Al-Qaida (Asset-Freezing) Regulations 2011

Lord Davidson of Glen Clova Excerpts

Wednesday 9th November 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Davidson of Glen Clova]

My Lords, first, I thank the Minister for introducing these regulations. Perhaps I may say immediately that this side of course supports the principle underlying these regulations, particularly as they substantially update, replicate and, to a degree, improve the regulations that were introduced by the previous Government on the same topic. Their purpose to keep in place protections for the UK against financing terrorist activity is wholly supportive. We also recognise the necessity of these regulations to maintain the UK’s criminal penalties for breaches of the underlying European Council regulation.

In discussions regarding the predecessor 2010 regulations, a tangential concern was expressed about the UN processes in designating persons on the target list. While all the time recognising that the Council regulation on which these regulations are based does not merely require a replication of the UN target list, it nevertheless takes considerable account of it. I fully appreciate what the Minister has indicated by way of improved protections at the EU side but it would be interesting to hear from the Minister, following the discussions at UN level, what particular developments have taken place in enabling challenges to be made by an individual to their being placed on the UN target list.

I endorse the observations made by my noble friend Lord Myners in relation to the areas in which he seeks clarification. In conclusion, the Opposition support the balance that these regulations strike between security and liberty.

[Lord Sassoon]

I am afraid that I did not quite catch the noble and learned Lord’s question and I want to try to give him the service of an answer. His noble friend asked me lots of questions but since the noble and learned Lord asked only one, I want to make sure that I got it right. Perhaps he would not mind clarifying the question.

[Lord Davidson of Glen Clova]

It will be my pleasure. I was seeking clarification or explication of the processes which the UN employs for putting individuals on the target list and the way in which discussions by the UK Government at the UN level have improved the potential for challenge by individuals finding themselves on the UN target list. One fully appreciates that the UN target list is not simply replicated by the EU target list. It applies its own judgment in relation to these. But, given that the EU takes considerable account of what the UN does by way of placing individuals on the target list, it would be helpful to understand how a challenge might be made by an individual at the UN level. I appreciate that this is entirely tangential but it would be interesting to know as this matter has caused concern in the past.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords very much for this focused short debate and for a number of questions which are absolutely to the point. Even though the noble and learned Lord says that his question is tangential, I do not think that it is at all. It goes to the heart of the UK’s concerns to make sure that when the UN did its review of the regime leading up to June 2011 we made sure that there were additional proper protections. I might come back to that in a minute.

I am grateful that all noble Lords recognise the importance of these regulations but it is equally clear that we should get the details right.

In answer to my noble friend Lady Kramer’s questions, I can certainly reassure her that absolutely nothing will slip through the gaps; there is nothing separating the old and the new regimes. We are putting in place something that ensures that there is a seamless continuation from the old combined resolution regime into the two separate regimes.

On whether there will be any additional burdens on ordinary people, I shall expand that to ordinary people and small businesses because it is important that small businesses do not have any additional burdens placed on them. Consistent with my previous answer, there should be no substantially changed burdens from the previous regimes. In fact, there has been some rationalisation of the drafting of the regulations in the process of coming forward with this new regulation. We continue to have a dialogue with representatives of small firms. I can reassure my noble friend on that. She also asked about the burden on people. It mainly will ensure that private individuals, who are in any way conceivably connected to this regime, have legitimate payments flowing to them. I believe that the regime will continue to ensure that that is the case.

I wondered why the noble Lord, Lord Myners, was writing away so furiously and I now understand that he was setting an exam paper for me.