Royal Bank of Scotland

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Kramer

Wednesday 1st July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, both opposition parties have already asked a question, but the Labour Party fielded its Front Bench first, so, arguably, it should be the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours.

Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles (Amendment) Regulations 2015

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Kramer

Tuesday 24th February 2015 Grand Committee

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Kramer) (LD)]

My Lords, these draft regulations are being made to change the class of electrically assisted pedal cycles—EAPCs—that are not treated as motor vehicles when used on roads in Great Britain. The changes are intended to encourage the use of EAPCs to the benefit of both individuals and businesses.

The current regulations came into force in 1983. They set out the requirements that EAPCs must satisfy in order for them not to be treated as motor vehicles when used on roads. Compliant EAPCs are not subject to vehicle excise duty and do not need to be registered or insured. Riders are not required to hold a driving licence, although no one under 14 is allowed to ride one on roads. The requirements that have to be satisfied in order for EAPCs not to be treated as motor vehicles on roads relate to their weight, the maximum power of the motor and the speed at which electric assistance cuts off. The EAPC must be capable of being propelled solely by pedals, for example, in the event of a depleted battery or motor failure. However, in practice, it is our understanding that most users pedal their machines and that, for those where a separate throttle is fitted, the riders mix the power delivery between pedalling and the throttle control.

Since 1983, there have been significant improvements to technology, in particular in relation to power supply, where heavy lead-acid batteries have largely been superseded by lighter and more efficient lithium-ion batteries. Attitudes towards cycle use, both for consumers and businesses, have also been transformed with regard to congestion, operating costs, emissions and health. Finally, legislation and standards in Europe have changed. In 2013, a new EU framework regulation on the mandatory type approval of two or three-wheel vehicles and quadricycles was not applied to a class of EAPCs. The current GB requirements are more restrictive, so it is right that we now make harmonising changes to provide a wider choice of products for individuals and businesses.

We began a review of the EAPC requirements in 2010, with an initial consultation on limited changes. Further views were received via the Government’s Red Tape Challenge Review in the following year. We then commissioned the Transport Research Laboratory to,

“gather, generate and expert-review evidence from a wide variety of sources (including Red Tape Challenge and the 2010 EAPC consultation responses) on the forces and pressures influencing pedal cycle construction, sale and use in Great Britain, and provide DfT with costed, practical and appropriate options for legislative change”.

The amending legislation now before the Committee is thus the culmination of careful and extensive consideration.

Three main changes are proposed. First, the maximum motor power for bicycles is to be increased from 200 watts to 250 watts. That matches the most popular EAPCs manufactured for the EU market and will alone significantly increase the choice of products available to our consumers. Secondly, we have decided to remove all the current weight limits for EAPCs—that is, the 40 kilogram limit for bicycles other than tandems or tricycles and the 60 kilogram limit for tandems and tricycles. Again, this matches the position elsewhere in Europe.

Concern has been particularly expressed by Transport for London and the Mayor of London regarding allowing EAPCs not treated as motor vehicles on the roads to be heavier, but we are satisfied that the change is largely self-limiting as a 250-watt motor is simply not going to provide enough power to move an unacceptably heavy load. We have no evidence from other European countries, where these vehicles have been in use for some time, to suggest that they pose safety risks. Our review of the current position has indicated that a realistic unladen weight for a cargo tricycle is between 125 kilograms and 150 kilograms, well above the current weight limit of 60 kilograms. The existing weight limit forces manufacturers to use parts and materials that are not suitable for commercial use. The removal of the limit could encourage the use of innovative design and allow a greater choice of construction materials. The third change is to allow vehicles with more than three wheels to be classified as EAPCs. There is not much evidence of demand for such vehicles at present, but we consider that harmonising with the European convention in this respect has the potential to stimulate demand, particularly for light urban delivery vehicles.

I previously mentioned the electric assist cut-off speed. We plan a harmonising change from 15 to 15.5 miles per hour. This is simply to align with the European standard of 25 kilometres per hour. However, unlike the EU, we will continue to include EAPCs— those that can be powered solely by the electric motor by virtue of a throttle or switch—of up to speeds of 15.5 mph in the category of EAPCs that are not treated as motor vehicles on roads. We believe that this is a distinct benefit to our disabled and elderly users. Finally, we are taking the opportunity to replace references to a withdrawn British standard on power measurement with the latest British and European equivalent and to recognise any other comparable European measurements.

Our impact assessment of the changes anticipates that they will stimulate significant growth in EAPC sales. That growth is forecast to deliver savings to consumers of between £92 million and £267 million over the next 10 years through car operating cost savings, health benefits, reduced congestion and wider impacts. Businesses are forecast to save between £5.8 million and £22.9 million through congestion savings, and goods delivery and van operational savings. The net annual benefit to businesses is estimated to be just over £0.6 million per year. Overall, the changes have been widely welcomed by the majority of the stakeholders and individuals who commented on the draft legislation. I beg to move.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, while this might not be the greatest issue confronting Parliament, it is actually quite an important little change. A couple of years ago I did some research into these bikes. Indeed, I have just sent a note to the Minister’s civil servants to check on a particular kind of vehicle which I thought might have fallen within this designation, but I understand that that is not the case because it does not have pedals. During the course of her speech, the Minister said that bikes without pedals might, at some stage in the future, be the subject of an amendment to the law. I think I heard that correctly.

The bikes I am referring to do not have pedals and do not exceed 15.5 miles per hour, so they cannot go very fast. They do not need an MOT, nor do people need a licence or insurance for them. People do not need to use a helmet at the moment or pay road tax. There is very little difference between these bikes and the electrically assisted bikes or mopeds that are covered by the order before the Committee. To what extent will genuine consideration be made of these more advanced vehicles without pedals?

I would imagine that nationally there are a lot of bikes being held in stock that fall under the old regulations. I have seen these bikes in Tesco, where they cost around £450. I presume that a number of retailers must be holding stocks under the old regulations. Were they consulted and did they express a view on whether the implementation of this regulation should be delayed?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Rosser]

I thank my noble friend for that intervention. One of the questions I raised earlier was whether there is still a requirement for pedals or whether it has been removed, which is part of the point that my noble friend has made. I think that is probably the situation, but I am asking for confirmation that it is still there.

My final point—I am sure to everybody’s great relief—is that the net present value of business benefits reflected here, which I assume means increased bike sales, is quoted in paragraph 5.14 of the impact assessment as being £2.7 million to £10.3 million over the period 2015-24, but in paragraph 5.26 of the same document as being £2.6 million to £10 million. Is that simply a case of slightly different figures being quoted or am I not comparing like with like? If I am not comparing like with like, what are the different factors taken into account in the two sets of figures? Can the Minister say whether the net present value of business benefits are in addition to or included in the overall widely different benefit figures of £97 million and £290 million? I assume that they are in addition to them, but I would be grateful for confirmation.

I have raised a number of questions which arise from, frankly, basically one read of the impact assessment. I am afraid I could not face going through it again, and if I had gone through it again I might well have found the answers to some of the questions that I have raised. I do not want anybody to take that as a derogatory comment about the impact assessment. It contains some very interesting statistics and information, and I appreciate having received it. I would not wish my comments to be taken as a hostile reaction to it.

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, I am grateful that the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, did not read the impact assessment another two or three times because I suspect he would have come forward with other questions and queries. I will make sure that those who prepared the impact assessment are told of his compliments, if I may take them that way, on the detail that has been provided.

In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, and partly to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, I think the vehicle the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, described is classified as a low-powered moped and that it would be sensible to have a conversation after this Committee to understand exactly what kind of non-pedal bike he is talking about.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

They are vehicles which at the moment carry a limit of a 200-watt motor and cannot exceed 40 kilograms.

[Baroness Kramer]

I think we will have to investigate that because the noble Lord deserves a more detailed response. These regulations apply to vehicles which must have a pedalling capacity, so that continues in place. Only those kinds of vehicles are covered by these regulations. I will look at the regimes for the other vehicles the noble Lord has described.

I will just try to address some of the questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, although he has kindly said that we could respond in writing. Particularly when comparative numbers are involved, that will be a wise approach, but I shall make some more general comments around the questions he raised. For example, he asked where the benefits for this would come from and whether it was because of a particular aspect of the change in regulation. The argument as I understand it—it makes sense to me—is that it is the harmonisation which creates the change because it means that suddenly people in the UK are able to access the much wider range of models available in continental Europe but which have not been available here because, under the British classification, they would have required registration, taxation, insurance, licensing and so on. A much greater range of models will suddenly become available.

He asked whether that could have an impact on UK bicycle manufacturers. I would argue that for them one of the most hampering experiences has been the need to produce one bike for the British market and another model to compete effectively in the European market. With harmonisation, they can now look at a model that reaches the entire population of the EU, which should change the dynamic significantly. Having a single market, as it were, for electrically assisted pedal cycles creates an opportunity for UK manufacturers to focus not just on the domestic market alone but on a far broader market. That is potentially a very significant opportunity for them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I am sorry to come back on the question of pedals. Is any work being done on whether we can change the regulations to include vehicles without pedals subject to exactly the same limits as the ones with pedals? That would be of great interest to the industry—because if we could develop that, we would have a winner.

[Baroness Kramer]

I do not know. This is not an area on which I have direct policy responsibility, so I do not know of any work that is happening. I would be glad to share with the noble Lord any particular work that is being done. On the other hand, the department is always looking at technology. At times we have looked at things such as Segways, and there is constant discussion about mobility scooters, so there is a constant lookout for different technologies to see whether they require an adjustment in regulation. But at this moment I know of nothing.

Under EU law, this regime could not apply to vehicles without pedals. I am not aware of what other regimes could be available. We will write to the noble Lord if there is anything happening that would help flush out some of the issues he has raised.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, continued the discussion about three-wheeled and four-wheeled vehicles and whether there are particular safety risks around them or around changing the regulations. We have a lot of continental European experience to look at, and after reviewing that information there is nothing to indicate that there is any particular safety risk associated with changing these parameters. Relatively few four-wheeled vehicles are sold, and most tricycles that are sold are towards the heavier end of the permitted range and are quite difficult to manoeuvre—but nothing has indicated to us that there are any particular safety risks.

I hope that I have covered most of the questions. There were quite a number of very specific questions and I will be glad to follow up on them. I sense a general understanding that this is a sensible measure for us to support. I hope that the Committee will support the Motion.

Vehicles: Heavy Goods Vehicles

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Kramer

Tuesday 8th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kramer]

However, I am sure that there were also no accidents or breaking of the rules.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, the Question was about the use of trade plates and in what circumstances truckers would want to use them. Is there not a restriction on the amount of time they can run on trade plates?

[Baroness Kramer]

I will write to the noble Lord with more detail on that. This is about vehicles that have not yet been put into service, so the various restrictions are around that. I will send him more detail on that.

Procedure of the House (Proposal 3)

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Kramer

Tuesday 8th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, perhaps I may pick up on the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall. I, too, am agnostic about the particular form, but the example that 25 words would make is perhaps one that the House would take on board. A short question takes a lot of hard work to frame but is probably the greatest courtesy that any noble Lord can pay to the House. The more questions we have on any particular topic, the better the range of issues around that topic is covered. I know that frequently only five supplementary questions are put, whereas I must say, coming from the Commons, I would have thought that closer to 10 supplementary questions are put in an equivalent time. That would be appropriate. We should somehow absorb the self-discipline of not believing that it is necessary to lay out the full background to a question, and then because our questions are so important, to ensure that two or three are wrapped into what is meant to be one supplementary question. But that is going to require the Leader of the House, the Leaders of other parties and perhaps the Members of longest standing who have real influence in this House actually to enforce the process. Perhaps then newer Members, who very rarely get to open their mouths in this place, will have an opportunity genuinely to contribute where they have real expertise.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, the problem with that as a proposition is that it does not work. We have been arguing for that for the past 10 years. I can think of innumerable occasions where Members have sought to try to stop people asking long supplementary questions, but I can guarantee the House that tomorrow it will happen again, and that it will happen on Statements. It is because we simply do not enforce the rules of the House. It is a problem that this House will ultimately have to address.