Sunday Trading (London Olympic Games and Paralympic Games) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Davies of Oldham and Lord Davies of Coity

Thursday 26th April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, opposition Amendment 1E is an alternative to the one described by the Minister in his opening speech. It is there because we have not been able to reach agreement on how to safeguard shop workers’ rights during this period. He is absolutely right and I very much applaud the way in which he has approached this Bill. He has sought to consult as effectively as he could, as have we on our side. We have met him and have talked with as many interested parties as we have been able.

Let me make absolutely clear, as I did at Second Reading to which the Minister paid due regard, that we are in favour of this Bill. We want it to become law because we think it enhances the potential experience of the Olympic Games, albeit to a limited extent in so far as it creates consumer opportunities and shows Britain open for business. Nevertheless, it is an advantage and our existing shopping legislation would have looked odd in that the Games are on for a limited period. In particular, as I pointed out at Second Reading, the shops would close before the closing ceremony of the Games had even begun, which would have been a nonsense. We are in favour of change and we are broadly in favour of the Bill.

Our difficulty is how to safeguard the rights of shop workers. I am not prepared to accept the argument—as I am sure other noble Lords are not—to say at this stage, “Well, of course, shopkeepers are somewhat favoured in comparison to others who work on Sundays because of the existing provisions of Sunday trading law”. Shopkeepers are in that position but only because we have been concerned to circumscribe the hours of shopping on Sundays with the broad agreement of our community. Every test of public opinion at the present time reflects the fact that broadly what obtains in the generality is acceptable.

Shopkeepers have proper rights in relation to this, which were provided for in previous legislation. Now, a significant change is to be effected for this limited period. Consequently, we have sought to address ourselves to ensure that workers’ interests are protected. Although I have one other dimension in a later amendment, I emphasise that in all other aspects we are in favour of the Bill and wish it a safe passage. But we want to put before the House the critical issue of how shop workers’ interests are safeguarded.

We think that either the government amendment or ours is necessary because we need to be specific on how workers are to be treated over this period, but we have severe reservations about the government amendment. We discussed as fully as we could with the Government how to reach agreement. I regret, as does the Minister, that we have not been able to reach that agreement, which would have facilitated the passage of this legislation and kept the terms on which we have considered this Bill on the equable lines that they were at Second Reading. When discordant voices were expressed, they were about the whole principle of Sunday opening and not really related to the Bill.

We have tabled Amendment 1E because we think it makes absolutely clear the legislative position as it will affect shop workers over this period. I accept what the Minister said about this being merely a backstop. Many large organisations may have arrangements with their workers, which in some cases are likely to be more favourable to their workers than those provided in the Bill. But the law is an important backstop, which properly constrains the way in which these arrangements can be made, and it is necessary.

The Minister said that he has had wide consultations and knows that a large number of organisations will act entirely properly, and I accept that. But there are some organisations about which we will have more doubts. Certainly, independent shops may avail themselves of these opportunities but I doubt that the Minister is fully apprised of their arrangements and we are certainly not. One might say, “Well, you should be better advised on this”, but this Bill has come through under the emergency provisions. It is a rushed Bill due to the Government’s failure to recognise the necessity that such a provision was possible. That is why many of the difficulties we have in how to interpret the needs outside are less intensive than we would have hoped them to be.

However, we are sure that we need the law to be clear. An amendment is important and our Amendment 1E has considerable advantages over the government amendment. It calls for employers to give employees two months’ notice if they wish them to work on one of the Olympic Sundays. After all, this is a unique change and workers need to be informed about it. A request to work is a straightforward way to facilitate this.

Let us not underestimate the problems facing shop workers. This is a period of very significant unemployment in this country. We all know that work in shops is on a mixture of contracts. For a time we even had arrangements whereby people worked in shops on a voluntary basis while they got work experience. That has changed now but it reflects the complexity and the variety of provision in large commercial organisations. That is why we need clarity. We need it also because workers are likely to feel somewhat vulnerable at this present time. It is not easy to say no to an employer when there are 10 people at the gate for every job inside. This context has to be appreciated in recognising why those who represent shop workers are very concerned about the Bill.

Our Amendment 1E gives real clarity on the issue. It requires workers to submit an opt-out notice one month before the relevant Sunday. This builds in a period of time to make a decision between a request to work and having to submit the request to opt out. Our amendment is clearer than the Government’s and it is intelligible. It backs up the workers’ position in a clear and explicit way. Workers’ and employers’ rights and responsibilities are clearly stated in our amendment because it goes back to the first principles. It is not entirely incompatible with the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, because, as he has indicated, we have sought to achieve a consensual view with regard to this measure, and in broad terms we have obtained that. We are not changing the original Sunday Trading Act; we are merely putting forward an amendment which is preferable to the Government’s in its clarity and intelligibility. That is why, in due course, I hope to press Amendment 1E.

[Lord Davies of Coity]

My Lords, I regret that I was not able to be in the House on Tuesday and therefore could not participate in the Second Reading debate. However, I take the point of view of the noble Lord, Lord Judd, with regard to the protection of shop workers. In the Second Reading debate the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, said that he had been involved prior to 1986. So was I as the general secretary of the Union of Shop, Distributive, and Allied Workers. We fought strenuously up and down the country and we took a view. The only reason that we won the vote in the Commons under Margaret Thatcher, who I believe put a three-line Whip on the vote, was because 70-odd Conservative Members rebelled and supported the Opposition. At about 1 am on 16 April 1986 Neil Kinnock, the then leader of the Opposition, phoned me at home to tell me how successful they had been. It is the only time in Margaret Thatcher’s term of office that she was defeated, and that is important.

Coinage (Measurement) Bill

Debate between Lord Davies of Oldham and Lord Davies of Coity

Friday 15th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

I do not know about that. I have never had any hesitation about the Welsh leek, nor the Welsh daffodil, which is somewhat prettier and has a less pungent and unattractive smell. I hear what the noble Baroness says; I merely indicate that I have not seen an ordinary coin in circulation which reflects the Welsh dragon, although the Welsh dragon is an important symbol of Wales. I am surprised that the Royal Mint has not represented that dimension.

[Lord Davies of Coity]

With the extinction of the Welsh dragon, is it not more appropriate to say that the dragon that was slain by St George is also extinct?

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

I am not sure about that. St George is venerated in about eight other countries in addition to England. I do not think that there has ever been any suggestion that the evil monster that he struck down was a Welsh dragon—far from it, I have never seen a depiction of the dragon that St George destroyed which remotely resembles the red dragon of Wales. I am sure that my noble friend will agree with that.

It is important to empower the Mint not just in terms of commemorating the Olympic Games and the Paralympic Games. I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for introducing that important dimension. We hope that the World Athletics Championships will also be a success and that we can resolve that small matter which seems to be continually contested by a club for which I have a great affection, Tottenham Hotspur, about what is going to happen to the Olympic stadium. We have to get the Olympic stadium’s future absolutely clear, otherwise our ability to bid for significant events such as the World Athletics Championships will be damaged. The World Athletics Championships are not quite of the same significance as the Olympic Games but they are important sporting events in which the country takes great pride. We want the Mint to look at the serious issue of commemorating those events as well and this Bill will empower it to do that.

We should certainly be concerned about legacy because we would never have succeeded with the Olympics bid if we had not emphasised the Games’ very significant legacy for this country, particularly for deprived sections of the country such as east London. Commemoration is also important. This Bill gives us the opportunity to commemorate the Games in a very distinctive way. That is why I am delighted to applaud the Bill. The Opposition give it their full support.