Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Elystan-Morgan

Tuesday 27th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I wish to intervene briefly in this debate. I have come into the Chamber for the scrap metal debate but it seems to me that we may be overlooking a major flaw in the amendment. Clause 145 states:

“A person commits an offence if”,

and then lists various conditions. However, the amendment seeks to add to the statement in the Bill that,

“The offence is not committed by a person”,

the phrase,

“if the building has been empty twelve months or more and is not subject to a current planning application”.

So what happens if a building has been empty for marginally longer than 12 months and is being improved? Perhaps it is being improved to meet building regulations, or the person improving the property might be awaiting a mortgage payment to fund improvements, which might mean that they go over the 12-month period.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

I will be corrected if I am wrong but I believe that that matter is adequately dealt with by Section 7 of the Criminal Law Act 1977, which covers not only persons who are in occupation but persons who anticipate occupation. I think, therefore, that the category of persons listed by the noble Lord will be covered by that provision.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

That is the noble Lord’s judgment, but perhaps I may finish my contribution. Perhaps the Government intend to comment on the interpretation that he has just given. They might also take into account my further point that a planned improvement which has not taken place over a 12-month period could be the subject of an argument with neighbours, who may well be preventing the completion of the improvement to the property. All I am saying, basically, is that to introduce a current planning application as a way of stopping it could lead to unfair treatment of those carrying out improvement programmes. Let us hear what the Minister has to say.