Industrial Action

Debate between Lord Clarke of Nottingham and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 11th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am here to respond on what happens in the United Kingdom, but if the figures on days lost in France are easily available, then of course I will supply them.

[Lord Clarke of Nottingham (Con)]

My Lords, in principle, I am in favour of the Bill. Obviously, while we must preserve the worker’s right to take industrial action, no responsible person is going to go on strike with consequences that might even threaten the life of fellow citizens if this is taken too far in some public services, such as the health service, at the moment. One would hope that in even the bitterest industrial dispute both sides would have in mind that their argument over whatever aspect of pay, terms or conditions they are at odds on should not lead to serious harm to the greater public good and, in particular, vital things such as people’s health and safety.

I am listening to this debate with interest to see how that essential level of service is to be determined. If we ever face a situation in which strikers are being totally unreasonable and trying to cause immense damage to further their pay claim, that raises all kinds of problems about martial law and everything else to try to keep things going. However, if an employer sets out the minimum level of service in their area—as will be required—how objective will that be? What judgment will be made about what is essential? In theory, could an employer say that all employees should stay at work to maintain an essential level of service? Is there a requirement for some consultation about that level? Can any challenge be placed to the level the employer sets down, short of legal challenge and an attempt for judicial review?

In the present circumstances, we would all like to be reassured that the bitter disputes going on in the public sector, which we all hope will be resolved, will not threaten people’s safety or vital national interests. However, how exactly will we check that the powers of the Bill will not be abused, with some public or private sector employer deciding its own definition of a vital level of employment? In debating the Bill, we will need to have considerable detail and give considerable thought to what it will mean in an industrial dispute in practice, day by day and on the ground, and how it will be applied.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I welcome my noble friend’s support for this legislation in principle. I am happy to reassure him that the minimum service level will not be set by employers; it will be set by Parliament through affirmative regulations. Of course we will consult widely on those regulations. There will be regulations in each individual sector because, as he correctly states, the level varies from sector to sector. This House will vote on those regulations when we bring them forward, but it is our preference not to have to bring them forward. As I mentioned earlier, the nursing unions are very responsible and agree minimum service levels already—voluntarily—so we therefore hope not to need to legislate there, but of course that is not the case for ambulance drivers, where we may need to take action.