Local Government (Religious etc. Observances) Bill
Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Avebury
Lord Avebury (LD)
My Lords, I take this opportunity to raise a couple of points which I took up with my noble friend Lord Cormack in Committee and to which I have not received the promised answers. Without going into all the questions that I put to him, the first was whether or not he had taken legal advice on the compatibility of the proposals in the Bill with the public sector equality duty. The answer to that is either yes or no. I also asked him, if he had taken legal advice on it, whether he would place a copy in the Library of the House.
The second question I put to him, which is equally important, was whether or not Section 111(1) of the Local Government Act already gave local authorities most of the powers that were purported to be given in new Section 138B, which is to be added to the statute book by the Bill. We always say that legislation should not duplicate Acts that are already on the statute book, and I asked my noble friend to say whether he checked this point. I would be most grateful if he could give me replies to both those questions.
Local Government (Religious etc. Observances) Bill
Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Avebury
Lord Avebury (LD)
My Lords, I beg to raise a matter of which I have given the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, private notice. In the debate on the first amendment to this local government Bill last Friday, the noble Lord said, in col. 855 of the Hansard report, that I had quoted a former Tory councillor without giving his name or that of his authority. Lest there should be any doubt about the authenticity of the quote, notwithstanding the noble Lord’s adding that he himself did not doubt my word, I draw your Lordships’ attention to the fact that I had named the council and that I did not give the name of the councillor for reasons of personal confidentiality.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, I entirely accept what my noble friend said. I did make it plain that his veracity was not in doubt. I missed the reference to the council, for which I apologise.
Local Government (Religious etc. Observances) Bill
Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Avebury
Lord Avebury
My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend for the unexpected compliments and for the courteous way in which he has conducted these proceedings. However, as for the accusation that we are, in some way, trying to prevent people attending or participating in great events of the nation such as the remembrance of the victims of the First World War or of those who died in Afghanistan, I have to say that it is not worthy of the noble Lord to suggest that we are in any way trying to obstruct or frustrate the attendance of people from councils at those events. There is nothing whatever in the amendments that could have led to that conclusion.
I asked my noble friend whether Section 111(1) of the Local Government Act already gave permission for the local authorities covered by the Bill to engage in those events. If that is so, then most of new Section 138B, which we are talking about currently, is not necessary. We always say that we discourage legislation that duplicates something that is already on the statute book. Constantly, when people try to make amendments to legislation, Governments tell them, “You should not do this, because Section so-and-so, which covers the eventuality, is already on the statute book”. I asked whether my noble friend could tell us whether Section 111(1) of the Local Government Act already covers the events referred to in new Section 138B.
Lord Cormack
As I tried to say a few minutes ago, this Bill seeks to put matters beyond doubt. Until the Bone case—with which my noble friend is very familiar—came before the High Court, people thought that what had gone on for generations was entirely permissible. The High Court judgment said that Mr Bone had not been discriminated against and had not been unfairly treated. However, it also said that the Local Government Act in question did not allow prayers. The first part of the Bill dealt with that issue. We are seeking to put these matters beyond doubt, so that in future no Mr Bone can seek to take an authority to court if it closes a road on Remembrance Sunday or on any other day of the year such as today, when these services are taking place, not only in London and Lincoln but in other parts of the country too. It is merely to ensure that this is beyond doubt. It is a belt-and-braces approach. I know that my noble friend—and I am pleased to call him that—has over the years very often been anxious to put beyond doubt certain things in which he has firmly believed. That is all we are seeking to do.
Lord Avebury
With respect to my noble friend, I did not think it was beyond doubt. I thought Section 111(1) did cover it; nor has the Bideford judgment anything to do with the matters we are currently discussing, because the conclusion of the judge when summing up was:
“'The saying of prayers as part of the formal meeting of a council is not lawful under section 111 of the Local Government Act 1972”.
But we have got beyond that now. We are not talking about prayers; we are talking about the attendance, support or facilitating of events of a religious nature by members of a local authority.
I do not know how many times I have to repeat this but no one who supports the Bill has the slightest objection to the national events that I was talking about earlier. We would not dream of trying to frustrate local authorities’ decisions to participate in those important national events. What we are talking about are the words “support or facilitate”, which do not occur in Section 111(1) of the Local Government Act. I am saying that it carries enormous dangers if you give people those powers. I refer to the case of the former mayor of Tower Hamlets and the machinations that he was engaged in in generating support from religious communities within Tower Hamlets. There is a serious point here that if we allow local authorities to support or facilitate events that are of a religious character, we are opening a Pandora’s box, which we may regret later on.
I sense that the House wants this discussion to come to an end. I conclude that because the Bill had the support of the other place and because it is not our position to frustrate the will of the other place, which we would do if we pressed this amendment to a Division, I beg leave to withdraw it.
Climate Change: UN Conference
Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Avebury(9 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Avebury (LD)
My Lords, has my noble friend looked at the study by Oxford University’s department of engineering which showed that the development of tidal power in the Pentland Firth could supply 42% of Scotland’s electricity? Will she therefore encourage the development of these resources and promote them in other parts of the United Kingdom?
Schools: Admission Policies
Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Avebury(11 years, 4 months ago)
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford)
It is the turn of this side, but we shall be very quick and then we shall hear from the other side.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Avebury(12 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Cormack
I am well aware of that but the point that I was seeking to make in a very brief speech was that those who are damaged by an agency of the state deserve the help of the state automatically if they are seeking redress.
Lord Avebury
I am not sure that that proposition is right. I do not think that my noble friend had borne in mind the possibility that the child would do better financially under the CFA. That is a very important consideration. In fact, in my mind it is the determining consideration in how I approach this amendment. If the argument of my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford is correct, it is conclusive that we should not support the amendment but that we should allow cases to go forward under the CFA, under which people will be better compensated than they would have been.