Energy Bill [HL]

Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts

Wednesday 26th January 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I do not underestimate the challenge presented by this legislation in terms of making it effective. We recognise that good people and true subscribe to the broad objectives, but that is somewhat different from action, which they may not always define as being entirely within their interests. As my noble friend Lord O’Neill has identified, there may be some necessity for a degree of regulation. We hope that the thoughts of the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, are translated into action so that regulation can be kept to a minimum; we hope that we get a fair wind behind these concepts and that they work well. However, the Secretary of State should certainly have the power to make a regulation and not have to wait unduly for a review report that would cover many dimensions, not just the ones we are particularly concerned about here. Therefore, we are very much in favour of the first amendment but do not see the merits of the second.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland)]

My Lords, welcome back; it is very nice to see such a full contribution from noble Lords. I thank all noble Lords for their contributions as we move into day four. They have been incredibly valuable. I assure everybody that we are drawing up a list of comments and suggestions, which we take very seriously. We will look at them and if any noble Lords seek clarification, there will be some opportunity for that between Committee and Report. We will make sure that there is an opportunity for discussion. It would be quite nice if we could get through the Green Deal today; this will be our fourth day on it. It looks as though we are moving on quite nicely. It would also be very nice to get through the AV Bill today.

[Lord Teverson]

Can we take a vote on that, Lord Chairman?

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

I have noticed that the AV part of the Bill has long since been discussed. It is the other parts that are more difficult.

[Lord Marland]

I am obviously delaying our finishing the Green Deal Bill by adding some levity to the occasion. I will get on with it.

There are just a couple of points that need clarification after Monday’s debate. I will run through them so that they are on the record. As I said earlier, if people want clarification, let us have it now because I do not want to reopen a debate that we have already had. The definition of “private rented sector” in the Bill covers accommodation provided under an assured agricultural tenancy occupation, which was one of the points raised, or a protected occupancy for the purposes of the Rent (Agriculture) Act 1976. If they are let under an assured or regulated tenancy, this will not cover all cases. I have already agreed to consider whether the definition of “private rented sector” should be extended in the light of these amendments. That is for the subject of agriculture, which was discussed some amendments ago.

On payment holidays—another subject that my noble friend Lady Northover had to tussle with womanfully—Clause 30 enables us to allow the bill payer, who might be the landlord or the tenant, to suspend payments. However, suspension is likely to be available only in very limited circumstances. An example might be tenancy void periods. However, we do not expect tenants to be able to suspend payments, other than in the usual cases. The bill payer may also be able to enter into an arrangement with their energy supplier to reschedule their Green Deal payments.

Finally, on the purpose of the review of the private rented sector, our intention is that a key aim would be to safeguard against unnecessary and burdensome regulation. I hope this deals with the point of the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes. The Government are not set on regulation but on encouraging enterprise and activity. If we have to resort to regulation, it is, as the noble Lord, Lord Deben, said, probably a failure of government.

I hope that that clarifies the matter. We have debated this subject and I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Maddock for saying that we have discussed it already. We have given it a very good airing and I am sure we will have an opportunity to air it yet again. We are always open to discussion.

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[The Lord Bishop of Liverpool]

My Lords, I also support this amendment. However, I congratulate the Government on the lead they have taken in this Bill. I also congratulate the opposition Benches because, when they were in government, they gave an unequivocal lead on reducing carbon. It is great from these Benches to observe such common cause across the House. We need that.

I take on board a powerful point that the Minister has already made about having a light touch and not being overly prescriptive because it begs the question: when is legislation necessary? When in a process in a public debate do we need legislation? That question consumes this House on a number of subjects, but on this one it must be something to do with when the public attitudes do not yet match the public good. What we are agreed upon on all the Benches is that it is in the public good to reduce carbon as urgently as possible. Public attitudes, however, are not yet that adamant. Many of us in this House are working very hard in different ways to try to change hearts and minds on this subject. However, in the light of public opinion not changing as fast as the climate itself is changing, we need legislation, which is why I support this amendment.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, this has been a fascinating debate, not just about contemporary and immediate housing policy, and the necessities that face us with regard to the threat of climate change and improving the carbon content of our housing stock, but about housing policy in history. I very much enjoyed the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Deben, and he made an important contribution to our deliberations this afternoon. We are as one with him on the importance of the date and of bringing into line an industry which, in the past in the United Kingdom, has not always been the most innovative and has distinctly conservative—with a small “c”—elements to it. It is important to realise that this Government, like the previous Government and all of us as a whole community, are determined on the issue of carbon content because it is so important in the battle against climate change.

The noble Lord will forgive me if I do not go into housing history but he might recall that council housing was introduced by a Labour Government. He might also recall, having cast aspersions on the immediate post-war Government, that there was a fair bit of reconstruction to do, other than to housing, from 1945 to 1951. He might also think with regard to the present housing situation that people have either to buy or rent these houses, so cost is important.

In the basic need of housing, we are rendering many of our fellow citizens vulnerable to a market that is under terrible stress at present. The imminent possible significant interest rate rises cause enormous difficulties for people who have to meet housing costs, which in Britain are so reflective of movements in interest rates. In these circumstances, he might think that those parts of Conservative Party history that have put us in this position may not make us well placed to encourage our community to respond to the necessity of this dimension of housing construction and housing need. For the immediate and foreseeable future—in terms of housebuilding, 2016 is not very far away—people are bound to be constrained by cost and anxiety. The whole of the housing market is bound to be plagued by difficulties of people being unable to afford what they are committed to in terms of houses.

Having said that, I welcome the fact that all contributions to this debate responded to the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin; he has played a valuable part in identifying the proper anxieties that the Government should have, such as the fact that they have to weigh up the overall position of what can be afforded and achieved. Regulations require enforcement. Who is going to do that—local authorities, with their huge, abundant resources to train and develop the capacity to carry out this degree of scrutiny and control? In the immediate future, we are not looking at too rosy a picture on that front either. The noble Lord has identified our anxieties and the Committee—I hope that the Minister will take this message and respond to it—is very strong in its commitment to this amendment, which offers a great deal to the Bill. We are pleased to support it.

[Lord Marland]

My Lords, that was a magnificent debate. I am very interested to have had a history lesson. It is a slight shame that the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, provoked political crossfire, because both sides are completely aligned on this. I am delighted to hear about events in 1951 but I am surprised that the noble Lord is of an age where he can remember them—he looks so young. I take his lesson on board. We are all lucky to be able to look in the rearview mirror and complain and criticise, but that is not what we are here to do today; we are moving forward.

I declare my own interest, having been involved in a building project that is going before the planners today—obviously I am not involved any more—for a small carbon-neutral eco-village. I have been working with the Prince of Wales and the Prince of Wales Trust on further housing development in this area, so I am in the vanguard of everyone in this Room and completely in support of them, with perhaps the very mild exception of my noble friend Lord Jenkin, who I know supports the spirit of this measure but is more worried about the timetable. I do not need to take messages back to the Government; I am completely in the vanguard and supportive of the attitude of the previous Government and the current Government to this subject.

In the end, though, we must remind ourselves why we are here: to talk about the Green Deal, not about new housing, which is what the amendment deals with. I am delighted to take this matter back to my honourable friend the Housing Minister, who is fully committed to enabling all new homes to be zero carbon from 2016, and non-domestic buildings from 2019. In July last year, my honourable friend made clear the Government’s ambitions for a low-carbon eco-friendly economy, with substantial and cost-effective reductions in carbon emissions forming an essential part of our effort. However, we are debating how we can improve the existing housing stock, not the new housing stock. On that basis, I invite my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.

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[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

My Lords, we move to Chapter 4 of Part 1 and the clauses which encourage the energy industries to do much more in the way of carbon reduction. I do not need to go into the details of the clauses, although someone may want to make a speech on whether the clause should stand part.

Clause 61 applies to the gas industry and concerns the powers of the regulator and the obligations on the companies. In a sense, it replaces what was happening under the CERT programme. Clause 62 does exactly the same thing for the electricity industry. I shall discuss Amendment 29B at the same time because it concerns the same issue as Amendment 29A.

This matter has attracted the attention of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. Whereas most of the regulations under these clauses are subject to the affirmative procedure, under subsection (6) in each case certain of the regulations will be subject only to the negative procedure. When the Delegated Powers Committee looked at that, it recited the department’s arguments as to why there should be this distinction, the department arguing—I am quoting from paragraph 12 of the report—that the matters are,

“‘less central, more technical’ and ‘essentially administrative’”.

The committee then said that it did not find this argument persuasive. It remains unconvinced, for instance, that the provision enabled by new paragraph (c), which specifies the method for determining the contribution that any action makes towards meeting a target, falls into that category any more than the other paragraphs do. Therefore, it makes a very clear recommendation that these orders, which are the subject of that paragraph, should have the affirmative procedure on their first exercise. My amendments would simply take out subsection (6) from both clauses, because I was not sure how one would be able to table an order or draft an amendment that dealt with the first exercise of the power and not any subsequent one. That defeated my powers of drafting.

I believe that the case that the committee makes is a strong one. As I have said before in these debates, it is usual for Governments to accept the recommendations of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, because it is the body which the House has set up to look at these matters. I hope that my noble friend will be able to look with favour if not on the amendments then on the purpose that lies behind them and, if necessary, bring forward a government amendment at a later stage. I beg to move.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Committee and indeed the Minister should be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin. There is no doubt that the Government need to look seriously at the point raised by the Delegated Powers Committee, to which we always accord the respect which it deserves.

I understand the difficulty that the noble Lord has had. I myself could not work out what the amendment should look like. However, if we win the moral argument and the Minister is persuaded to observe the convincing case made by the Delegated Powers Committee, it will be for the Government to produce the necessary expertise in bringing forward the appropriate amendment. I am sure that, if the Minister agrees with us, he will address that point.

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The amendment is to encourage the Government to ensure that they get best advice about how these sorts of technologies can be used to reduce our carbon emissions and help people to keep their electricity bills down. I beg to move.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I have a few things to say. The Minister has made comments about things that go on in the Chamber of which he disapproves. Committees finish at 7.45 pm and often at 7.30 pm. I want to know whether the government Front Bench is going to follow the rules or whether it is departing from them.

[Baroness Northover]

We fully support the underlying—

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

No, my Lords, I have asked whether the noble Baroness intends to move the adjournment of this Committee. It is 7.45 pm. I have quite a lot to say on this Committee. In fact, I could probably go on for three and a half hours and I assure the Committee that I certainly will unless the Government recognise that rules are rules. To complain about what is going on in the Chamber, which is well within the rules, and to break the rules in Committee is quite unacceptable.

[Lord Teverson]

I am not going to talk about the other Chamber, but with this Committee on the Energy Bill, if there is some time left, we take the amendment and finish after that amendment. I am amazed at that intervention. It is quite unnecessary. I find it absolutely astounding. I presume that we will do as we have always done, which is to finish debating the amendment then adjourn. I shall join with the noble Lord in doing that, if that is the case.

[Lord Marland]

We started at 3.45 pm and we have been here for four hours. That is how long I was instructed that we were here for. We are running over by a minute. I do not think that that is unreasonable; no one is trying to frustrate the Committee. I did not intend to stop the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, making her excellent speech. I naturally thought that we would finish the amendment.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

Well, my Lords, the Minister may assume that we are going to finish the amendment, but we are all entitled to contribute. I would first like to emphasise that we have a great deal of sympathy indeed with the amendment, which has many parts to it that we can see are constructive and advantageous. We note the reference in the Committee to the Energy Saving Trust, a body that is being greatly reduced in its capacity to play any role because of the resources of which it is being starved.

Secondly, my understanding is that the Fuel Poverty Advisory Group is named in the Public Bodies Bill. If the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, were agreed to, presumably that would have implications for the support that she would in due course give to opposition amendments in the Chamber on the Public Bodies Bill that try to protect the very body to which she refers in her amendment. It scarcely makes a great deal of sense to table an amendment about a body that her Government are bent on abolishing under proposals in the Public Bodies Bill. We certainly would wish to give broad support to the amendment, but there are difficulties with it.

I say again that Committees work to strict rules. We have always obeyed them. I have never been on a Committee that has sat past 7.45 pm. This is the first time. If other noble Lords have experienced that, I am seriously in error. I thought I understood the rules regarding the timetable of the Committee stage and I still find it extraordinary that the government Front Bench did not move the adjournment when it should have done.