Draft House of Lords Reform Bill

Lord Cunningham of Felling Excerpts

Tuesday 7th June 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Cunningham of Felling]

After “(Cm 8077),” insert “and, mindful of the need to protect the primacy of the House of Commons, that it be an instruction to the committee to take into account the conclusions of the Joint Committee on Conventions which was noted with approval by both Houses”.

[Lord Cunningham of Felling]

My Lords, I begin by thanking the noble Lord the Leader of the House for his comments and for the even-handed way in which he introduced the resolution. However, I am bound to say that there are some people—I do not ascribe this view to the Leader of the House—who propose a wholly or partially elected second Chamber in our Parliament who assume that their policy can be enacted and that nothing else will change. They believe that the de facto abolition of this House and its replacement by an elected Senate can be seamlessly accomplished and Parliament and Government will continue as before, completely unaffected by the change.

I believe that they are wrong. I believe that there is plenty of evidence from previous Joint Committees to enable us to come to the conclusion that they are wrong. I welcome the decision to establish a Joint Committee of Lords and Commons to consider the draft Bill, as long as that committee is balanced, of varied views and not a repetition of the committee set up by Jack Straw during the previous Parliament—in other words, not made up of people who all begin and end by sharing the same view of the future.

The purpose of my amendment is to ensure that the evidence, conclusions and recommendations of the Joint Committee on Conventions are fully taken into account. I cite the summary of the report, on page 3:

“Our conclusions, however, apply only to present circumstances. If the Lords acquired an electoral mandate, then in our view their role as the revising chamber, and their relationship with the Commons, would inevitably be called into question, codified or not. Should any firm proposals come forward to change the composition of the House of Lords, the conventions between the Houses would have to be examined again”.

It is a central conclusion of the unanimously agreed report of the Joint Committee—and, as I have said in this Chamber before, unanimously approved by both Houses of Parliament—that that would have to be considered again. Therefore, it is important that we get that established with the new Joint Committee.

An elected second Chamber with a mandate would assert its right to a view. The evidence in the Joint Committee report says that, as do the conclusions. The other House and the Government of the country could not escape the consequences, which would most likely be profound and unpredictable, but would probably destabilise the conventions of Parliament. If change is required, and I believe it is, the better alternative is set out in the case made by the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, in his Bill, which I certainly support, and more recently the proposals—at least most of them, I had better say, in case of an early intervention—made by the committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad.

The Government should support those proposals, while still pursuing their right to establish a Joint Committee. I regret very much that in the previous Parliament the then Government consistently blocked the work of the noble Lord, Lord Steel, and his Bill. That was a mistake. We should take care that blind adherence to outdated thinking does not produce outcomes that make our Parliament less effective than it already is today.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, I support everything that the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, has said. I believe that he has performed a signal service for the House this afternoon by putting down the amendment and by moving it so eloquently. It is crucial that this committee, when established, reflects the varying positions and opinions held in this House and in another place and that it is not a duplicate of the Straw committee, as the noble Lord has said. It is also crucial that it has plenty of time. Bearing in mind the approaching long Recess, the date of 29 February next year does not give it a lot of time during parliamentary Session to go into this extremely serious matter.

We are concerned about the abolition of this House and its replacement by something entirely different. It is right that the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, should have moved his amendment because he touches on a crucial factor: conventions that apply between this House and another place apply between this House and another place. If this House becomes another place, they cannot apply. We talk of Parliament Acts or Salisbury conventions or the conventions into which the noble Lord’s committee looked in such great detail, but there will be two totally different Houses of Parliament if the Government’s intentions, as outlined in the White Paper, come to pass. Many of us will oppose those. Whether they are good or bad is for individual noble Lords to decide.

On one thing we can surely be united: if we are abolished and replaced by an elected Chamber, whatever conventions bind us or relate us to the other place will cease to exist because this place will have ceased to exist. We have to recognise that, as do the Government, and they cannot blithely say in their White Paper and draft Bill that all will be the same. All will not be the same because we will have changed something fundamental.

Although this is not the time and place to go into great detail, I recall a conversation which I had with the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, yesterday. He reminded me that, when the founding fathers established the constitution of the United States, they had it in mind to have a powerful House of Representatives and a consultative body in the Senate. Look what happened there. Our colleagues in another place in this Parliament should bear in mind that if we are replaced by an elected Chamber, the new elected Chamber cannot be bound, “cabined, cribbed, confined”, by the conventions that currently pertain. I warmly support what the noble Lord has said and urge noble Lords to bear that in mind. I urge the committee, when it is established, to look at these points with extreme care and diligence.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Cunningham of Felling]

I am grateful to the Leader of the House. I have only one or two brief points. This amendment is carefully couched in terms that could engender cross-party, if not universal, support in this Chamber. It is not about kicking anything into the long grass, and I regard that intervention as complete rubbish. It is about trying to ensure that, as we move forward on the reform of our Parliament, we end up with a better system of governance—not a worse one—for our country and the people we are here to represent. There is no mention of the date in my amendment, and I accept what the Leader of the House has just said. On one occasion when I had the honour to chair a Joint Committee, it became obvious very quickly that the time as set down in the original resolution was not sufficient. We wrote to both Houses and the date was extended. There is no reason why that should not happen again if it is necessary.

I am still not sure why the Leader of the House has not said that he will simply accept the amendment because it seems that if I were to insist on dividing the House, there is little doubt about the outcome. However, I am content to say that on this occasion I will not press for a Division, although of course there will be other occasions. I conclude by making this statement: I believe that the amendment has been carried nem con, and I therefore beg to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment withdrawn.

House of Lords Reform Bill

Lord Cunningham of Felling Excerpts

Tuesday 17th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords—

[Lord Cunningham of Felling]

My Lords—

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

We have got 40 minutes. Let us show ourselves on our best behaviour. I suggest that the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, asks first, and then perhaps we can hear from the Liberal Democrat Benches.

[Lord Cunningham of Felling]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. Can I remind the Leader of the House that the Conventions of the UK Parliament report was unanimously approved by the committee, unanimously approved by your Lordships’ House and then unanimously approved in the other place—a unique record for any such report? That report, inter alia, said that if this House, or part of it, were to be elected, and people had a mandate, it would be bound to call into question the relationship and the conventions operating between the two Houses. Indeed, the report went further and said in paragraph 61,

“should any firm proposals come forward to change the composition of the House of Lords, the conventions between the Houses would have to be examined again”.

That was a decision of both Houses of Parliament. Does the Leader of the House not recognise that all the evidence underwrites these conclusions of the committee, and not only in our country, if we look at the relationship between the House of Representatives and the Senate in the United States of America or between the Japan Diet’s House of Representatives and House of Councillors? They moved to change their powers in the relationships just as this House with an elected mandate would seek to do, with the most profound consequences for the governance and the constitution of our country.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Lord. His report was extremely useful, was well received in both Houses and is a testament to his skill as a chairman. I dare say that he will be called upon again to examine many of these issues. It will be up to the Joint Committee whether it wishes to examine that precise aspect of his report on conventions. During the transitional period between the wholly appointed House and an elected House, over 10 or 15 years, I fully expect the conventions and agreements between the Houses to change, to evolve and to adapt to different circumstances; it would be very strange if they did not do so. I also think that both Houses will be able to develop a mature relationship so as to retain the best of what we have now, but, as I said earlier, it would mean a more assertive House with the authority of the people and an elected mandate.