Israel and Gaza

Debate between Lord Campbell of Pittenweem and Lord True

Monday 23rd October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

I agree with a great deal that my noble friend said, and I echo his words about the support that has come from all communities and across parties. There will be difficult and sad times, and Israel has the right to defend itself. We need to cherish not only the Jewish community but the Muslim community, because I believe that so many Muslims—my daughter-in-law is one—will recoil with horror and outrage at the thought of people crying “God is great” while they are butchering babies.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, in response to a question, the Minister referred to UNRWA, but is he aware of Medical Aid for Palestinians, a charity operating in the region? Have the Government made any contact with it in order to enlist, as part of the government position, its assistance as well?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I do not have an answer to that specific question. A voice in my ear says that we are talking to all NGOs, but I will confirm the situation in that respect and must write to the noble Lord.

Security Update

Debate between Lord Campbell of Pittenweem and Lord True

Monday 11th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister will have an opportunity to discuss the G20 Statement tomorrow, when I fear that your Lordships will suffer the pain of me answering again from this Dispatch Box. Perhaps I can then say a little more, if asked, about the engagement with Premier Li. However, I assure the House that the Prime Minister has certainly addressed the substance of Chinese activity and China’s efforts to undermine our democratic procedures so far as they are concerned.

On the question of the Official Secrets Act and the National Security Act, I would not wish to relate those to the ongoing investigation and was not seeking to do so. Obviously, I referred to the National Security Act, as did the director-general of MI5, as a further building block in the tools we have. That was in response to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Newby. So far as the current investigation is concerned, the Met has said that due to the active and ongoing nature of the investigation, it will not provide further details at this stage. It would not be right for me to comment on these reports. A statement was put out by the Metropolitan Police; I refer noble Lords to that statement.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, I begin by declaring that I was previously a member of the Intelligence and Security Committee, although that is not a reason for urging the Minister to re-read the report, since it contains a lot of conclusions that are entirely relevant to our discussion this evening.

I direct his attention to paragraph 7, which carries the description “whole-of-state threat”. The committee concludes that the Government’s policy has enabled China

“to advance its commercial, science and technology, and industrial goals in order to gain a strategic advantage”.

Given what we know of China’s tactics, why are we so surprised that there are now allegations of spying? Indeed, there would be surprise had there been no such allegation, given China’s previous record. Respectfully, it seems that the Government should be not only responding to the contents of the Intelligence and Security Committee’s report but implementing the various opportunities it identifies for putting a proper control over the activities of China against the United Kingdom. It is not a matter of “as soon as we can”; it should be a matter for immediate implementation.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the committee’s report is obviously of great significance and importance, and the Government regard it in that way. I have nothing to add to what I have said about hoping that the government response will come very shortly. Some people suspect that I am part of the usual channels. but I am not going to say from this Dispatch Box whether there will be a debate on this subject. However, at some point Parliament will require that we have a chance to take stock.

The only thing I would say—this is a statement of fact rather than a political point—is that if one goes back to the coalition years, when we shared time in government, the rhetoric was very different. Some of the facts on the ground were different. The nature of the Chinese regime has evolved since those times and the nature of our response is evolving. It is often easy to be wise after the event, but as my right honourable friend said in the Statement, we are very open-eyed about this and clearly recognise the nature, scale and uniqueness of the position of China, led by the Chinese Communist Party, with its ambitions, not all of them potentially pacific. We recognise that reality in the modern world and I hope that Parliament and the country as a whole will rise to that. Certainly, the Government will play their part.

NATO Summit

Debate between Lord Campbell of Pittenweem and Lord True

Tuesday 18th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

I understand the passion with which my noble friend, with his distinguished and courageous record of service to our country, makes his points. The defence paper published today sets out the rationale for the balance in forces in terms of numbers and capabilities. Effective war fighting units must have the best possible modern equipment. The Government announced a significant uplift of an extra £5 billion over the next two years, which will immediately increase our defence budget to around 2.25% of GDP, and we are on the way to delivering our new ambition of 2.5%.

We contribute to every NATO mission and operation; we offer the full spectrum of capabilities to the alliance; we will apportion almost all of our Armed Forces to NATO as part of the new NATO force model in 2024-25; we contribute more troops than any other ally to NATO’s enhanced forward presence, with 900 troops deployed in Estonia and a further 150 in Poland, all at high readiness; and we will be the frame- work nation for the land component of a new allied reaction force.

None the less, I hear what my noble friend says. The Government are determined to have an effective and capable Army, and we will continue to work for that end.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, I begin by declaring my interest as a member of the British delegation to the NATO Parliamentary Assembly, where, I have no doubt, many of the issues that have been ventilated this evening will be further discussed.

If I had to choose what I regarded as the two most significant things as a result of Vilnius, I would be driven to accept that these were the accession of Sweden and what looks like—I put it no more strongly than that—an end to the intransigence of Turkey. These are very good harbingers of the extent to which NATO remains the bulwark of not only our defence but the defence of the free world. For that reason, the addition of Finland and, in due course, Sweden is more than welcome, not least because they will make a positive contribution to the overall position of the whole membership of the alliance.

The other point I am particularly pleased about is the joint declaration of support for Ukraine. There was much speculation before, during and after in relation to membership of NATO and the extent to which that should be accelerated or, indeed, even granted in the course of the Vilnius discussions. We should never forget that Georgia was made the same undertaking. In all these discussions, no one ever talks about the consequences of the implementation of that undertaking given the fact of very considerable Russian influence in Georgia.

I want to make a point that is not always made in relation to membership of NATO: it is not just about military capability. Membership of NATO involves an acceptance of democratic principles, an acknowledgement of human rights and an absence of corruption. Any country that seeks to join NATO and become part of the arrangement, in particular under Article 5, is obliged to demonstrate these principles. In the best possible analysis of the current position, which we must make, it could hardly be said that these matters were well and truly at the centre of Ukraine.

The Leader of the House was sceptical about the use of language, or criticism of the use of language. I make this point: the Statement reads a bit like Dr Pangloss. I think the effectiveness of the Statement on these issues would be much enhanced if it were in much more down-to-earth language.

Finally, I am being advised that I must ask a question, and I am about to do so: how can it be said—as the Statement says—that there has been an increase in defence expenditure when, while more money has been given to the budget of the Ministry of Defence, there has been no increase in defence expenditure? What money has been given does not to any extent deal with the issue of inflation. Everyone knows that inflation when it comes to, for example, the purchase of military equipment is always much greater than elsewhere. Respectfully, returning to the point I made a moment or two, it seems to me that a bit more realism would carry more credibility.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I try not to use gung ho language. If I was guilty of that, I apologise; it is not really my wont. I was simply trying to give the House factual answers to some of the questions that were asked. I appreciate what the noble Lord says about accession and the role of both Sweden and Turkey, if Sweden becomes a member. Both Sweden and Turkey are, in security terms, extraordinarily important and proud nations, and we should look on them warmly. It would be good to see that any difficulties between those nations, such as they exist, do not continue, and that is the augury of the NATO summit.

As for guarantees, I said in a previous answer that all agreed that Ukraine’s future is in NATO and the proposal for a membership action plan was dispensed with. However, the alliance will continue its support for Ukraine in making progress on interoperability in weapons terms, but also, as the noble Lord implied, additional democratic and security sector reforms, on its path towards future membership. We will be in a position to extend an invitation to Ukraine to join the alliance when allies agree and due conditions are met. I am confident that that will happen.

On the security position, as I said in answer to an earlier question, we fully support Ukraine’s inherent right to self-defence—that is common in this House—as enshrined in Article 51 of the UN charter. There has been a broad international swathe of support for the heroic battle of the Ukrainian people against a grotesque breach of international law in this invasion. What happened at the summit is that the United Kingdom, G7 allies and Ukraine agreed a new framework for guaranteeing Ukraine’s long-term security, delivering on an ambition that we set out earlier this year. The joint declaration, signed by all members of the G7, set out how the United Kingdom and its allies will support Ukraine over the coming years to end the war and deter and respond to any future attack. It is the first time that the G7 has agreed to a comprehensive long-term security arrangement of this kind with another country. That is a specific of the commitment that is given—we are not talking about the wider ambit that the noble Lord spoke of, but it is important none the less.

As for support, I will not weary the House with the range of support that is being given, but suffice to say that the Ukrainian Government have made very clear their gratitude to the British people—and indeed the British Government, if I may mention that benighted authority in your Lordships’ House—for the unswerving support we have given in matériel, diplomatic efforts and support. That will continue and, as I said earlier, we are beginning the next step forward: this summer we will commence an elementary flying phase for cohorts of Ukrainian pilots in basic training.

G7 Summit

Debate between Lord Campbell of Pittenweem and Lord True

Wednesday 24th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

I strongly agree with my noble friend. Indeed, I pay the most fulsome tribute to the Japanese Prime Minister for the conduct of the G7 discussions. To repeat what I said, the depth of the agreements between the UK and Japan is reflected in the historic Hiroshima accord—the new agreements on defence, trade, investment, science and technology collaboration, and tackling global issues such as climate change. These are hugely important. There is the new UK-Japanese defence co-operation; the new cyber partnership; a set of science and technology programmes we will work on together; the semiconductors partnership that my noble friend mentioned; and a renewable energy partnership, which I think should delight the noble Lord, Lord Newby, aimed at accelerating the deployment of clean energy in the UK, Japan and third countries. It was extremely positive. The Prime Minister has reflected the warmth of the feeling that he has towards Japan; I think he felt that was strongly reciprocated by the G7 hosts, and we are very grateful for that.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, I know a little about the background to the murder of Lee Rigby. It was a particularly cowardly event, taking down a well-versed and popular servant of the military of the United Kingdom.

The other point I make by way of a preliminary is that I personally support, as indeed we all do on these Benches, the Government’s position on Ukraine. Significant consequences are arising out of that military engagement and, although this is perhaps not the time to discuss them, the United Kingdom’s support for Ukraine is absolutely fundamental.

Sometimes, reports of such things as the G7 repay rather closer attention to detail. At page 3 of 10 in the print I have, it says:

“Russia’s military is failing on the battlefield”.


Would it not be prudent to wait until we see the outcome of the spring offensive of the Ukraine Government before reaching a conclusion of that kind? Further, on page 7 of the print I have, it is indeed welcome that there is £18 billion of new investment into the United Kingdom from Japanese businesses. Can the Minister say what financial support the United Kingdom has offered and how much? Because it is being suggested that there were very substantial financial inducements.

Finally, on the question of the carrier strike group returning to the Indo-Pacific once more, the last report about one of the carriers that I have been able to find states that on 13 February, HMS “Queen Elizabeth” set sail for a month’s training but without any aircraft. That, of course, reflects the fact that we do not have sufficient F35 aircraft to allow the training of those pilots who are scheduled to fly them. So perhaps a little more candour would have made the Statement rather more credible.

Northern Ireland Protocol

Debate between Lord Campbell of Pittenweem and Lord True

Tuesday 28th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My noble friend is right. There are certainly advantages which this framework enables to continue in north-south access and north-south trade. However, I repeat that there is the corollary, which was neglected and which the UK and the EU have addressed in this agreement, of obstruction to east-west trade. I agree on the institutions, but I stick by what I said at first. I am not going to put anybody in a box. It is reasonable that all those who have suffered and considered and laboured in very difficult years across many decades—indeed, I go back to the time when my noble friend was a Minister—reflect and examine the documents before us.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome the Statement. However, we should pause and remind ourselves that there were two parties in this negotiation. Justifiably, the House has already been generous to the Government. We should show similar generosity to the European Union, without whose concessions this agreement would not have been reached.

[Lord True (Con)]

I believe that I had sought to do that, my Lords.

Constitutional Reform

Debate between Lord Campbell of Pittenweem and Lord True

Monday 21st March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have for constitutional reform.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, the Dissolution and Calling of Parliament Bill, the Judicial Review and Courts Bill and the Elections Bill are in the advanced stages of their passage through Parliament. The Government have consulted on proposals to overhaul the Human Rights Act and replace it with a Bill of Rights. The Government also remain focused on working with devolved Administrations to make sure our system of devolution works effectively for all citizens.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

I thank the Minister for that response, but may we take it from the absence of any reference to a presidential system that the suggestion made on 22 January by Mr Rees-Mogg on the “Newsnight” programme will not now be pursued? If so, does the Minister understand that that will come as a great relief since given the verbal damage caused by the Prime Minister over the weekend, think just how much he would cause were he the President.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I think I answered on the first point a few weeks ago in the House. We do not have a presidential system in this country—thank God. We have a constitutional monarchy and our present monarch.

Ministerial Code

Debate between Lord Campbell of Pittenweem and Lord True

Tuesday 9th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I do not comment on the other place, but I refer noble Lords to the observations made by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster at the outset of the debate in the other place yesterday.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem]

My Lords, the Speaker in the other House invited the Members to speak softly. The Prime Minister took that literally, because he was 400 metres away—

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

I beg noble Lords’ pardon; I have moved rather too quickly away from imperial measures.

The Prime Minister certainly did not contribute—he spoke softly. The issue is not one of changing the code. Is not the real problem getting the Prime Minister to implement it?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I have explained the constitutional position. So far as the Prime Minister’s movements are concerned, I am thankfully not responsible for them, but he was on a prearranged official visit to the north-east. My right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, who heads up the Cabinet Office and is responsible for this, led in the parliamentary debate. The Speaker was informed that both my right honourable friend and the leader of the Scottish nationalists would be unable to attend.

Union Capability: Dunlop Review

Debate between Lord Campbell of Pittenweem and Lord True

Thursday 19th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I have underlined the importance of the issues and said that the Government gave a Written Ministerial Statement recently about relations and transparency. The Government are determined to carry this work forward, so far as the UKIM Bill is concerned. I do not agree with the characterisation of it, and the Government will reintroduce Part 5 in the House of Commons.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

Does the Minister understand the extent of the damage caused by the recent remarks of the Prime Minister, underlined by the sophistry of his subsequent attempt at explanation? He will be familiar with the old dictum that careless talk costs lives. In this case, careless talk costs votes.

Home Secretary: Allegations of Bullying

Debate between Lord Campbell of Pittenweem and Lord True

Monday 2nd November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I refer again to what the Cabinet Secretary said about the process. On bullying, I underline again what I said earlier. The Civil Service helps those who wish to make complaints. In 2019, we ran a cross-departmental “speak up” campaign to encourage individuals to come forward and report poor behaviours. A further campaign is proposed for this year.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, is not the irresistible inference both from the delay and from the answers that the Minister has given that the Government have something to hide? What is it?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I can resist the inference.

Intelligence and Security Committee: Russia Report

Debate between Lord Campbell of Pittenweem and Lord True

Wednesday 22nd July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

My Lords, the Government have given a very full response to the inquiry. In the short time available, I cannot add further to the details of that response. As for the noble Lord’s question, it is the work of the intelligence and security agencies to assess any new evidence as it emerges; that is a continuing process. Given this long-standing approach, it is not necessary to hold a specific retrospective inquiry. If there were evidence available to be found, it would emerge through our existing processes.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD) [V]]

My Lords, as a result of the report, is it not the case that the Minister and the Government are compelled to accept that the Government have been negligent of their responsibility to guard the democratic values of this country, that they delayed the publication of the report with fake news excuses so that it did not feature in the general election, and that the failure to allow a full-scale inquiry into Russian meddling will make it seem that the Government have something to hide?

[Lord True]

My Lords, I have said before that I do not accept the noble Lord opposite’s narrative about delay. The intelligence committee has been reformed in this Parliament; it has published the report and the Government have responded to it in detail at the first possible opportunity.

Intelligence and Security Committee: Russia Report

Debate between Lord Campbell of Pittenweem and Lord True

Thursday 9th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government acknowledge the continued interest in the publication of the Intelligence and Security Committee’s Russia report. This report is the independent ISC’s property and it is not for the Government to publish. We have received nominations from all relevant parties and are in the process of constituting the committee.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD) [V]]

My Lords, despite that Panglossian reply, is it not abundantly clear that the Government deliberately and improperly suppressed the publication of the report to avoid embarrassment in last year’s general election? Why, six months after that election, have the Government irresponsibly failed to appoint a new intelligence committee which could publish the report? This is a shabby episode, increasingly typical of No. 10 Downing Street.

[Lord True]

My Lords, the noble Lord’s statement was certainly not Panglossian, but it was very wide of the mark. An announcement on membership will be made very shortly, and a Motion will be tabled for agreement by both Houses next week. The noble Lord’s wild charges against the Prime Minister are wholly unfounded.

House of Lords: Membership

Debate between Lord Campbell of Pittenweem and Lord True

Tuesday 5th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

My Lords, I agree that transparency is vital in public affairs. I am not responsible for usual channels. I would be a wealthy man if I had a pound for every unattributable briefing that was knocked down under the last Labour Government. I have repudiated this story and the alleged proposals on behalf of the Government in Parliament, and there it should rest.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

It cannot really rest, of course, because this is only one of a series of unattributed weekend briefings from No. 10. Although the finger cannot be pointed definitely at someone, most of us have a pretty good idea where the briefings are coming from. Frankly, it is not acceptable; it should be stopped, and the Prime Minister should stop it. On refreshing the House, what the Minister said is of course true, but it is generally accepted that some 40 names are already waiting to be introduced to the House. That goes far beyond “refreshing”, and drives a horse and cart through the Burns proposals, which the House unanimously accepted.

[Lord True]

My Lords, I think this is going wide of the Question, though the noble Lord might wish to reflect on the large number of Peers on his own Benches who were brought in under the previous two Administrations. I shall not enter into conspiracy theories; the House should concentrate on fact and work. I have stated on the record that this is not, and has not been, government policy.

European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 6) Bill

Debate between Lord Campbell of Pittenweem and Lord True

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 6th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

My Lords, I absolutely do. There is no purpose in this House if it is not to enable at some point the rights of the people to be sustained. Indeed, the one deliberate and absolute power of this House is that it can prevent the House of Commons extending itself indefinitely. We can require a general election after five years; we cannot in this case. That is an absolute power of this House under legislation. I am making a submission to and through this House to all the parties, and to people on both sides who support them, that this matter should be decided by a general election, not by House of Cards shenanigans on one side or the other—if you ask me, both sides are as bad as each other—as they try to do chess moves one against the other. I totally agree with what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Jones: it is doing nothing to advance the credibility of politics.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord for giving way, because I am examining his amendment, the last phrase of which is,

“following the first general election to take place in 2019”.

If no such general election takes place, what is the effect of his amendment?

[Lord True]

The effect of the amendment is that the Act will not come into place until a general election has taken place. I have been advised by—

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem]

Forgive me if I did not make myself sufficiently clear. If there is no general election in 2019, how can the amendment have any statutory effect?