Health and Social Care Bill

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 28th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thornton]

I thank the Minister for that statement, of which I did not have more than two minutes’ notice. It is very disappointing indeed. Basically, the noble Earl is saying that the Government are choosing what they do and do not disclose to the Committee on this matter. It is an issue of trust—whether or not we can trust that we will know what we need to know to make judgments about whether this Bill will work.

I thank the noble Earl for the issues that he has decided that the Government can let us know about, but of course I am therefore concerned about what the issues are that the Government have decided that we should not know about. What are the risks that we cannot know about? That is a matter of grave concern to the Committee.

I shall be looking in detail at the Minister’s statement to the House and I reserve the right to return to this matter if I feel that we need to. For example, during the last two days in Committee I put two direct questions to the Minister about whether certain matters—one concerning children—were on the risk register and what the register said about them. I have not received answers to either of those questions. I shall continue to put my questions in that context and I suggest that other noble Lords do the same.

I am very grateful for the Statement as far as it goes but I do not think that this is an end to the matter. I can see why the Government might think that there is a cross-government issue here. However, no other department is in the position in which we find ourselves here—that of discussing a Bill that is going through the House right now. We need full information on this matter in order to be able to make proper decisions but I believe that we still do not have that. Therefore, I thank the noble Earl so far as this goes but I reserve the right to return to the issue in due course.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Perhaps I may ask the Minister a question. He gave us a list of all the areas which he thought it was not possible for Parliament to scrutinise in some detail. Did the Information Commissioner have access to all the document headings to which the Minister has referred, and did he have the opportunity to read all the documentation under those headings? If the Information Commissioner did have access to information on, for example, the handling of the legislation as it goes through Parliament, why did he, throughout the whole report, repeatedly say that these matters should be placed in the public domain? Again, is it not clear that the Government are trying to hide something from Parliament? The Minister’s first reference was to the handling of the legislation by Parliament. Why should not Parliament see what considerations took place within the department concerning how legislation should be handled as it goes through this House?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, my clear understanding is that the Information Commissioner had full access to the risk register so that he would be able to see for himself what it contained. I do not believe that anything material was withheld from him. The whole purpose of risk registers of this type is to record all risks, even the unthinkable and the highly unlikely actual risks, as well as potential risks—in other words, risks that may not arise in the future but which could be mitigated with action today. Such risk registers record mitigating actions so that the risks identified do not become a reality. In our clear view, exposing that kind of information could cause needless concern, set hares running and seriously undermine confidence in the programme of work. No Government of any persuasion have routinely made risk registers of this type public for the very reason that to do so would undermine open and frank discussion among policy-makers for fear that the policy would be made public before it was fully developed.

The department has published and discussed its proposals for reform at every stage of this process. It has debated them at length in both Houses. It has even released some detail about the associated risks and what it is doing to address these in impact assessments. Therefore, I firmly believe that the Committee has all the information that it needs to discuss the proposals in detail.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Elton]

My Lords, I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, will remember those words when she is considering her next intervention on this matter. Bear in mind that what she says then will be taken as the yardstick of what any Government of her colour are expected to do when they eventually—one hopes at a great distance of time—take our place.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, I understand there is a precedent—a Department of Transport one. Therefore, there is a discretion and the Government are in a position on this occasion and not on a further one. I do not really see that that case is relevant.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Butler, whose understanding of these matters is one that noble Lords will respect greatly. He is absolutely right—this is not an issue that solely affects the Department of Health: it affects all government departments. That is why the stance taken by the BMA to this Bill was not material in our decision. We regret that stance but it did not come into our thinking in any way.

On the question of precedent, I am aware that during the course of the last Government three separate recent requests were made to the Department of Health to release risk registers. All three requests were declined. I have the letter here that was sent when the right honourable Andy Burnham was Secretary of State, citing exactly the same kinds of reasons I have given.

I was asked how long the appeal would take. I do not know but my understanding is that the process should come to a conclusion reasonably early in the new year. I cannot be more definite than that because it is not up to us—it will be up to the tribunal to order its business as it sees fit. Will the Government accept the result? Clearly, we will have to take a view whatever the result; I cannot pre-empt the decision today. My noble friend Lady Williams asked whether we had considered releasing a redacted version—the decision before us was whether to comply with the Information Commissioner’s decision in full, or not to and appeal. We did not have the option of redaction but I am grateful to my noble friend for her suggestion, which I will take away and consider.