Post Office: Horizon Compensation

Debate between Lord Callanan and Lord Polak

Thursday 30th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As my noble friend knows, I have considerable sympathy with his points, which, on the face of it, seem obvious. But we need to wait for the inquiry to positively establish the facts and lay them out in stark detail before considering what further steps to take.

[Lord Polak (Con)]

My Lords, I had the honour of entering this House at the same time as my noble friend Lord Arbuthnot. We have been friends for many years, and I too congratulate him on his tenacity and effectiveness; it has been outstanding, and many people around the country are grateful to him. I was intrigued by what the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, said about the Welsh pub. I have consistently tried to personalise this by mentioning my friend Rita Threlfall on every occasion, because this is about individuals and their families; it is not about the figure of 555, which almost means nothing. I entirely agree that no amount of money can restore their dignity. I also entirely agree that my noble friend and Minister Scully have done their best, but it is not enough. I was going to finish by saying what has just been said: I do not understand why Fujitsu is not paying for this. Can the Minister explain why it is not financially responsible for this and why the taxpayer is paying, as was said?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Again, I have considerable sympathy for the points that my noble friend makes, but, so far, Fujitsu has not been found guilty of any fraud or other crime related to this matter. It is co-operating in full with the inquiry, as we would expect of it. I realise that this is uncomfortable for the House, but we should wait for the results of the inquiry to set out in stark detail exactly where the failings were.

Post Office: Horizon Compensation

Debate between Lord Callanan and Lord Polak

Monday 10th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I can speak for my colleague Paul Scully, the postal affairs Minister, that we want to see this settled as quickly as possible in order, as the noble Lord said, to draw a line under it for the benefit of those people who were so badly affected. Of course, we are in the hands of the courts initially for the convictions to be overturned, but as soon as they are—if that is the judgment that the courts come to—we want to use the ADR process to try to get compensation offers to these people as quickly as possible.

[Lord Polak (Con)]

My Lords, I have raised the plight of my friend Rita Threlfall on a number of occasions. She is one of the 555 sub-postmasters and mistresses who initiated the group litigation. They won, and were awarded £57 million. However, £46 million went on costs and funding the action—action that helped lead to today’s situation. They were thanked by the Government, but their compensation was woefully inadequate. Will the Minister ensure that the 554 plus Rita are properly compensated? At the moment, their feeling is not of compensation but of discrimination.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I totally understand the point that my noble friend is making; we have spoken about it on a number of times in the past. The problem, of course, is that this compensation settlement that was reached in a civil action was in full and final settlement of the claims. However, having said that, my colleague Paul Scully has met with them many times and has said that we are in active discussions with them to see what more could be done. Indeed, officials are meeting this week with lawyers representing them to discuss it.

Post Office Update

Debate between Lord Callanan and Lord Polak

Monday 24th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am not trying to pass the buck to anybody; I have accepted all the responsibility that falls on my department and on Ministers present and previous. The inquiry will draw all these facts out in due course. I say to noble Lords that it is for the Post Office to continue with this process. The Government will accept their share of responsibility when it comes to that, but we need the Post Office to get on with it and we want it to do so as soon as possible.

[Lord Polak (Con)]

My Lords, over the weekend I checked in with my friend Rita Threlfall, one of the 555 claimants who brought the successful action against the Post Office in 2019 but received scant compensation. She is rightly concerned that some victims are being treated differently from others. Does my noble friend the Minister agree that we should be insisting on fairness and equity for all those wronged in this appalling injustice? Can he assure me that everything will be done to create a level playing field for all those who suffered? There is a danger that the Post Office will be responsible for a system where there is a first class and a second class. How can my noble friend the Minister ensure that this applies only to its stamps and not to its people?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As I have said to other noble Lords, we are discussing the next steps with the Post Office. I agree with my noble friend that that needs to include the best process for ensuring that fair and swift compensation is provided to those sub-postmasters whose convictions were quashed, but it is for the Post Office to decide on the next steps.

Post Office: Horizon Accounting System

Debate between Lord Callanan and Lord Polak

Monday 7th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Of course, there was an agreed settlement for the sub-postmasters who took legal action. It would not be right for the Government to interfere in that settlement.

[Lord Polak (Con)]

As is clear for the individuals and families caught up in the Horizon disaster, life continues to be unbearable. I ask my noble friend the Minister to help me answer my friend Rita Threlfall, the former sub-postmistress from Liverpool, whose story I highlighted in this House on 18 June. She said this weekend: “We seek reasonable justice, and it is still our aim to have a judicial inquiry, as we all feel it is the only way to uncover the truth behind the reason we have suffered financial loss through no fault of our own. But more importantly, it will help us in some way to mend our broken lives.”

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The lady that my noble friend mentions is one of many tragic cases arising from this. It is indeed an appalling scandal. Of course, there has already been a judicial finding of faults in this, and the comments of Mr Justice Fraser are well worth reviewing. We want to go further than that: we want a proper review, and to be fully assured that through the review there is a public summary of the failings that occurred at the Post Office through this scandal—drawing on the judgments from the Horizon case and by listening to those most affected—without repeating the findings of Mr Justice Fraser.

Post Office: Horizon Accounting System

Debate between Lord Callanan and Lord Polak

Thursday 18th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I do agree with the noble Baroness that they deserve justice. Nothing that we can do will be able to put back together some of the lives that have been shattered and broken by this terrible scandal but I honestly believe that the best way of securing justice is through the judicial process, which is ongoing and which I cannot pre-empt. That process will run its course but then there is additional work to do; we think the best, swiftest and fastest way of doing that is through an independent review.

[Lord Polak (Con)]

Following on from the noble Baroness, Lady Burt, earlier this week I spoke to the lovely Rita Threlfall, who was a sub-postmistress in Liverpool from 1998 to 2010. One of six children, Rita told me how she was brought up with three guiding principles: education, hard work and honesty. Can your Lordships imagine the devastation following the Horizon-created £35,000 shortfall, when Rita was suspended and charged with theft and false accounting? She was left a mental and physical wreck. She said, “Since my dismissal, my health declined. I depend on a wheelchair, seldom leave the home, suffer with extreme anxiety. I lost my income, my health, my sanity and I am now bankrupt.” I plead with my noble friend the Minister, for the sake of Rita and so many others, to ensure that the Government set up a judge-led inquiry and remove the previous chief executive from her position as chairman of Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust.

[Lord Callanan]

I thank my noble friend for drawing attention to one of the many tragic cases that have resulted from this; there are many others like it and I too have heard some terrible tales. We believe that an independent review is the best way of getting to the bottom of it. This will have essentially similar terms of reference to a judge-led public inquiry. With regard to the former chief executive, it would be very helpful if she would account much more fully in public for what she knew and for the actions that she took at the time. I have written to the Department of Health to make clear our position on her future. The Care Quality Commission is, I believe, looking at whether she is a fit and proper person for the role that she holds. I hope that it will conduct that review swiftly. Obviously, I cannot predict that, and it is not a matter directly for me, but I have written to the Department of Health to make my views clear.

Sub-postmasters: Compensation

Debate between Lord Callanan and Lord Polak

Thursday 5th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I hope that we can get the matter resolved as quickly as possible. The work of the CCRC is important and the Government cannot interfere in it. I understand that decisions on this issue are expected fairly soon and will then have to go back to the Court of Appeal. I think we all wish that the judicial process could be speedier at times but we have to let these matters take their course. However, I take on board my noble friend’s concerns.

[Lord Polak (Con)]

My Lords, in a previous discussion on this issue, I asked the Minister about the role of the Government’s non-executive director on the board of the Post Office. In reply, he said:

“His role has evolved from a perhaps more passive approach to a much more active one going forward.”—[Official Report, 4/2/20; col. 1711.]


Can my noble friend tell us what this new active approach of the Government’s non-executive director is?

[Lord Callanan]

My noble friend makes an important point. As I said in response to an earlier question, we are looking at the framework of the decisions. This is not just about the role of the non-executive director; it is about the whole oversight of the organisation by BEIS—how we improve the governance and monitoring of what is, in effect, an independent company. Operational decisions are a matter for the board of the Post Office, but clearly the fact that I am standing here in front of your Lordships answering questions now shows that it is a company owned 100% by the Government. Lessons need to be learned and we need to get to the bottom of this. I have spoken personally to the new chief executive of the Post Office, as have other ministerial colleagues, and we are satisfied that he now has a grip on the situation. The accounting system has been improved and the board is co-operating fully with the work of the Criminal Cases Review Commission, as indeed it should.