Armed Forces Bill

Debate between Lord Dannatt and Baroness Goldie

Committee stage
Tuesday 2nd November 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, I support both amendments. I added my name to Amendment 49; it was merely an omission not to have added my name to Amendment 63 since both amendments, as we have heard, are important. At Second Reading, I spoke about the situation with the Gurkhas; my only experience of them is visiting once while on the Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme, so I have no interest to declare in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Lancaster, has.

However, like other noble Lords, I am deeply aware of the importance of the Gurkhas and the service they give. We need to think what signals we send if we say, “You can work with us; you can put your life on the line and die for us. But if you wish to have indefinite leave to remain, we will charge you huge sums of money, as if you were simply coming as a third-country national with no relationship to our country.” People who have been serving with us, such as the Gurkhas and Commonwealth citizens working within our Armed Forces, should be given the opportunity to have indefinite leave to remain on an at-cost basis, as we ourselves would when we sign up for a passport. We do not get our passports free but we pay the cost.

Earlier on, the Minister suggested that the MoD has certain duties, but this is not currently a duty. The MoD and the Home Office could do something relatively straightforward about this and make a huge difference in the message that we send to service personnel from Commonwealth countries.

Finally, I add a word in support of the comments of the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, about Hong Kong. This is partly because my noble friend Lord Alton of Liverpool was hoping to speak on this amendment in support of the service personnel from Hong Kong; he sat through the first group and most of our next debate but has had to leave for another meeting. It is very important that we think again about the commitments to Hong Kong. As the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, said, it is slightly an issue of history and timing that the withdrawal from Afghanistan has happened in the middle of the passage of the Bill, and it sends certain messages. However, that withdrawal and the situation in Hong Kong again mean that we have certain duties. It would behove the MoD and the Home Office to look generously also on service personnel from Hong Kong.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, I thank your Lordships for their contributions on an issue that might look fairly contained but is, none the less, important. I will look first at Amendment 49, on fees for indefinite leave to remain, which was moved by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and supported by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham. I make clear immediately that the Government highly value the service of all members of the Armed Forces, including Commonwealth nationals, and Gurkhas from Nepal, who have a long and distinguished history of service to the UK, both here and overseas.

Your Lordships will be aware that the Home Office, not the MoD, has a specific set of Immigration Rules for Armed Forces personnel and their dependants, the Appendix Armed Forces. Under these rules, non-UK service personnel enlisted in the regular Armed Forces, including Commonwealth citizens, and Gurkhas from Nepal, are granted an exemption from immigration status for the duration of their service to allow them to come and go without restriction. They are therefore free from any requirements to make visa applications or pay any fees while they serve, unlike almost every other category of migrant coming to work in the UK.

Non-UK service personnel who have served at least four years or been medically discharged as a result of their service can choose to settle in the UK after their service and pay the relevant fee. As my noble friend Lord Lancaster indicated, the time before discharge when such settlement applications can be submitted has been extended this year from 10 to 18 weeks. Those applying for themselves do not have to meet an income requirement, be sponsored by an employer or meet any requirements regarding their skills or knowledge of the English language or of life in the UK. That again puts them in a favourable position compared with other migrants wishing to settle here.

The noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, asked specifically about the situation of Afghan interpreters and sought to draw an analogy between them and the group that we are discussing under these amendments. ARAP and the ex-gratia scheme before it were set up in recognition of something very simple: the serious and immediate danger locally engaged staff would face, were they to remain in Afghanistan. The unique and perilous situation that this group of Afghans faced, because of their support for Her Majesty’s Government, required a bespoke solution to meet that immediate and extreme need.

I can tell the noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, that specific Immigration Rules are already in place for our non-UK service personnel and veterans, as I have outlined, to ensure that those who choose to can remain in the UK after service. Some choose to take up that offer, while others return to their original nation, but that personal choice is not overshadowed by risk of persecution or even death, such as would be faced by Afghan citizens if they returned to Afghanistan.

[Lord Dannatt (CB)]

I hope the noble Baroness will forgive me for interrupting. I much appreciate her point, but my point was not in this instance to do with interpreters. I am very grateful for the work of the Ministry of Defence in enabling many of our interpreters to come to this country, and more is still to be done. I was referring to members of the Afghan National Army who have found their way back to this country through the evacuation flights. As soldiers of another nation, they are going to be accorded better rights of residence in this country than foreign and Commonwealth soldiers who have served as members of the British Armed Forces.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I referred to locally employed citizens in Afghanistan. It may be that some members of the Afghan army felt at risk and that their lives were imperilled, and therefore sought to return to this country. We would bring them under the overall umbrella of help we felt it necessary to provide people who came here because they feared for their lives—and they were people with whom we had a relationship. So I suggest that there is not a complete analogy in the noble Lord’s description.

We recognise that settlement fees place a financial burden on non-UK serving personnel wishing to remain in the UK after their discharge, and the strength of feeling from parliamentarians, service charities and the public about this issue. As has already been indicated, the Ministry of Defence, together with the Home Office, ran a public consultation between 26 May and 7 July 2021 regarding a policy proposal to waive settlement fees for non-UK service personnel. The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked when we will get an outcome from that. I can say to him that 6,398 responses were received. These are having to be sifted through. The results are currently being considered and the Government will publish their response in due course. The Government are aware that there is a certain anticipation in the outside world to know their response.

Integrated Review: Defence Command Paper

Debate between Lord Dannatt and Baroness Goldie

Tuesday 23rd March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

As the noble Lord is aware, we have a partnership at the moment with our American friends, who provide support to the carrier. That is a matter of merit; it is about alliance, friendship and interoperability, and we should understand that. The Government’s commitment is to increase the fleet size of Lightning beyond the 48 aircraft of which we are aware. I hope that reassures the noble Lord.

[Lord Dannatt (CB) [V]]

My Lords, now that the Regular Army is once again to be reduced in size in order to provide additional funds for the defence equipment programme, can the Minister give an idea of the thinking within the Ministry of Defence about increasing the size of the Army should the Government of the day wish to take part in a large operation, such as the two Gulf wars, or an enduring operation, such as those in Iraq and Afghanistan? My concern is that the future may not look how we might wish it to look; however, history has a habit of repeating itself.

Armed Forces: Covid-19 Deployment

Debate between Lord Dannatt and Baroness Goldie

Thursday 12th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

With their unique skills, the reservists have played a pivotal role in the response to Covid-19. They have been part of that response at every level. At one point, we had 2,300 Army reservists mobilised as part of Operation Rescript and the MoD’s contribution to the Covid-19 response. Currently, 340 reservists are mobilised to that operation and we have 100 additional reservists to support wider defence recovery. I pay tribute to their contribution.

[Lord Dannatt (CB) [V]]

I thank the Minister and other noble Lords for their appreciative comments about the use of the Armed Forces during the pandemic. Historically, deployment of the Armed Forces in support of civil authorities has been found from spare capacity within the Armed Forces. Does the Minister acknowledge that the size of the Armed Forces has been considerably reduced in recent years and, therefore, available spare capacity is also much reduced? Will the noble Baroness indicate whether, in the forthcoming integrated security and defence review, future support to civil authorities will become a formal military task and be properly resourced as such?

British Overseas Troops: Civil Liability Claims

Debate between Lord Dannatt and Baroness Goldie

Monday 20th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie [V]]

I reassure the noble Baroness that this Bill will not abolish the right of people to make claims. It puts into context that a time limit will now surround when those claims can be brought. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, that is fair and proportionate. It is fair to our service men and women, to victims and to potential claimants.

[Lord Dannatt (CB) [V]]

My Lords, when does the Minister believe that Her Majesty’s Government will extend legislation in the overseas operations Bill to cover operations in Northern Ireland? I seem to recall that my first deployment in Northern Ireland in 1971 was by sea from Liverpool, so I regard this as a legitimate question. On a pertinent point, can the Minister confirm that should Major Bob Campbell, having been questioned and investigated eight times about the drowning of Said Shabram in Iraq in 2003, be exonerated by the Iraq Fatality Investigations inquiry, he will be within his rights to sue the Ministry of Defence should he be so inclined? Seventeen years of investigation have broken this decorated soldier, ruined his career and wrecked his mental health.

[Baroness Goldie [V]]

I will answer the latter part of the noble Lord’s question first. I cannot comment on a specific case but, clearly, every individual is entitled to seek legal advice and consider what is appropriate action for them. On his first point, I assure him that, yes, a Northern Ireland Bill is coming forth to deal with similar issues; the Northern Ireland Office is currently in the process of preparing it. We expect more information in early course.

National Shipbuilding Strategy

Debate between Lord Dannatt and Baroness Goldie

Wednesday 6th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie]

I thank the noble Lord for making a very important point. Obviously, I cannot make any specific commitments and undertakings, and I know that he would not expect me to do so. However, I go back to what has been described by Sir John Parker as a sort of regional renaissance of shipbuilding. That, I think, is a very healthy indicator of where the shipbuilding industry is in the United Kingdom. When shipyards tender for these contracts, I know that there will be an interest in where they source the materials and equipment. Wherever it is practical and sustainable and not subject to specialisation issues, I think there will be an expectation, and we would like to hope, that as many of them as possible will be sourced domestically within the United Kingdom.

[Lord Dannatt (CB)]

My Lords, it may surprise some noble Lords that I welcome today’s announcement —I would welcome any increase in Armed Forces capability—but, as the noble Lord, Lord Campbell, suggested, one is properly fearful of not just the cost but the opportunity cost of this enhanced maritime capability, and I hope that it is genuinely an enhanced maritime capability. Costs always rise. I recall that, at the Defence Board in 2007, the two aircraft carriers were voted in at £3.6 billion; they are now costing £6.2 billion, and I am sure that that will be replicated.

In the 2010 SDSR, the Government perfectly reasonably put a priority on equipment programmes. But when one prioritises equipment, one has to find savings in manpower and most of the manpower is in the Army, so the Army has been reduced by 20%. I am concerned that, in order to meet this increased maritime capability, it is not at the expense of our land forces, or indeed our air forces for that matter.

Surely, is there not a case to increase our defence budget above the 2% of GDP, to 2.25% or 2.5%? I have raised that point in your Lordships’ House before. But when we are leaving the European Union, it would be a tremendous signal within the wider context of NATO for the United Kingdom to increase its defence budget marginally to show that we are interested not just in national security but in European security and in worldwide security to boot. I ask the Minister to take that message back. As someone who was formerly head of the Army, I welcome the increase in maritime capability, but if it is at the expense of other aspects of our Armed Forces capability, this is a bad day for the UK and not a good one. The solution is an increase in our defence budget.

[Baroness Goldie]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, for his question. I reiterate that the defence budget is rising. I suppose that many organisations, not least government departments, would like to be able to say the same thing. That the defence budget is rising is a reflection of the importance that the Government place on our defence capability.

On the specific issue of raising the percentage of budget that we spend on defence above 2%, that is a NATO commitment. We are one of the relatively few countries that have managed to do that. It is important that we are open and transparent about what we are trying to do, which is what this whole strategy is about, and how we are trying to attend to the issues of procurement, governance and fairness to the taxpayer, while attending to the very necessary needs of the security and stability of our country. At the same time, we must combine all of that in a way that gives value for money and which provides us with what we need.

I am sure that, like many other departments, the MoD would like a purse without any strings attached, but I am afraid that that is not the world in which we live. The Government have indicated that they have a responsible attitude to funding our defence needs, and this is a very positive contribution to what the Government are endeavouring to do on the broader front of defence.