Licensing Act 2003

Debate between Lord Condon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Wednesday 9th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Noble Lords will know that there have been a number of ideas on this issue. Chief Constable Adrian Lee from Northamptonshire suggested the idea of drunk tanks, which I had to read about to understand. This has generated some public debate; it is the sort of thing which clearly the Government will look at, because anything that can relieve the burden on hospitals must be a good thing.

[Lord Condon (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my usual interest. Is the Minister aware of the excellent project in Ipswich, Suffolk, that has been going on over the past year? On a voluntary basis, retailers, major supermarkets and off-licences, working with police and others, have withdrawn the sale of the strongest canned and bottled beers and lagers. On that voluntary basis, it seems to have had a beneficial effect on the quality of life for people, particularly in the centre of Ipswich, and has reduced anti-social behaviour. Does the Minister agree that this should be encouraged in other city centres?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Yes, I would certainly vouch for that. There has been a lot of co-operation from the retail trade. I met representatives of the Association of Convenience Stores at the Conservative party conference, where they had a meeting. They are very supportive of retail initiatives of this sort. This morning I met Richard Antcliff, the chief anti-social behaviour officer in Nottinghamshire, and I went to Nottingham to see the work being done in that city to reduce alcohol abuse. Communities can do an awful lot on this issue and the Home Office would encourage any such initiatives.

Police Integrity

Debate between Lord Condon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Tuesday 12th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Condon]

My Lords, I declare an interest in policing and the security services. The Government are to be congratulated and supported by all sides of the House on bringing forward this courageous package of measures because it is clearly in the public interest and in the interests of the service to ensure the highest levels of integrity in policing. While there may be concerns about other aspects of police reform, this package is clearly moving in the right direction. When the Minister places a letter in the Library of the House, will he consider including in it a response to just how and when resources will be transferred from individual police services to the IPCC to enable it to carry out its enhanced role? It is not clear at the moment whether only budgets are to be transferred or whether this will involve real, live investigators moving sideways on attachments, moving permanently, and so on. The House would welcome some fairly clear guidance on how this is to operate, but in the round, these proposals are courageous and are to be welcomed.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, who speaks with considerable experience of these matters. I shall certainly do my best to respond promptly to his request for details of the transfer of resources and whether indeed that will involve more than cash and budgets, and will extend to resources. To some degree, the Statement is a starting point for a discussion with individual police forces and, indeed, with police and crime commissioners for they too are engaged in the governance of the police across the country; I hope that that dialogue will be productive. I am sure that noble Lords appreciate that this is considered to be an important development in the integrity of policing.

Police and Crime Commissioners

Debate between Lord Condon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Thursday 13th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I think that the outcome refutes the noble Lord’s suggestion. I am from Lincolnshire where there were two independent candidates along with the party candidates. I am sure that the very fact that people have chosen to elect independent candidates will encourage other independent candidates to put their names forward next time.

[Lord Condon]

My Lords, does the Minister share any of my concern that nearly a third of the newly elected commissioners have appointed well-paid deputies or assistant commissioners without any transparency, selection criteria or adherence to Nolan-type principles?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I should make it clear that the facility for the role of the deputy police and crime commissioner is written into the arrangements, but it is not mandatory. It is indeed not politically restricted and it is designed to assist the PCC in his role. The actual administration of the PCC’s office will be in the control of a finance officer and a head of paid staff. The head of paid staff serves as the monitoring officer. I know the circumstances to which the noble Lord has alluded, but as I have said before, the decisions made by PCCs will be judged by the electorate at the next elections.

Crime and Courts Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Condon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Tuesday 27th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Condon]

My Lords, I declare my registered interests in policing. I find myself supporting the spirit of Amendment 1 and Amendment 3, the first in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and the latter in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the noble Lord, Lord Marks. If the Government resist all these amendments and the spirit behind them, they will miss an important opportunity to improve transparency, accountability, confidence and governance in the new NCA.

At Second Reading and in Committee, I raised the spectre of a disjointed patchwork of policing through the new arrangements. My fear was of a parochial, local network of policing run by the newly elected police and crime commissioners, and an all-powerful National Crime Agency with no supervisory or governance board, with very little in between and no lines connecting them. The Government will miss a vital opportunity here if they hide behind the notion that the NCA deals with important, national issues which only a relationship between the Home Secretary of the day and the director-general can embrace and satisfy. Whatever emerges through a supervisory or advisory board, or some consultative mechanism, we need to have confidence that it will embrace at least one or more of the new police and crime commissioners, representatives of chief constables and perhaps those elsewhere in policing, and the many other stakeholders who are legitimately concerned about how this new policing architecture will work.

I understand that perhaps Amendment 1 is a step too far because there are matters of national importance that maybe only the Secretary of State in the Home Office can have the chairmanship responsibility for. Yet I hope that the Minister will be able to move some way towards reassuring us that the new arrangements, however they emerge, will improve confidence, transparency and accountability in this important new agency, which I wish the very best. I hope it will succeed.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Condon, for his speech and in particular for the goodwill that he demonstrated towards the success of the NCA.

I hope that I do not disappoint noble Lords when I say that I will resist these amendments, but I will address the issue in some detail and fullness. Some of the elements will come up in later debates, but I recognise the importance to noble Lords of this particular group of amendments none the less. They go to the heart of the Government’s arrangements for the NCA. The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, reiterated the position that she outlined in Committee, that the NCA should be led by a statutory board headed by a non-executive chair.

I will come to my noble friend Lady Hamwee’s amendment later, because she talked about a slightly different form of governance. I start by addressing the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and whether it is somehow necessary for the National Crime Agency to have a statutory board. We can establish quite quickly that it is not. The NCA is being established as a Crown body without incorporation. A Crown body without incorporation does not have a separate legal identity from the Crown, so incorporation and a statutory board are not, strictly speaking, required. The functions of the agency are conferred directly on the agency itself, not on a board. This is a tried and tested model for a non-ministerial department and works well for other similar agencies with which noble Lords will be very familiar, such as the Crown Prosecution Service and the Serious Fraud Office.

Not only is no statutory board required, but to create one would be detrimental to the effective governance of the NCA. The noble Lord, Lord Harris, spoke vigorously about the fact that he felt a governance board would be very effective for the NCA. However, we have designed the agency so that the Home Secretary —the elected Government’s representative who is accountable, not to nobody as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, implied, but to Parliament—has clear strategic oversight, while the director-general, who would be an experienced crime fighter, provides the day-to-day operational leadership. Furthermore, we have designed the agency’s governance arrangements so that the director-general will be directly accountable to the Home Secretary, not beholden to a committee. In this way we will ensure that the accountability structures are clear, practical and non-bureaucratic.

The amendments of the noble Baroness seek to mirror the arrangements for the Serious Organised Crime Agency, which was blessed with the traditional quango-type structure, led by a non-executive chair and a board. However, as my noble friend Lord Henley pointed out in Committee, SOCA’s arrangements have risked more bureaucracy rather than more accountability. The current SOCA chair and board are excellent individuals who have done a good job, but to be led by a committee was never the right structure for a law enforcement agency. Police forces are led by chief constables directly accountable to a single individual—the elected police and crime commissioner. The National Crime Agency should similarly have an operational director-general at its head who is directly accountable to the Home Secretary.

The noble Baroness argues that the statutory board will help preserve the director-general’s operational independence. She is perhaps concerned that his operational independence might be dented by too frequent contact with the Home Secretary without the protection of a committee. My noble friend used the word “cosy”. I cannot reconcile that idea with reality. The director-general will be an experienced crime fighter and a strong leader in his or her own right, not a shrinking violet, and that is certainly not how anybody who knows Keith Bristow, nor any noble Lord with direct experience of governance in policing, would describe him.

To put it another way, the relationship between the director-general and the Home Secretary, just like that between chief constables and the police and crime commissioners, will be a robust, professional partnership where both parties have their own roles to play which are set out clearly in the legislation. In particular, Clause 4 establishes the operational decisions test which rests with the director-general. If the legislation is not enough protection, I do not see what a non-executive chair or committee is going to add, other than a further layer of bureaucracy through which the director-general’s discussions with the Home Secretary will have to filter.

Of course, we can all absolutely agree on the importance of good governance for the NCA. While the director-general is rightly ultimately charged with leading the organisation, in doing so he will obviously need and want the advice and challenge of other experienced voices from inside and outside the NCA. Here I can perhaps help noble Lords because the NCA, like other non-ministerial departments without statutory boards, will still need to have a management board to advise the director-general on the strategic direction of the organisation, ensure that there are proper audit and risk arrangements in place and so forth.

The outline framework document has been referred to and we will be discussing it later. I hope noble Lords have been able to see it, and I will try to make sure that copies are available in the Printed Paper Office, if they are not there already. It provides for the board to be established under the chairmanship of the director-general, which my noble friend Lady Hamwee referred to, and it will include non-executive members. The role of those non-executive members, just like non-executive board members anywhere else in government—or outside government, for that matter—will be to advise and challenge the executive on the basis of their outside experience and skills in order to help the organisation do better.

I contrast that picture of non-executive membership with the non-executive posts provided for in Amendment 2. Under the noble Baroness’s proposed model, the NCA board would comprise persons representing the views of police and crime commissioners and chief officers in the different parts of the United Kingdom. The noble Baroness argued that this is needed to ensure that the NCA is sufficiently alive to the interests of those groups. Clearly PCCs and the chiefs of the United Kingdom’s various police forces will be key partners for the NCA. That is why the Bill provides that they will be part of the group of strategic partners and will have the opportunity to influence the strategic direction of the agency through consultation on the NCA’s strategic priorities and the agency’s annual plan. The director-general will also, of course, want to engage personally with chief officers and PCCs across England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland to ensure that the NCA is doing everything it can to help protect their communities from serious and organised crime. He will do that, and is already doing that, through building solid relationships with individual chiefs and PCCs, and through the Association of Chief Police Officers and the new Association of Police and Crime Commissioners. These practical working relationships will ensure that the NCA is alive to the complex needs of communities and of its partners that serve those communities.

Four individuals attending the NCA board could hardly do the same. In seating these individual representatives at the table of the NCA board, the noble Baroness has turned it from a board—in other words, a body which one might expect to focus on using its diverse experience to get the best possible performance from the NCA—into something more like a stakeholder forum for the NCA’s partners to air their views. I believe that the Government’s model is a better one and gives better direct access to the director-general.

My noble friend’s amendment would also create a statutory board for the National Crime Agency, in this case chaired by the Home Secretary with a further ministerial member and a number of non-executive members in addition to the NCA’s executive leadership. This is a similar structure to that adopted by ministerial departments, albeit that has never been set out in statute and nor, as far as I am aware, has anyone called for it to be so set out. I am not persuaded of the case for such a board. I appreciate that my noble friend’s amendment tries to leave the director-general in control of the agency and directly accountable to the Home Secretary by underlining that the board will function subject to the provisions set out in Part 1, but let us be pragmatic here. It will hardly help establish the director-general’s clear operational leadership of the agency if its key leadership body is chaired by the Secretary of State. Furthermore, many corporate management decisions that properly fall to a board—for example, on the people strategy—would not be for the Home Secretary, and she would not see it as her role to chair those sorts of deliberations, since to do so would cut across the director-general’s leadership and direction of the agency. So the director-general would still need to establish and chair an NCA management board to deal with those issues.

Police and Crime Commissioners: Elections

Debate between Lord Condon and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Thursday 11th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That has not been the pattern of elections in the past. Many noble Lords will have participated in elections where turnout has been quite low. I do not believe that that will be the case in these elections. It is interesting that the electorate as a whole are not particularly aware of the role of police authorities and their relationship with police forces. This is a new opportunity to make people aware that there will be direct links between their wishes and the way in which the police force operates in their area. I think that people will take advantage of that.

[Lord Condon]

My Lords, does the noble Lord share my disappointment that very few genuinely independent candidates are standing for the post of police and crime commissioner and that the overwhelming majority of them are locally nominated political nominees?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

It is premature to judge whether many independent candidates are standing. Nominations have not closed. They opened only on Monday and do not close until 19 October. Therefore, we should judge that question nearer the time. Meanwhile, noble Lords—