Covid-19 Update

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bethell

Thursday 8th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

I am afraid we cannot have in place laws on the intimate practicalities of people’s lives for the long term. We do not have a law on sneezing. I would not think of sneezing in the presence of noble Lords, but I do not accept that I should be given a fine for doing so.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, following calls from the BMA, the RCM and Cambridge University Hospitals, can we have an assurance that in every setting where health workers are caring for patients with suspected or confirmed coronavirus, the health worker will be wearing at least a close-fitting FFP3 mask, thereby maximising personal protection? Can we be assured that the wearing of regular masks in such conditions will not be permitted? Mask specification is critical in healthcare settings.

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord’s expertise on mask specification is well known in the Chamber and I bow to his greater knowledge on this. Of course, healthcare workers, social care workers and anyone exposed to those known to be carrying coronavirus should have entirely appropriate and significant protection. I do not know the precise mask numbers, but I would be glad to write to the noble Lord to confirm the current guidelines.

Covid-19 Update

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 6th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I am not aware of all the details of the latest Statement. It is my understanding that there is substance there; I gather that there will be change and I look forward to reading about that.

The noble Lord gives me an opportunity to reflect widely, and I hope he does not mind if I do so. There have been lots of uncomfortable inconsistencies and moments of disproportionality where noble Lords have rightly challenged the Government as to whether they have got every dotted “i” and crossed “t” absolutely right. The singing issue is probably the most graphic and certainly the most discussed example. I will personally be hugely relieved if we can move on from the current situation.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, is it not obvious that if you reduce mask wearing on public transport and in public places, those who believe they are more exposed to the virus will then reduce their use of public transport and avoid public places? People who are fearful of more liberated environments will avoid them, leading to a slowdown in the return to work that the Government want. Indeed, it is the reverse of what the Government want. Why remove those restrictions that offer the only way of securing public confidence in the new regime that is being proposed?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

I applaud the noble Lord for his advocacy of mask wearing, but of course this issue cuts both ways. He is right that we need to build back trust in sharing space with one another, but I am not sure that mandatory mask wearing either builds trust or erodes it. If we give people the impression that wearing masks is somehow a panacea that protects everyone on a tube train or in a lift, that is a false impression. Masks are not a panacea. In fact, for some people, they can be a source of grave concern and be enough to send them back home to seek safety. I take the noble Lord’s point that we have to be clear about this, but I am not sure that mandatory mask wearing, or even ubiquitous mask wearing, is either a universal antidote to the spread of the disease or necessarily builds trust in the manner he describes.

Covid-19 Update

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 15th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes the case extremely well, and I agree with her sentiment that the rules are extremely tough. I have heard loud and clear the many noble Lords who have made this case, and we look at it very carefully and thoroughly. At the beginning of the pandemic, one of the most alarming images—and one that has always stuck in my mind—was that of care homes in Spain in Italy, where so many of the residents had died. What we know for sure is that, even with the vaccine, the virus can spread through a care home at great pace—typically half of residents will be infected the moment the virus arrives in a care home. Even with the vaccine, we still have to step carefully, and that is why these measures are still in place. I very much hope that they will be lifted, and I will celebrate that along with all noble Lords who have made this case to me in the past.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, following the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Sugg, when Gordon Brown called the G7 summit an “unforgivable moral failure”, was he not right? With potentially billions to vaccinate, the West has miserably abandoned the moral high ground on vaccine supply, leaving it to the Chinese and Russians to win new friends and secure influence worldwide. Has not Prime Minister Johnson, with his short-sighted, unimaginative approach, damaged our credibility across the world? We should have been a major worldwide vaccine distributor-producer; we failed, and we failed miserably.

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

No, I am afraid the noble Lord completely overstates the case; I do not accept the characterisation he has made at all. The challenge is enormous, and he is right to feel that this is one of the most important tasks for humanity in the round—I cannot emphasise that enough. But the practicalities are that, in Britain, we make hardly any vaccine at all. It is not for us as a nation to manufacture the vaccine. Where we have contributed is, first, through the science—particularly the AstraZeneca vaccine—and, secondly, through global leadership. The Prime Minister, through the G7, has sought to use that post as much as he can, in order to promote the vaccine. I do not accept that China and Russia have in any way contributed anything like the West has done; the numbers simply do not support that. We are working extremely closely with the regions of the world—with Africa, South America and beyond—in order to set up the kind of manufacturing that those countries need to provide their people with the safety from the virus that they deserve.

Covid-19: Variant B.1.617.2

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bethell

Wednesday 26th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

I have read reports about the fungus the noble Baroness describes, and they are absolutely chilling and a source of grave concern. I am not aware of that being a threat to British public health; I feel sure that Public Health England is watching it extremely carefully. I take note of the noble Baroness’s point about medicine being in short supply. I will be glad to look into it more closely and write to her with more details.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]]

Do Ministers accept that more patient choice would help in dealing with problems over spread due to vaccine hesitancy? Having in mind data on vaccine hesitancy in the case of the AstraZeneca vaccine, when will we have a decision on the authorisation of vaccines of a different brand to deal with vaccine brand hesitancy?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

That has not been the feedback from the public in the round. There are significant issues around the supply of vaccine, and we very much take an approach of getting the vaccine out of the warehouse and into the arms of the public in as speedy a manner as we possibly can. We are not aware of a huge amount of brand prejudice among the public, and that is entirely right, because all the vaccines are effective: that is the view of the MHRA, the JCVI and the British public.

Covid-19: Vaccine

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 12th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I remind the noble Baroness that Pfizer is not a regulator, nor is the WHO. Other countries are working on vaccines, but they are behind the UK in terms of authorisation and rollout. I reassure her that there is data, which is published on the internet. I tweeted a copy of it late last night, and I invite her to have a good, close look at it because it is absolutely categoric: one dose is enough.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]]

There is a heated debate going on in the United States, as reported on CNN, over the incidence in use and registration of both the first and necessary second vaccinations with particular concern over the second, without which the first is less effective, despite what the Minister has just said. What plans do the Government have in the United Kingdom to ensure compliance with the necessary take-up of the second vaccination and the registration of both by the authorities?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

The noble Lord is entirely right: the second dose is important. However, it is important not for efficacy but for durability. We have put in substantial data provisions to record every single dose into every single arm, and to put a follow-up dose into exactly those arms. We are using the NIMS system and every single vaccination is put into the GP record. They will be tracked down extremely diligently for exactly the reasons that the noble Lord describes.

Covid-19 Update

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 15th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con) [V]]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Mackenzie, makes a powerful case. There is undoubtedly a dilemma about what we should do in the approach to Christmas. The country does deserve a break, because it has done so much this year to contain the virus, and yet the consequences of too much social mingling are harsh, as he rightly describes. I reassure him that we have done a huge amount to restart elective surgery and other diagnostics and to get the NHS working as hard as we possibly can. It is our objective to ensure that the non-Covid death rate is not affected by the Covid response.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, can I return to the issue of masks, which I have been pushing since February? With London in lockdown, a new variant and the prospect of an explosion in transmission in the new year, why not, in this rapidly developing crisis, adopt a vigorous belt-and-braces approach, follow worldwide mandatory practice and require mask wearing in all public places outside the home? Why not ban the use of valved masks, apart from in clinical settings? They protect only the wearer. Now is the time for really tough decisions; there is a big crisis that confronts us.

[Lord Bethell (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I pay tribute to the campaign and advocacy by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, on masks. He has moved the needle on this subject. I would argue, perhaps, that there is a huge amount of mask-wearing, particularly in public places; certainly in shops, on transport and even in the House of Lords, mask-wearing has become mandatory. So, he has already come a long way. We continue to review additional options in this area. His point on valve masks is extremely well made and is one that I have made to the relevant officials.

Covid-19: Vaccine

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bethell

Wednesday 11th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is entirely right that the range of people who can administer this vaccine is extremely wide. The challenge of administering so many vaccines in such a short amount of time will indeed require the involvement of a large range of people. We are putting in the recruitment and training necessary for that to happen. I am particularly grateful to all healthcare workers, particularly those from professions such as the pharmacy industry, who are stepping forward to meet this challenge. We are not allergic, though, to using the private sector in this matter, and we will be explaining the detailed terms of our arrangements at a later date.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]]

I plead with the Minister to ensure that whatever arrangements are being made for rapid result testing and vaccination, absolute priority is given to the vulnerable, itinerant, homeless and occupants of night shelters, for the earliest possible access to testing, when the new rapid testing regime is introduced, and for vaccination. They are very vulnerable people, and that is the least we can do for those in need.

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a persuasive case for those who are most vulnerable, including the itinerant and the homeless. We have seen for ourselves the impact of the disease on those who live in close quarters with each other, have health vulnerabilities or are exposed to the disease due to the nature of their circumstances. Those who are most vulnerable should surely be at the top of the list. I do not know the precise arrangements for the homeless and itinerant, but he makes an extremely good point, and I would be glad to get back to him with details.

Covid-19 Update

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bethell

Monday 14th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, asylum hostels are one example of a very great many that will have to put thoughtful arrangements in place in order to comply with the rule of six. I pay tribute to their efforts.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, why insist on a mask-wearing policy totally at variance with international practice? Surely, by now the Government can admit to the major benefits: they alert others to danger, signal an element of risk and, when worn without valves, protect both users and those in the immediate vicinity. Therefore, why not revisit the whole policy and promote the enforcement of wider and appropriate usage—a very, very much needed U-turn?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to the noble Lord’s campaigning on this issue; he has contributed to the Government changing their strategy on mask wearing. However, we are here discussing the onerous burden that these measures put on people in this country, and we have to be careful not to overburden them. The CMO’s guidance on masks is that the science remains ambiguous. I know the noble Lord does not agree with that, but that is the CMO’s advice. We have come a long way on masks in order to change policy on this and, as the scientific evidence changes, we will review that policy.

Covid-19 Update

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bethell

Wednesday 1st July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Lord stretches my scientific expertise to the limit, but my understanding from the CMO is that a distinctive feature of this virus is its surprising lack of mutation. It has proved to be an extremely sturdy and consistent virus. While many viruses get less deadly but more infectious, this one has remained pretty much the same. Cures for coronaviruses, particularly those that hit the lungs, are extremely rare and difficult to track down. I am advised that a vaccine is the quickest and most effective route, and I am extremely pleased that, in Imperial and Oxford, Britain has two of the leading vaccine candidates.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, last week I raised the issue of the report by the German IZA Institute of Labor Economics entitled Face Masks Considerably Reduce COVID-19 Cases in Germany: A Synthetic Control Method Approach. I had asked that the Minister arrange a fully considered response to me in a letter on the report’s findings. On that occasion, the Minister, who is always courteous, failed, probably inadvertently, to give me that assurance. Can I now have that assurance please?

[Lord Bethell]

My Lords, I remember the incident well and I intended no discourtesy whatever. I reassure the noble Lord that I left the Chamber and instructed my officials to draft that letter; on leaving today, I will chase it down and ensure that it goes to him speedily.

Covid-19: Response

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 19th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Baroness is entirely right that the deaths of those with learning difficulties have been one of the most disturbing and sad aspects of this disease. We are focused very much on ensuring that we protect those with learning difficulties, such as those with autism, in whatever way we can. With regard to recurrent testing, the tests that we have are not a limitless resource and we have to prioritise them. Although we have massively increased the number of tests that we have, it is not possible to test millions of people on a very regular basis with hundreds of thousands of tests. However, we are using them intelligently and prioritising areas where there are infection control problems. We believe that that is the most effective way of using our resources.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

I want to return to the issue of face masks, which I have been raising with the Minister since early March. Are Ministers following the intense debate going on among a worldwide line-up of international experts, particularly virologists, who forcefully argue the need for their use? If Ministers are not, will they now ask their civil servants to dig out the hundreds if not thousands of articles and research papers written by those experts, which have convinced over 50 countries worldwide to introduce face masks on a mandatory basis? The position that we are taking looks increasingly ludicrous.

Health Protection (Coronavirus) Regulations 2020

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bethell

Monday 9th March 2020 Grand Committee

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Baroness makes a very reasonable point. My understanding is that this decision was made not on a personnel basis but on an administrative basis. We are seeking to restrict the number of people who are able to execute these potentially quite serious powers. Having a list of available people is a legally clear and responsible way of doing things, but creating a new administrative definition goes beyond the powers of these regulations. However, I have already taken on board the noble Baroness’s points about the role of directors of public health in this epidemic. Those points have been listened to and are being followed up, and I will continue the dialogue that we already have in place on that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, asked why the 2008 powers are not sufficient. The answer is that it is mainly for practical reasons. The 2008 Section 2A powers give local councils powers but mobilising local councils to do things, sometimes at the weekend, sometimes at ports where they are not necessarily administratively present and sometimes overnight, is administratively a challenge. We found that in practice during the containment at Arrowe Park, it was really Public Health England officials on the ground who dealt with the situation and who needed these powers both in their back pocket and in their administration of the situation. That is why we have sought to do this. It is fair to say that a lessons-learned review is expected in the years to come and this will be the kind of issue that we will look at again.

The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, asked what the difference is between detention and isolation. Although I do not have the legal definitions in front of me, my understanding is that isolation can be in someone’s house—literally holding them away from the rest of society—whereas detention involves confining someone to a place that they cannot leave, such as a police cell or a jail. Both are covered in these regulations. It is worth saying that you could, for instance, seek to isolate someone in a hotel room near the Arrowe Park facility and that would be covered.

The noble Baroness also asked about magistrates’ courts. I reassure her that MoJ colleagues were fully consulted on this and they did not see a problem. The objective was to try to create a low bar for an appeal to make the appeal process as easy and accessible as possible, recognising that these are very serious powers and we want to make them as sensitive as possible. In terms of police involvement and whether the police would wear suitable suits, they absolutely would. Police officials are highly protective of their workforce. Public Health England is working closely with the police to ensure that they have both the guidelines and the kit necessary to protect the workforce.

On the term of the regulations, I agree with the noble Baroness that two years is longer than we hope or pray this virus will continue. However, the advice from the CMO was that we cannot necessarily plan for that. Viruses sometimes last longer than expected; they can create multiple strains, and it may take time to have the lessons-learned review and to bring in new powers. That said, it is also possible that a coronavirus Bill that overtakes these regulations will be brought to the House later this month and the sunset clauses would necessarily be included in that.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Will the Minister reconsider something that he said to me? He said that he could not answer many of the questions that I asked. Almost all of them were to do with contamination, and virologists can answer them—I am told by a virologist that they can all be answered; we went very carefully through them. Can the Minister take each of the questions that I asked and answer them individually on the basis that virologists will be able to give him the information that he requires?

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, is entirely right to press me on this. I should be honest: obviously, I am not a doctor. However, we have arranged for another briefing from the Chief Medical Officer in Room G at 4 pm tomorrow. He is the epidemiologist who can convey to the noble Lord both the extent and limits of current understanding of the virus. I have sat with him sufficiently long to have the impression that a lot of speculation, guidelines and history are associated with such viruses that we might reasonably apply to this one. However, its behaviours are not fully understood. Although the genome is broken, we do not fully understand its genetic makeup. The advice from the CMO generally is to hold back on pretending to understand things that are not yet fully explored.

[Baroness Thornton]

I say to my noble friend that I would not use the internet as my source of information on any of these issues. I would use the BBC, which has been running extra programmes—in fact, I have just received an email from the head of the World Service listing all the extra programmes that the BBC is producing which will give us lots of advice. Its website is useful. I want to put it on the record to my noble friend that I would steer clear of those sorts of discussions on the internet and look at the BBC’s websites.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The great majority of the British population will not go into some of the technical areas that my noble friend would go into. That is why I am trying to find a single source of information for people to be able to go to which is authoritative and gives answers, with the latest information and knowledge available, on each of the questions I have asked. I persist in believing that the Government should arrange for this information to be made part of the public debate, because it would be helpful to everyone concerned.

[Lord Bethell]

I understand the point and will take it back to the department.

The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, asked about testing. She is entirely right to focus on that, because we are at the stage of the cycle when questions about testing are very much on our minds. She asked where we were focusing our testing. The most important area for testing is those people who are most vulnerable but who might have the virus. She is entirely right that someone who tests negative today may well test positive tomorrow. Where that is most dangerous is within hospitals. Hospitals are centres of infection. It is one reason why, if you phone 111, they recommend that you do not go to your hospital or your GP. Therefore, testing within hospitals is where we are focusing our resources.

I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, that we are moving incredibly quickly to increase capacity of ECMO beds. There will be a huge amount of pressure —we cannot hide that—but those most in need are being prioritised. Training is going on to support those with the technical knowledge of how to run the equipment and purchasing is going on to create new kit.

On reregistration of clinical professionals, all the concerns raised in Committee and in the Chamber about the provenance of people seeking to reregister are fully understood. Provision is being made to make sure that criminal record checks and competence checks are in place. However, these remain incredibly valuable and skilled people who can support us, so we are determined to mobilise them if possible.

Coronavirus (COVID-19)

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bethell

Tuesday 3rd March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell]

My Lords, this Government are committed to doing whatever it takes medicinally to tackle this epidemic. We will not allow regulations to stand in the way.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, I listened very carefully to the Minister’s comments on behavioural change and discouragement, but there is nothing of any substance in this Statement on the provision of early information that could affect personal conduct—which is very important on this—particularly for the elderly, apart from hand-washing and tissue cover when coughing. The public want detailed information now on transmission points—where they are and what they are—and on the life of the virus under various conditions. Detailed, authoritative information will influence personal conduct. In my view, personal conduct may well be more important than what the Government do. At the moment, all we have is an internet riddled with rumour, speculation and unattributable advice. The Government have missed a real opportunity. Can we have far more detailed information at this stage?

I am also concerned about the conflation of statistics on the risk of mortality. The 1% to 2% figure is misleading. Among the over-70s, the figure is 8%; among the over-80s, it is 14.8%. If you have underlying health conditions, it is even higher. Why can Ministers not be more up front on the elderly? I understand that the stats I have just given are now being repeated by the Government, but not openly.

[Lord Bethell]

My Lords, there is an enormous amount of detailed information on the Public Health England website. I will be glad to forward the noble Lord a link if needed. I completely share his profound desire to know all the details of how the virus behaves, but at this stage we simply do not have that information. It is not being withheld; there is no secret to this. The behaviour takes time to be analysed and pinned down. Our scientists are working incredibly hard to get that information and it will be shared as soon as we have it. I share his frustration about the fake news and data; different people are using different numbers and there are clearly people muddying the waters. The Government are organising significant investment in resources to tackle fake news.

Wuhan Coronavirus

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bethell

Wednesday 26th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, I have half a lung following surgery for a tumour and COPD on the residual lobes. I am over 70 and therefore form part of the group of thousands—potentially hundreds of thousands—who are at particular risk from this virus. When the virus reaches London in conditions of a pandemic, and perhaps even before, I am likely to withdraw from the House for a period of time. For vulnerable groups, advice to wash hands, use tissues and self-isolate is totally and utterly inadequate. Those in vulnerable groups risk loss of life and are entitled to far more detailed information. With that in mind, will Ministers reply individually and in detail to each of the many questions that I, following consultation, shall be asking either in the House or by way of correspondence? There are a large number of questions that vulnerable groups will want answered. Could the answers be distributed more widely? Be of no doubt: in the absence of detailed advice, lives will be lost.

[Lord Bethell]

The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, makes his point extremely well. I cannot believe that there is anyone in this House who does not have a relative, friend or loved one who is in the same situation. When we look closely at this virus, it causes enormous anxiety. It is part of the Government’s role to ensure not only that information is provided and distributed effectively and energetically, in the way he described, but that this is done in a reasonable, paced way that does not create panic and alarm. The Government lean towards early action on the virus, pre-empting issues and having the right information, data and measures in place. That has been the philosophy of our response from the very beginning. The communications that he described, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, are exactly the kind of materials that we are working on right now. They will be distributed with the energy and determination that he described.