European Convention on Human Rights: Protocol 12

Debate between Lord Cashman and Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede

Monday 2nd June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cashman]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have to sign and ratify Protocol 12 to the European Convention on Human Rights to promote the equality of all persons in the United Kingdom through a general prohibition of discrimination.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede) (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government currently have no plans to ratify Protocol 12 of the European Convention on Human Rights. Protocol 12 is a very broadly drafted, free-standing right that creates unpredictability in how it will be given effect by the court, and it is not clear that ratifying it would increase protection from discrimination in the UK. The Equality Act 2010 provides a robust and clear framework within domestic law for combating discrimination.

[Lord Cashman (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, that is a disappointing response. I am not surprised by it, sadly, but I will persevere and try to convince the Government otherwise, along with my friend, the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, who cannot be in his place today, and Professor Paul Johnson of the University of Leeds. I wish to ask a question of the Minister in the wider context. Given the attacks on fundamental human rights that we are witnessing in the United States of America, Gaza, Ukraine, parts of Europe and elsewhere, is now not the time for the United Kingdom to join the 37 other European states of the Council of Europe and reaffirm these international principles, which underpin and in fact define every civilised society?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

The way that I will answer my noble friend is by saying that we continue to keep the case law of the European Court of Human Rights in respect of Protocol 12 under review, but we remain unconvinced of the benefits of ratification. The United Kingdom is not an outlier in this regard. The protocol was open for signature nearly 25 years ago, yet fewer than half the member states of the Council of Europe have ratified it. Nevertheless, I take the noble Lord’s opening point that we need to keep these matters under review. There are indeed widespread attacks on democracy and our way of life across the world, and that reinforces the Government’s view about keeping these matters under review.

Humanist Marriages

Debate between Lord Cashman and Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede

Monday 2nd December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, there are a lot of anomalies within weddings arrangements in England and Wales, and it is for that reason that we want to look at all of them. If we were to go down the route of secondary legislation for humanists, for example, that would create a further anomaly. We do not want to go down that track; we want to look at the whole system in the round.

[Lord Cashman (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, “in good time” and “in the round” are just not good enough. There is a gross unfairness in that couples wishing to have a humanist ceremony in England and Wales must also have a civil ceremony, which means additional cost and outlay. Will the Government, instead of giving excuses, move forward and commit to taking action?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I can say to the noble Lord only what I said to other questioners, which is we want to look at this question in the round. There are many other groups—faith and non-faith—who also feel they are not fairly treated by the current arrangements, and we want to take their views into account when we look at this.

Illegal Migration Bill

Debate between Lord Cashman and Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede

Consideration of Commons amendments
Wednesday 12th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cashman (Lab)]

My Lords, I will speak very briefly to the amendment in lieu, in Motion G1, in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton. Taking what the Government have said at face value on their protections of LGBT people, I ask them to accept the amendment, because it reinforces the principle of the protection of LGBT people and others.

On reflection, I point out that, of the 58 countries that currently criminalise homosexuality—and they are on the increase, as we have seen with Uganda—over 50% are in the Commonwealth. They are countries with which we are more than likely to reach safe third country agreements. Furthermore, 11 countries currently have the death penalty, and there is further agitation for the increase of that across other states. I therefore argue that the amendment is proportionate and necessary.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, on getting a concession from the Government and understand the point he made with his Motion, which I understand he will not move. I am pleased that it has been accommodated.

The noble Lord, Lord German, explained his amendment extremely well; it provides a backstop for the taxpayer to stop people going into legal limbo, being a burden on the taxpayer indefinitely and getting into the grey area which so many in this situation are in right now. As he said, it is totally in line with the Government’s expectations of the Bill, so if the noble Lord chooses to press his Motion F1 then we will support it.

My noble friend Lord Cashman summed up the support for Motion G1, in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton. If he chooses to move it, we will support him. As my noble friend said, it reinforces the principle of protection for LGBT people. In the words of the noble and learned Lord, Schedule 1 should not provide a veneer of respectability to certain countries that are currently on it, so we would support him.