European Union (Referendum) Bill

Lord Crickhowell Excerpts

Friday 24th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley]

Yes, the words are the same as the amendment that is linked with this so that the two versions would be the same. I realise that at this stage of the Bill this is no doubt seen as a probing amendment, and it is a matter of how it should be taken on board. I do not think that this is a controversial issue—it certainly would not be in Wales—and I support the initiative with regard to the Gaelic language in Scotland.

[Lord Crickhowell (Con)]

My Lords, I have not spoken at all today. Having played a considerable part in strengthening and supporting the position of the Welsh language in Wales, of course I agree that both the English and Welsh versions should have an equal place on the referendum papers. However, that seems to be perfectly adequately covered in the Bill as it stands because the order has to come before both Houses of Parliament for approval, covering this very point. Although I share the view of what the endgame has to be, that seems to be adequately provided for in the Bill.

[Lord Wigley]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, for his comments. I acknowledge immediately that during his time in office progress was made with regard to the Welsh language, and incidentally the late Wyn Roberts also played a significant part in that. However, the point is that in most legislation of this sort these words would be in a schedule, but there is no schedule here. We have the English version in the Bill, which is why there is an amendment to have a Welsh version as well. That would at least get the balance right. It may well be that between now and Report an amendment needs to be drafted saying that both should be treated with equality in this Chamber as they would be in Wales.

European Union (Referendum) Bill

Lord Crickhowell Excerpts

Friday 10th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Crickhowell (Con)]

My Lords, the Constitution Committee, of which I am a member, published a brief but important report on the Bill. Paragraphs 9 to 14 cover the referendum question and the role of the Electoral Commission. Paragraphs 15 to 17 cover the regulation of the referendum. The very important paragraphs 6 to 8 on process make two crucial points must be taken into account: first, that the Bill has reached us having been approved by huge majorities in the Commons; and, secondly, that if any amendments are approved here, it will almost certainly kill the Bill—or, as we delicately put it, “make it unlikely” that there would be time for the Bill to be passed.

In what we have to say about the recommendations of the Electoral Commission, we included the words:

“Taking account of the circumstances described in paragraphs 6–8, the House will wish to consider”,

et cetera. Those circumstances included the rejection by 244 votes to three of an amendment which would have replaced the proposed question with the first alternative proposed by the Electoral Commission.

In paragraph 17, which considers whether the conduct of the referendum should be decided by a process set out in full in the Act of Parliament, we have again used the words:

“Taking account of the circumstances described in paragraphs 6–8, the House will wish to consider”.

Those circumstances include the very limited time available. We have proposed that undertakings should be sought as to how the Secretary of State would intend to fulfil the duty imposed by Clause 3(2), in light of the fact that it would be virtually impossible in a Private Member’s Bill to set up the process in full in the Act.

I turn from the agreed position of the committee to my own conclusions as to how we should proceed. The issue that confronts us concerns the relationship between the two Houses and the proper role of the unelected House. The Bill has come to us with the full authority of the elected House, and with a great deal of evidence that the electorate want a referendum. Having served in both Houses, I am certain that, although the work we do here is hugely valuable, the will of the elected House must prevail. For that reason, I believe that it would be a grave mistake if the Lords were to kill the Bill. We have heard a good deal recently about the cynicism of the public and their considerable contempt for politicians. Very few outside Parliament will understand our arcane procedures, and if the Bill dies in the hands of this non-elected Chamber, many will believe that it was just another political manoeuvre designed to frustrate their legitimate wishes.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, who has given immensely distinguished service to his country, but has never been elected, and who indicated that he intended to table many amendments and spend a great deal of time debating them, that if Members in his position take that line, it will simply add salt to the wounds already opened. Many of us fought vigorously and with success to defeat legislation that would have destroyed the House of Lords as we have known it and made it wholly elected. To defy the will of the Commons on this issue would be ample reason for those who believe in Lords reform to drag the question out of the long grass, where it lies at present.

There will be those who will debate the merits of staying in or leaving the EU and related questions. I will not join those debates. I do not think that this is the time or the place to do so. The issues before us are really very simple. Are we to approve or are we to destroy the Bill sent to us by the Commons? Are we to add to the despair that exists about the political system? Are we going to block the wishes of ordinary people who want the certainty that their views will be heard? I profoundly hope that the Bill will pass.

Pope Benedict XVI: State Visit Funding

Lord Crickhowell Excerpts

Thursday 10th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am not quite sure what the noble Lord is saying. He is right—this was partly a visit by a head of state to Her Majesty the Queen, and a pastoral visit. The money I am talking about related to the heads of state costs incurred by the Government—and rightly so. The Church also made its contribution to other pastoral costs, but I am talking about the Government’s costs.

[Lord Crickhowell]

My Lords, did I hear my noble friend correctly? I think he said that the original allocation decisions were made in March 2010. Am I therefore right in thinking that he is vigorously defending the original decisions of the previous Government?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Yes, I often find myself in that position.