my noble friend referred to in relation to earlier amendments. This will be an integral part of the operation of the strategic highways company. There is already a very good system, as I understand it. One sees headlines in the newspapers every year about the state of local roads and what needs to be spent to bring them up to standard. If there is a headline word that has entered into the public consciousness, it is “potholes”.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, through these amendments, the noble Lord, Lord Davies, and others seek to ensure that the impact of the road investment strategy on the various local road networks and other transport infrastructure is considered. This is an important argument, and I need to be clear that, through the licence, we are requiring the strategic highways company to have an asset management strategy. Understanding the condition of its assets is absolutely key to this.
The condition and performance of the local road network are, as the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, clearly outlined, matters for the local highway authority. Frankly, we would not wish to include in the Bill a requirement to survey the condition of local roads, because its focus is the strategic road network. We are not anxious to usurp authorities’ powers. I share the assessment of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, that the tasks are currently well carried out by local authorities, which, I suspect, would not want to surrender a lot of resources and have the task taken over by a centralised body.
That said, we want this new company to co-operate with its partner road networks. The route strategies, with which I think many of your Lordships will be familiar, are a key source of information in developing the road investment strategy. They provide local authorities and, by extension, local highway authorities with a mechanism to work with the new company and thus ensure that the impact on the local road networks of interventions on the strategic road network is considered. We think that that will be an extremely effective mechanism and it is well provided for in the legislation as it stands.
In addition, as part of the changes elsewhere in the Bill, the company will, as I have said before, become a traffic authority. That is new and means that it will be subject to the network management duty—a legal obligation on all local traffic authorities to ensure, among other things, that traffic flows smoothly from one jurisdiction to another. At present, the Highways Agency is not subject to this requirement, so this will be a new guarantee of co-operation.
I could start to list the kind of support that we are offering for local roads but, setting aside our significant financial contribution, I also want to make it clear that we are supporting efforts by local authorities to share knowledge and best practice under the highways maintenance efficiency programme, as well as encouraging co-operation and common procurement. There is therefore a gathering momentum to achieve much more co-operation and partnership working, which will continue under the new arrangements.
I talked earlier about aligning road and rail investment strategies, so I will not repeat that. Instead, I shall use this occasion to underscore how much we recognise that there is significant value in Network Rail and the new strategic highways company working together on the kinds of issues that your Lordships have listed. However, we do not think that you need a legislative mechanism to try to prescribe how those two companies should work together. We would find it extraordinary if they chose not to, and I doubt that the Secretary of State would permit them to ignore each other in that way.
It is entirely appropriate that the road investment strategy and the new company’s response to it will have due regard to the national network’s national policy statement—that is a mouthful. However, it would not be appropriate to create a formal link between what is a planning document and what is, in effect, a funding and investment plan. The two documents align but there is not a hierarchy between them.
On that basis, looking through the details of the amendments, we think that the underlying issues that are of concern to your Lordships are already addressed. Therefore, we feel that the amendments are not needed and we hope very much that the noble Lord will feel comfortable in withdrawing the one he has moved.
Civil Aviation Bill
Debate between Lord Davies of Oldham and Lord Jenkin of Roding(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Jenkin of Roding
Certainly, the question of paying for it would have to be considered in some detail. The great advantage of the Foster + Partners proposal as put forward is that they recognise that this would be financed not by the taxpayer but by investment which they would attract perhaps from around the world. There should be a great deal of investment interest in a project of this kind. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, is absolutely right, of course, that when this goes to the IPC or its successor, this is precisely the sort of thing that would need to be demonstrated, along with all the other things that the planning system requires. If, however, the Department for Transport is unable to meet the proponents of such a scheme, it will start with not one but two hands behind its back. That is why I have pressed my noble friend to say that in the context of the HS2 consultation he will meet the people concerned, and I very much hope that his officials will feel that it is appropriate for him to do so.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, the Minister’s worst nightmare must have been fulfilled from this opening debate—namely, because the Committee has, quite appropriately, addressed itself to what the amendment says about surface transport, and of course that then gives a wide range of exciting prospects on how we could improve surface transport. I will put my three penn’orth in if I may. Manchester Airport is very eager that the metro should be part of its facilities. It is some distance away at present. The airport is certainly prepared to face a proportion of the costs. We have heard the anxieties and proposals for the necessary improvement to surface transport to our airports expressed in very cogent terms. The danger is that that will open up a very wide-ranging discussion, as we have heard.
The Minister may have the obvious consolation, which the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, and I identified, that most of these issues cannot possibly be covered by an extension to the remit of the CAA. We are largely talking about transport projects of the greatest significance, linking our major centres of population to our airports through improvements, which are certainly necessary to all the London airports. Apart from Birmingham, which already boasts excellent rail communication and has great expectations for HS2, all airports recognise that the ease with which people can arrive at them is absolutely critical to the experience and choice of travelling by air. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, indicated, I doubt that this substantial range of transport issues is meant to be laid at the door of the CAA. I imagine that the Minister, while commenting constructively, as I hope he will, in response to Members of the Committee on ideas for improving connections, will say that this is not a matter with which we can directly charge the CAA.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
I am assured that it does, so that is fine. No doubt my noble friend will explain that.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, given that the Bill has been through the other place without this debate being advanced there to any degree, we are grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rotherwick, for his introduction of these amendments. I will be very interested in the Minister’s response. We can all see that the primary responsibility of the CAA in respect of regulated airports means that any aspect of general aviation may be pretty low in its priorities, although some aspects of business aviation have other advantages to the country. However, I must counter some of the rosier views of general aviation with an obvious point. The last time that private flying came to the attention of the general public was in the case of the individual who went up in his private aircraft each night to avoid a day on British soil counting against him and affecting his tax returns. So there is another side to private aviation.
I am very guarded about this but I have some sympathy with the points that the noble Lord, Lord Rotherwick, put forward. He may have over-egged the pudding with all three amendments. I will be most interested in the Minister’s response to Amendment 3. It merely asks that these interests are promoted and safeguarded, which seems a fairly minimal requirement.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Davies of Oldham and Lord Jenkin of Roding(13 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord Jenkin of Roding
I was a member of the Treasury team when VAT was first introduced in 1972. It was one of the principles of the then Government that it should be as simple a tax as possible. There were of course some major exclusions from VAT, for instance all food and children’s clothes, but I well remember my noble friend Lord Higgins, who was dealing with the Finance Bill, saying that it was a simple uniform tax to be extended across the range of products and services, apart from those that were specifically excluded.
Since then Governments, no doubt of all persuasions, have found themselves led down a path of adding more complications to VAT. I have sympathy with what my noble friend has suggested, because these are clearly energy-saving and carbon-saving measures, which one would wish to encourage. However, to use VAT and the tax system to do that seems to me to go against the principle of keeping VAT as simple a tax as possible.
VAT is now substantially higher than it was when it was first introduced, for reasons that we can all understand, although that is not within the competence of the Committee. Wisely, my noble friend’s amendment places this firmly in the hands of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, although it could not be with anybody else, as my right honourable friend the Chancellor is the Minister in charge of the tax system. However, I sound a note of caution on beginning to extend lower rates of VAT to other services and products, notwithstanding that one might have some sympathy with what is being sought. Having said that, I should be interested to hear what the Minister has to say in reply.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, is right to remind us that exempting certain goods from the normal rate of VAT is a matter for the Treasury. We are all too well aware that the Treasury looks at these issues with a sharp eye and intensive scrutiny at any time, but in this age of austerity that position is likely to be intensified. As the noble Lord indicated, the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, is seeking to build on the 5 per cent reduced rate of VAT that already applies to a number of installations that relate to energy conservation, both to encourage householders to install energy-saving facilities and as a clear earnest of the Government’s intent that these issues are significant enough for us to look at them in this regard, albeit not quite as we do food and children’s clothes, which attract no VAT. Nevertheless, the 5 per cent rate relates to a clear priority area; it is an exclusive area. In her amendment, the noble Baroness wants to extend that area.
I am not in the slightest doubt about the merits of doing that and I think that, in the framework of the Bill, we should indicate that we think that this will give substance to the Bill’s principles. However, like the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, I acknowledge—no doubt the Minister will also indicate this to the Committee—that it is difficult to write Budgets in the framework of energy legislation when that is the preserve of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Treasury. I would not be at all surprised if we had a somewhat guarded response to the amendment. However, we already have provision of the reduced rate in this area and the amendment would not add a great deal, although the Treasury might argue that the cost would be significant. Nevertheless, the amendment fits in with the pattern of reduced rates of VAT in this area and I hope that the Minister will indicate that, at the very least, the Government have an open mind on the issue.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, I am conscious that we are nearing the usual time for the Committee to adjourn so I will try to be brief. I just make a point by way of introduction. Nobody reading this amendment could have a clue what it was about. The reason for that is that it is a striking example of the Bill adopting the process of legislation by reference to earlier Bills. I am sorry my noble friend Lord Marland is not here. I have raised this matter with the Law Commission because the gas and electricity Acts are now virtually indecipherable; it is impossible to find one’s way around them. It is high time that there was a consolidation. Having said that, I will move on.
The real problem that the amendment addresses is that one of the provisions of the Energy Act 2004 that is being applied to this Bill is Section 157. Section 157(2) established three grounds on which an energy supply company can be put into administration. One is that the company is unable to pay its debts. Another is that it would be just and equitable, under Section 124A of the Insolvency Act, to wind up the company in the public interest—for instance to stop fraud or criminal activity. The third ground—this is what the amendment is about—is that the court must be satisfied that the company is likely to be unable to pay its debts. The 2004 Act applied to network companies; this Bill would apply it to supply companies. My amendment would delete that third ground—of a company being likely to be unable to pay its debts—for administration as it would apply to supply companies.
To put it in layman’s terms, this means that the petitioner for a special administration order must be able to convince the court that, while the company in question is currently quite solvent, it is at risk of becoming insolvent, perhaps because the scale of liabilities that it faces looks excessive in relation to the foreseeable value of its assets. How far ahead? It is a very uncertain test. The reason for the third test was that it enabled a company’s directors, who after all should have the best view of the likely future circumstances, to apply for insolvency administration. That cannot possibly apply here because the only people who can apply for administration under this Bill are the Minister or Ofgem. The directors cannot do so.
There is another reason why the test should not apply here. Those who followed closely the tangled affairs of Railtrack in 2001 can recognise that it is open to political abuse. I do not propose to go into the long and tangled story, which was reported the other day in the Times, but it was the very looseness of test, which was in reality just a call by an accountant, that enabled the Government of the day to put Railtrack into special administration, even though the company was at the time solvent. It was only on the basis of cash flow projections over a lengthy future period that the Government could proceed.
A test that requires that kind of assessment to be made is quite different from the other two tests. It is inherently inappropriate, particularly here where we are dealing with energy supply companies which are operating in volatile, competitive markets. It is made doubly inappropriate by the fact that the tests can be abused for political purposes.
My amendment would simply remove that test altogether as it would apply to energy suppliers. My noble friend may have better ways of doing this, but I do not think that that test is appropriate in such a case as we have here, where only Ofgem or the Secretary of State—not the directors of a company—are able to use it and where it would be inherently very difficult to apply. I beg to move.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, I served on the Committee that produced the 2004 Act. It went on at least twice as long as we are destined to do. The noble Lord indicated that he has found a slight impediment in that Act. All I can say is that I did not see it at the time and I do not understand it now, so good luck to the Minister.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Davies of Oldham and Lord Jenkin of Roding(13 years, 3 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, we move to Chapter 4 of Part 1 and the clauses which encourage the energy industries to do much more in the way of carbon reduction. I do not need to go into the details of the clauses, although someone may want to make a speech on whether the clause should stand part.
Clause 61 applies to the gas industry and concerns the powers of the regulator and the obligations on the companies. In a sense, it replaces what was happening under the CERT programme. Clause 62 does exactly the same thing for the electricity industry. I shall discuss Amendment 29B at the same time because it concerns the same issue as Amendment 29A.
This matter has attracted the attention of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. Whereas most of the regulations under these clauses are subject to the affirmative procedure, under subsection (6) in each case certain of the regulations will be subject only to the negative procedure. When the Delegated Powers Committee looked at that, it recited the department’s arguments as to why there should be this distinction, the department arguing—I am quoting from paragraph 12 of the report—that the matters are,
“‘less central, more technical’ and ‘essentially administrative’”.
The committee then said that it did not find this argument persuasive. It remains unconvinced, for instance, that the provision enabled by new paragraph (c), which specifies the method for determining the contribution that any action makes towards meeting a target, falls into that category any more than the other paragraphs do. Therefore, it makes a very clear recommendation that these orders, which are the subject of that paragraph, should have the affirmative procedure on their first exercise. My amendments would simply take out subsection (6) from both clauses, because I was not sure how one would be able to table an order or draft an amendment that dealt with the first exercise of the power and not any subsequent one. That defeated my powers of drafting.
I believe that the case that the committee makes is a strong one. As I have said before in these debates, it is usual for Governments to accept the recommendations of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, because it is the body which the House has set up to look at these matters. I hope that my noble friend will be able to look with favour if not on the amendments then on the purpose that lies behind them and, if necessary, bring forward a government amendment at a later stage. I beg to move.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, the Committee and indeed the Minister should be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin. There is no doubt that the Government need to look seriously at the point raised by the Delegated Powers Committee, to which we always accord the respect which it deserves.
I understand the difficulty that the noble Lord has had. I myself could not work out what the amendment should look like. However, if we win the moral argument and the Minister is persuaded to observe the convincing case made by the Delegated Powers Committee, it will be for the Government to produce the necessary expertise in bringing forward the appropriate amendment. I am sure that, if the Minister agrees with us, he will address that point.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Davies of Oldham and Lord Jenkin of Roding(13 years, 3 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, I get the impression that we are coming up against the problem of balance that I referred to in a speech made some hours ago. It is now getting to the point where, if these amendments are accepted, the Bill will expect local authorities to take fairly drastic enforcement action. The noble Lord, Lord Best, will know much more about this than I do, but I have always been given to understand that local authorities already have quite substantial powers under the housing health and safety rating system, which can be used to tackle houses where tenants suffer excess cold and, no doubt, other factors. But the real problem is that these powers are very rarely used. The noble Lord, Lord Best, made the point that local authorities have many other duties, that they do not have enough environmental health officers, and that with the stringencies under which they now have to operate, it is not expected that they will be in a position to recruit more. Faced with pressures on resources and competing priorities, I wonder where the sense is in landing them with still more duties. Indeed, one has to ask what the probability is of such new duties being enforced.
There is no point in substantially increasing penalties and in introducing other measures that enable local authorities to take over houses, improve them and then charge the landlord, if no one is going to enforce them. Increasing the fine from £5,000 to £10,000 will do absolutely nothing if the notices are not enforced. I will sound a note of caution on this. We should not expect local authorities, over the next few years, to take substantial action when they are well known for not using the powers that they already have under the system that I have just mentioned. Again, I am just sounding a note of caution and I hope that the Minister will look at some of these proposals with a fairly cold and analytical eye to assess whether they will improve the Bill and increase the chance of the objectives that we all support being achieved, or whether this will be the point at which landlords simply throw up their hands and say, “Blow the lot of you, we are not going to re-let”.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I have not the slightest doubt that the Government will apply a cold and analytical eye to these issues, because that is their role. I hear what the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, says, and we all know that certain powers are more honoured in the breach than in their exercise. But, of course, the powers underpin the position of the local authority. He is absolutely right to say that local authorities do not often exercise their powers: but if they did not exist at all, standards would conceivably be a good deal lower, because everyone would know that if minimal standards were not observed, the local authority would not be able to take action.
These amendments commend themselves because they introduce a floor to the position. They say, basically, that these are the powers that local authorities will enjoy. They may not have to exercise them often, but if they do not exist, the Minister will have to show how enforcement can effectively take place. It seems to me that these amendments are a constructive way of underpinning the Bill with an effective sanction. Given that, I think that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, is on somewhat dangerous ground if he says that the issue of enforcement depends on the level of resources at your disposal, and therefore underperformance may be looked at in those terms. If that were translated to the police under the present cuts, the Government would be in serious trouble. One has to look carefully at the issue of what level of resources is available, but what is important is that it is only through local authority enforcement that certain minimum standards with regard to this legislation can be achieved. We should seek to guarantee that such powers exist. The degree of enforcement will depend on resources, on will and on a general perception of the value of the legislation. We have said all along that the legislation depends not on compulsion but on the engagement of the community. That is the main driver. The issue covered by the amendments is the provision of an element of underpinning, which I subscribe to.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Davies of Oldham and Lord Jenkin of Roding(13 years, 3 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I apologise to the Committee for my late arrival. The Chair will have saved me by indicating that sittings in the Chamber take precedence and, unfortunately, Questions went on beyond the scheduled start of this Committee. I hope that government business managers will look at that difficulty, which has been the source of a little embarrassment to me today and, more than that, a disadvantage to the Committee.
The amendment is concerned with giving consumers choice. It would enable consumers to have the benefit of a more comprehensive range of options, so that those who are motivated or who can afford a range of energy efficiency options can think about installing measures that go above and beyond the Green Deal. Providing a range of such options helps consumers to think more intensively about which measures they would like to install, as some measures will be better suited than others, according to the circumstances of the building that is due to be treated.
We have heard in Committee arguments in favour of thinking beyond what may strictly be provided through the Green Deal. We all appreciate the importance and significance of the Green Deal. I am not in any way, shape of form doing anything other than commending the objectives of the Green Deal, but there are possibilities beyond it. We all have a major job in educating the public and our fellow citizens about how they can respond. We all know what a challenge that will be because, in all circumstances, despite the fact that the arrangements for payment are so skilfully done through energy bills, costs are involved and we all know people’s natural response to additional costs, particularly when, in the immediate future, household budgets are likely to be constrained.
We want to make sure that as much information as possible is available and that we emphasise the necessity of both hitting the targets and ensuring that individual citizens and consumers sign up to the proposals in the Bill. This amendment builds on the momentum in this House for a more comprehensive energy perspective. I hope, therefore, that the Committee and the Minister will look on it as a constructive proposal to assist in the general objectives of the Bill. I beg to move.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
I had hoped that the noble Lord would have given some indication of the range of improvements and benefits that might be available under the Green Deal. It seems to me that, if one were to list the entire range, including appliances and all the other things that now qualify under the Green Deal, that could in many cases be misleading to a householder, as it might be that only two or three of them could possibly be relevant to his or her house. I just wonder what the purpose is of listing the whole lot if inevitably the assessment will be that, within the price and given the nature of the building concerned, numbers 1, 2 and 3 are really the only ones that will be applicable. What is the purpose of listing, as the amendment suggests in the second subsection, all energy efficiency measures, if most of them might not apply to that house?
Lord Davies of Oldham
I note that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, also looked on this clause and also saw that there was an issue with regard to the appropriate penalty. I appreciate that he is looking at it slightly differently from us, as we distinguish between the individual and the body corporate. We are concerned that we need an order of magnitude with regard to the nature of the offence. Here we are, involved in an exercise when we all know that we want, as far as possible, to see provisions go through on the basis of consent and mutual amity. We also know that things can go wrong. When they do so, we need to have some feeling of the order of magnitude which is attended on the wrongdoing, consistent with the overall objectives of the scheme. I look forward to the contribution that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, will make to his amendment. I beg to move.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
I was inspired to table my amendment by the proposal of the Delegated Powers Committee. In paragraph 11 of its report, it drew attention to the absence of a limit in the Bill and of the penalty that could be imposed. It took the view that as the affirmative procedure would be required, it would not regard the derogation of the power as inappropriate. However, it suggested that there should be a maximum penalty.
Looking at this provision, and applying my little skill and dubious judgment, I suggested a figure of £500. My amendment was tabled before that of the Official Opposition, and I am intrigued to see that they tabled the same figure for corporate bodies but a much lower figure for individuals. I would like to know what the Minister has in mind as an appropriate level of penalty. Mine is an entirely probing amendment.
Lord Marland
I thank noble Lords for their suggested amendments to Clause 14 to limit the level of financial penalty on individuals and companies for failure to comply with the disclosure and acknowledgement provisions. This clause provides the powers of the Secretary of State to make regulations to ensure that sellers and licensors comply with their disclosure and acknowledgement obligations. The clause allows for the following specific provisions to be made: sanctions for non-compliance, including civil penalties; requiring the Green Deal provider to cancel the liability of a bill payer to pay Green Deal plan instalments; requiring the Green Deal provider to refund any payments already made; and requiring those at fault to pay compensation to the Green Deal providers.
I understand noble Lords’ desire to protect individuals and businesses from excessive penalties. However, the disclosure and acknowledgment requirements are vital to the effective operation of the Green Deal and indeed to protect the customer, so we need robust and transparent sanctions to ensure that they are all complied with. We will work with relevant industry stakeholders to develop options as to how these provisions will apply in practice to minimise instances of non-compliance. I wish to emphasise that we will consult before setting out these arrangements in regulations.
Our aim will be to use existing and well established systems of sanctions and redress where possible. Further consideration is necessary to determine what level of civil penalty would provide sufficient deterrence to ensure compliance, but I trust noble Lords understand that it would be premature to make a decision on an upper limit at this stage. In conclusion, I assure noble Lords that we will seek to ensure that penalties are proportionate. I hope that this assurance will enable the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Davies of Oldham and Lord Jenkin of Roding(13 years, 4 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, going back a very great many years, I remember when I was a law student at Cambridge. One read the reports of the Court of Appeal. Much the easiest judgments to read were those that said, “I agree with my learned friend”, and had nothing to add. My noble friend’s amendment is better than mine and I simply endorse and support it.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, the Minister is faced with a significant challenge to his position. If the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, presents her detailed analysis of the Merits Committee and the strength of its arguments from the coalition side, it will not be at all a surprise for the opposition side. Quick learners as we are, we are quite happy on this occasion to be secondary to the issue and supportive of the amendment. The noble Baroness has indicated that the judgments of the Merits Committee in this House are always ones that we take very seriously indeed. We are grateful for the immense amount of work that goes on, the plethora of such legislation and the clarity that is always present in its reports. As the noble Baroness has said, it has given very clear guidance on this occasion on what should obtain with regard to this legislation. Therefore, the Opposition are delighted to offer their puny strength to the forces that are arranged alongside the noble Lord in the coalition, preaching the lessons of good will and good judgment.