Northern Ireland Executive Formation

Debate between Lord Caine and Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown

Thursday 1st February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My noble friend will be aware that the statutory instrument, which we will have the opportunity to debate at length, reaffirms the supremacy of UK law, including the Acts of Union, in respect of Northern Ireland. On the trade issue, the aim of the second statutory instrument is to future-proof Northern Ireland’s position within the UK internal market. Of course, no Parliament can bind its successors, but the statutory instrument would ensure that any changes would require changes in law.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, it is a fact that in any agreement the devil will be in the detail; therefore, can we have clarification? Does Northern Ireland remain under EU single market laws for production of food and agri-food? Do His Majesty’s Government believe that the Irish Sea border has fundamentally been changed? Is there a fundamental change to the Windsor Framework or is it still operational, and will Northern Ireland be able to enjoy UK state aid like every other part of the United Kingdom, without reference to the EU?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

The Government are absolutely confident that this deal will guarantee the smooth flow of goods throughout the United Kingdom. That is not just the opinion of the Government but of the noble Lord’s party leader, on which basis he has advised his party to go back into the Northern Ireland Executive. We will have a chance to debate these points more fully, in the interests of other speakers. I am sure we will come back to them during the debate.

Northern Ireland: Industrial Action

Debate between Lord Caine and Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown

Wednesday 17th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of planned industrial action in Northern Ireland, and what plans they have made to release funding for public sector pay awards.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government will continue to work closely with the Northern Ireland Civil Service, which is leading the response to the widespread action. Tomorrow’s strike will be disruptive for people across Northern Ireland, and we know this is an extremely frustrating time for workers. While public sector pay is devolved, His Majesty’s Government have offered a generous package worth more than £3 billion that addresses public sector pay and would be available from day one to a restored Executive.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for his reply. Thousands of workers across Northern Ireland are striking tomorrow because, despite unprecedented levels of inflation and pay agreements to reduce the impact of inflation on their living standards, they are still waiting for pay increases to be awarded. The Government have accepted that the Northern Ireland budget should be increased to finance these awards, but the Secretary of State claims that they cannot be paid because the Northern Ireland Assembly is not sitting. This is not true. Between December 2022 and December 2023, 30 different decisions in relation to pay were taken by civil servants in Northern Ireland.

The issue is whether the Secretary of State will release the money to enable the payments to be made. He seems to prefer to use workers as pawns to put pressure on my party to accept the Windsor Framework and the Northern Ireland protocol. Our call to release the money is supported by the unions, the head of the Civil Service and all political parties in Northern Ireland. Therefore, will the Minister inform the Secretary of State that he must stop using workers and their well- earned pay increases as pawns in his game of political brinkmanship and realise that bribery and bullying will not force unionists into accepting constitutional arrangements that will destroy the union in the long run by aligning Northern Ireland with the European Union instead of the United Kingdom?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his many questions. In respect of the cost of living, I remind him that this Government have delivered on their pledge to halve inflation, and from the beginning of this year have cut taxes to ease pressures on household incomes.

The noble Lord will be aware that the Government do not have the powers directly to negotiate public sector pay in Northern Ireland. This is a devolved matter for a Northern Ireland Executive. The package to which I referred a few moments ago remains on the table for an incoming Executive. Of the £3.3 billion, somewhere in the region of £580 million is earmarked for relieving pressures on the public sector. So far as the Windsor Framework is concerned, he will not be surprised to hear that I do not share his characterisation. I believe the Windsor Framework is the right basis for reforming the Executive and having the devolved institutions back up and running in Northern Ireland, delivering for the entire community.

Relationships and Sexuality Education (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2023

Debate between Lord Caine and Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown

Wednesday 28th June 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

Can I ask the Minister for some clarification? What debate on paragraph 86(d) was held in the other place? Was there a debate?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

The amendment to the executive formation Act, as it became, was put down by Stella Creasy MP in the other place, debated and passed by a resounding majority.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

I am talking not about abortion but about education.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Caine (Con)]

It placed a statutory duty on the Secretary of State to introduce CEDAW-compliant regulations in respect of both abortion services and relationships and sexual education.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

For clarification, was education mentioned in the debate?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I do not have the Hansard from June or July 2019 in front of me but the amendment was very clear in the obligations that it placed on the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to introduce CEDAW-compliant regulations, which are now enshrined in statute.

I was about to go on to the major themes of the debate, which is why the laying of the regulations was not preceded by a public consultation—a criticism made by many noble Lords this afternoon and contained in the report of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. A number of factors led the Northern Ireland Office to the conclusion that a public consultation was not required in this instance. First, the CEDAW recommendation—I repeat: under the executive formation Act, the Secretary of State has a duty to implement it—is clear that it requires topics such as abortion and contraception to be compulsory components of the curriculum. That is what these regulations will introduce; no amount of public consultation will change the statutory requirement to comply with CEDAW.

While we are on that, the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, asked me about the number of stakeholders that the Northern Ireland Office had discussed. I will just read out one or two of the organisations. There was Love for Life, Common Use, Amnesty, the National Society for the Protection of Young People, the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland, the Alliance for Choice and Parentkind.

Secondly, my department conducted an equality assessment under Section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, in consultation with the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland, and concluded that there was no need for the NIO to consult publicly as it is actually for the Department for Education to issue the guidance on how these issues are taught in schools and for monitoring and collecting any equality data.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

If the noble Baroness will forgive me, I shall address that issue in a second or two.

Thirdly, we were also informed by the Department of Education in a briefing paper that significant stakeholder consultation haud taken place on the RSE Progression Framework that it has been developing with the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment over a number of years. This is the document that will be updated and used as guidance issued by the department.

Although the current law and circumstances dictate that it falls to the Northern Ireland Office that CEDAW-compliant RSE is a compulsory part of the curriculum, it is rightly for the Department of Education in Northern Ireland to take that requirement forward. In that context, I can inform noble Lords that the Department of Education has now assured us that it aims to launch a public consultation on both the guidance and the opt-out scheme at the beginning of the 2023-24 academic year—that is, in September—to meet the duty to issue guidance by 1 January 2024.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

In reference to consultation, the court noted that

“the consultation which did take place in the context of the Regulations was limited to the issue of abortion but did not deal specifically with the issue of education on sexual and reproductive health or a strategy to combat gender based stereotypes as set out in paras 86(d) and (f) of the CEDAW Report. However, these paras are not referred to in the 2020 Regulations nor are they contained in the 2021 Directions under challenge. In the event that Regulations or Directions are made in the future to deal with those issues then there will be an opportunity for the Secretary of State”—

not the Department of Education—

“to carry out a consultation”.

Why did he not do it?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his speech but I have addressed the Government’s position in respect of the public consultation.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

I read out the judgment of the court, not a speech from me.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am grateful for the noble Lord’s clarification. I set out the rationale behind the Government’s decision not to proceed with the public consultation in advance of the laying of these regulations. I am not sure whether he was listening to me but I made it very clear that the Department of Education in Northern Ireland will now take forward a public consultation on these matters at the start of the next academic year, in September, with a view to meeting the 1 January deadline. I do not think that I could be clearer in my comments on that.

In addition, the Department of Education also aims to make regulations for parents to withdraw their children from the required education by 1 January 2024, thus ensuring that there will be an option for parents to withdraw their children on issues such as abortion and contraception should they so wish. That deals directly with issues raised by, among others, the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Belmont.

The regulations are not intended to be overly prescriptive—

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

Even if parents—

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am sorry; I have been very generous to the noble Lord. He spoke for a long time earlier in the debate. I am conscious that other Grand Committee debates need to take place after this one so, if he will forgive me, out of respect for other colleagues —including my noble friend Lord Johnson, who is sitting patiently—I will continue.

The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, mentioned external providers. I can assure her that my officials are in constant contact with the department and will continue this engagement, although it is principally a matter for the Department of Education in Northern Ireland.

I hope that this gives some reassurance to a number of noble Lords that the views of the public will be properly taken into account before the final guidance is issued by 1 January 2024. I can confirm that that is very much the target for publication.

I will try to be as quick as I can. A number of noble Lords raised issues in relation to the rights of parents and the ECHR. We of course respect and recognise the rights afforded by Article 2 in the first protocol to the ECHR. We assess that the regulations have been drafted in accordance with convention rights. It is the Government’s firm view that it is compatible to inform children of the legal right to an abortion in Northern Ireland and how relevant services may be accessed without advocating a particular view on the moral and ethical considerations. Providing such information would not affect the ability of parents to provide advice and guidance to their children in keeping with their religious and philosophical views, which we all respect, and therefore we are, in our view, also compatible with Articles 9 and 10 of the ECHR.

Noble Lords referred to the slight differences between England and Wales and Northern Ireland throughout the debate. The statutory guidance in England references prevention of early pregnancy and abortion and, as such, is similar to what is required under CEDAW. We believe that the regulations are the most appropriate way of meeting our statutory obligations and what CEDAW requires, while keeping as closely aligned as possible with other parts of the UK.

The noble Lord, Lord Dodds of Duncairn, referred to the Explanatory Memorandum. He has the advantage of me, in that I do not have a copy in front of me. I will endeavour to provide greater explanation of the Explanatory Memorandum in due course. My understanding is that there will of course be an impact on the department because of the duty to provide guidance, but the exact nature of that impact will not be known until the guidance has been more fully developed and is published.

I have tried, in as brief a time as possible and with respect to colleagues who are coming after me, to deal with a number of points this afternoon. If there are any issues outstanding, I will of course write to any noble Lord who requires further clarification. On that note, I beg to move.

Omagh Bombing

Debate between Lord Caine and Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown

Thursday 9th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, for 14 and a half years in the other House, I represented the people of Omagh, and I visited the scene of carnage on the day that the bomb took place. Coming from a family with loved ones brutally murdered, I know the deep anguish and pain that these families have suffered over the years. Sadly, that pain will not go away. Can the Minister assure me that while the inquiry learns the lessons of any failures that may have taken place by security personnel, no focus will be taken from those who planted this bomb and carried out this despicable, murderous act, and therefore that every effort will continue to be made to bring those responsible to justice?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I fully acknowledge the comments of the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, and I am well aware that he has, sadly, during his political and ministerial career—ministerial in a religious sense—had to officiate at funerals and bury many loved ones over the years. On his specific question, as I indicated earlier, the people who are responsible for this vile atrocity are of course the terrorists who carried it out and nothing should detract whatever from that. I concur entirely with his comments in that regard.

Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland: Supreme Court Judgment

Debate between Lord Caine and Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown

Thursday 9th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I note that the former First Minister is a proud Anglican. While there have been modifications, I take on board the noble Baroness’s comments. As I said in answer to an earlier question, the Government’s intention is to ensure that Northern Ireland’s position within the UK internal market is fully respected, along with its constitutional position as part of the United Kingdom.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, a group of 18 year-olds from Northern Ireland visited Parliament yesterday. They told me that they were jealous of me because, for years, I had the opportunity to stand for election and to debate and make all the laws to which I was subject—an opportunity they will now be denied under the protocol, with laws being forced upon them over which they have no say. They told me that they felt like second-class citizens in the United Kingdom because of that. What does the Minister say to them?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

Clearly, we do not want anybody in any part of the United Kingdom to feel like a second-class citizen. As I set out in my comments on the Northern Ireland Budget Bill on Tuesday, dealing with issues around governance and the democratic deficit, to which the noble Lord referred, are extremely important, and they will have to form part of a final negotiated agreement with the EU.

Northern Ireland Elections

Debate between Lord Caine and Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown

Monday 14th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Viscount for his comments and his long-standing involvement and commitment. He makes some pertinent points about the Assembly and the need to get it back up and running. As I say, the Government’s clear position is that the current situation is not justified and it would be far better for all if the Assembly was functioning in the way intended. He refers to people coming together; in the context of approaching the 25th anniversary of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, this serves as a useful reminder of Northern Ireland’s huge potential, notwithstanding the current challenges we all face, to thrive and prosper when people work together on all sides.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, it is well known that the Secretary of State, beating his chest and saying, at one minute past midnight, that an election would be called, was endeavouring to blackmail the DUP into the Executive. It did not work. Make no mistake: the DUP is not afraid to go back to the electorate after honouring what was pledged in the previous election. It is interesting that the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, and the Alliance Party are suggesting a reform of the institutions because of the present stalemate. The Alliance Party did not say the same when Sinn Féin put the Assembly down for three years. Let us therefore have a little balance.

Can the Minister confirm whether, when the Secretary of State was discussing the internal affairs of Northern Ireland—the date of an election to the Assembly in Northern Ireland—he consulted the Foreign Minister of the Irish Republic? This would be in contravention of strand 1 of the Belfast agreement.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. He will not be surprised to hear that I would not characterise my right honourable friend the Secretary of State’s approach to this as attempting to blackmail any party in Northern Ireland. He was rightly setting out the legal position in which he found himself, at one minute past midnight on 28 October. As the noble Lord is aware, having consulted political opinion widely in Northern Ireland, the Secretary of State took the view that an election would not be the right course at this time—hence the extension and the legislation.

As far as the noble Lord’s other point is concerned, of course the Secretary of State has numerous discussions, but the important point is that strand 1 issues are—and remain—for the United Kingdom Government and the Northern Ireland parties. That is clear. We are always committed to the three-strand approach to Northern Ireland, including for the internal affairs of Northern Ireland, which are matters for the UK Government in discussion with Northern Ireland parties.

Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Caine and Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown

Committee stage
Wednesday 22nd June 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, once again we are dealing with an issue that was the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Assembly. Once again, the Government have taken it out of the hands of the Assembly. This has not just arrived since the last Assembly election; this was from before that. I remind some noble Lords that the history of this goes back to the previous three-year suspension of the Northern Ireland Assembly by Sinn Féin. Sinn Féin would not come back into the Assembly but made certain demands before it would come back in. One of the demands was on the abortion legislation; it wanted abortion on demand. The second was an Irish language Act. It has to be admitted that it did not get an Irish language Act, because this is the Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Bill, but nevertheless it was part of its demands.

The truth of the matter is that the Government yielded to the demands of Sinn Féin which is why we are having this debate here at Westminster. The new Assembly has certainly not been given the opportunity to debate it, because the Assembly election was just recently. With all the demands that are being made on public finances, I must say that, right across this legislation, I have deep concerns. When one bears in mind that people are fighting to pay their bills and all the demands on public finances at the present moment, I would certainly ask whether this is the best expenditure of public money at this particular time.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all those who have spoken to the first group of amendments before us. Before I turn to the detail of the amendments, I place on record my sorrow that the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, is not in her place today to move her amendments. I am sure that I speak for the entire Committee in wishing her a speedy recovery and quick return to your Lordships’ House.

I speak first to Amendments 1 and 3, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Goudie—with whom I had the pleasure of serving on the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland Sub-Committee for a number of months—for stepping in at a moment’s notice. In broad terms, these amendments seek to amend the Bill’s first clause so that the

“national and cultural identity principles”

provided for in new Section 78F inserted by that clause would respect the “rights of others” rather than taking

“account of … those with different national and cultural identities”,

as drafted in the Bill. Amendment 1 from the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, would make this change, with the second providing a definition of the “rights of others”.

Although I understand the intent behind this amendment, I believe that this would not correctly reflect the national and cultural identity principles that were a matter of careful negotiation between those parties that agreed to New Decade, New Approach, and which are set out in paragraph 25 of that document. They were also set out in the same terms in the accompanying draft legislation that went with New Decade, New Approach. The provision in this Bill therefore reflects the terms under which the parties agreed New Decade, New Approach and re-entered the Executive in January 2020. It has been our approach throughout to reflect in good faith that agreement from January 2020, and I believe that it would be inconsistent with that approach if we were unilaterally to deviate from those principles today.

Amendments 5 and 6 seek to extend the remit of the office of identity and cultural expression. Amendment 5 seeks to include the effective implementation of relevant international human right standards and Amendment 6 would make provision on a comprehensive language strategy to include all spoken and sign languages used in Northern Ireland. As with the national and cultural identity principles, the role and remit of the office of identity and cultural expression have been carefully set out through New Decade, New Approach. I fear that these amendments would represent a deviation from the basis of NDNA; the Government are clear that they will not do this.

As some reassurance, I highlight that new Section 78H(4) will enable the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, acting jointly, to direct the office of identity and cultural expression. They could use this power, for example, to give consideration to certain international standards that they deem relevant or to develop strategies, such as overall language strategies or those on sign language. Of course, they would need to fall within the framework of the principles themselves. In addition, the office itself could decide to consider international human rights standards in the advice and guidance that it provides. Of course, as a number of noble Lords have made clear, we would much prefer this to be taken forward not in your Lordships’ House but by a future Executive and Assembly.

Quickly on the ECHR and human rights, I assure the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, my noble friend Lord Deben and others that this Government remain absolutely committed to the Belfast agreement in all its parts. That includes the commitments on the ECHR. As for a Bill of Rights, the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, blamed his own Government as much as anyone for the lack of one. As I have always said, the agreement is somewhat ambiguously drafted as to how that should be taken forward, but the policy of successive Governments has been that it is primarily a matter for the Executive and the Assembly. New Decade, New Approach established a committee of the Assembly to look at how this issue might be taken forward.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

I listened very carefully to what the noble Lord had to say. When it comes to a spirit of generosity, it is with a spirit of generosity that the party I represent has been willing to go into and be part of an Executive in Northern Ireland with those who for years sought to murder us. I take no lectures bearing in mind that some of us who are gathered here are not supposed to be here as far as Sinn Féin/IRA is concerned because our family was to be wiped out completely in one last action of the IRA. Therefore, when it comes to generosity, it is very difficult to accept those in government. I am speaking personally on this. I found it very difficult to watch those who paraded on the roads of Ulster with terrorist weapons in their hands to destroy us every night. For 25 years, I sat in the back of an armoured police car, having to be guarded; my family were not allowed to travel with me. So when it comes to generosity, I suggest that the people I represent have been very generous.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Dodds of Duncairn for the way in which moved his amendment. The effect of this group of amendments would be to place the Secretary of State under a duty to assess ahead of commencement, and annually thereafter, the costs arising from the three bodies.

I genuinely appreciate the intent behind these amendments but it is, as my noble friend Lord Deben made clear in his comments, not a matter for UK Government Ministers to conduct annual assessments for public bodies for which they are not directly responsible. The three public authorities established by this Bill will be administered, supported and funded by the Executive Office and fall squarely under the devolved competence of the Northern Ireland Assembly.

My noble friend referred to the estimated costs of the bodies. That will be a matter for the Northern Ireland Executive and the Assembly, although my officials—I think this is in the Explanatory Notes—have estimated through comparison with similar bodies a figure in the range of around £9 million per annum for all three bodies to run. As my noble friend Lord Deben highlighted, expenditure from the Northern Ireland Consolidated Fund is for the Northern Ireland Assembly to scrutinise. That is why, in the case of all three authorities, specific provision is made for the Executive Office to lay a copy of the statement of accounts and the statement of the Comptroller and Auditor-General for Northern Ireland before the Assembly.

Although Parts 6 and 7, which we will come on to later, make provision for the Secretary of State to ensure the implementation of the provisions in this Bill if that is absolutely necessary, I again highlight that it is not the intention of either the Government or that part of the Bill to result in a situation in which the Secretary of State routinely involves himself in transferred matters.

These amendments would make the Secretary of State’s involvement in transferred matters of identity, language and culture a permanent feature. We would prefer those to remain considerations for Northern Ireland’s devolved institutions. For that reason, I urge my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.

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[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, accepting the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, I do not believe that there is only a perception of a difference; this legislation would actually make a difference between the two. NDNA did not give acceptance or credence to lack of parity of esteem; in actual fact, it was demanding that. It was not seeking to be used for discrimination against the unionist community; in actual fact, it was demanding that both communities in Northern Ireland were treated with that parity of esteem.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

Once again, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, for the way in which he moved his amendment. To comment briefly on the words of my noble friend Lord Empey, I think it was Duff Cooper whose memoirs were entitled Old Men Forget. I am sorry to disappoint my noble friend but even I have forgotten some of the details of the New Decade, New Approach negotiations that took place over those torturous three years between 2017 and 2020.

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, for tabling these amendments, which relate to extending the grounds upon which an individual can make a complaint to the process for the Ulster Scots commissioner. I have a number of concerns regarding the amendments; I will set them out briefly.

My first concern is that it would not be appropriate to amend one of the commissioner’s complaints procedures but not the other. The amendments in the name of the noble Lord would undermine the position reached in New Decade, New Approach that the commissioner should be able to investigate relevant complaints about a public authority’s lack of due regard to advice provided in respect of facilitating the use of Ulster Scots. That is why the Bill specifically refers to “published facilitation guidance”.

I highlight to noble Lords that, in preparing this legislation, the Government have provided the essential clarity on the complaints process for the commissioner so that it provides similar clarity and certainty to the complaints process provided for the Irish language commissioner. The role of the Ulster Scots/Ulster British commissioner and their work to provide advice and guidance will cover the same public authorities as the office of identity and cultural expression and the Irish language commissioner. The public will be able to make complaints to each commissioner in the same way.

On the parity of esteem point made by my noble friend Lord Empey and the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, as I said on an earlier group of amendments, the commissioners have been designed to meet the different needs of different parts of the community. They are different in function, and therefore there are certain disparities in their powers. Again, that was the position reached in New Decade, New Approach; the Government are faithfully trying to follow it.

I suspect that I have not reassured the noble Lord on this issue. He may wish to return to it but, for now, I would be grateful if he would withdraw his amendment.

The Future of the Northern Ireland Assembly

Debate between Lord Caine and Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown

Wednesday 30th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

In preparing for this question, I would never have anticipated in a million years that the noble Baroness would have raised the protocol. She is aware of the Government’s position on the protocol; as the Secretary of State said to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee last week, it is not sustainable in its present form, requiring very drastic and radical change, and the Government are working with the EU to try to bring that about. In the absence of agreement, she is aware that we will take whatever action is required to remedy the situation. Regarding interventions in devolved areas, I remind the noble Baroness that she was a member of a government who in 2000 intervened directly in a devolved matter: the Northern Ireland Executive could not agree on the flying of flags from public buildings, and the Labour Government legislated here.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, rather than interfering in sensitive matters devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly, does the Minister not accept that the Secretary of State would be better to use his efforts in removing the Northern Ireland protocol, thus protecting Northern Ireland’s constitutional position within the United Kingdom, because failure to do so will undermine the possibility of any Executive being restored?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

In respect of the constitutional position of Northern Ireland, the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, will be aware of my very strong unionist convictions and my strong personal support for Northern Ireland’s position as part of this United Kingdom. So far as the protocol is concerned, I think I have set out the Government’s position: we are committed to making the necessary changes to the protocol, which is unsustainable in its current form.

Northern Ireland

Debate between Lord Caine and Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown

Monday 7th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I assure the noble Baroness that the Government have been having discussions—not just with one party but with parties across the Northern Ireland Executive—in the run-up to the decision of the former First Minister last week and subsequently. She raises a very important point about the budget and, of course, one of the things that has bedevilled Northern Ireland in recent years has been the single-year budgets rather than the much longer three or four-year spending reviews that we are used to here. So far as the current situation is concerned, my understanding is that the Finance Minister can bring to the Assembly a budget for the next financial year, but she is absolutely right that it is not possible now to do a three-year budget, which would have to be a priority for an incoming Executive after the election.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, the Minister is surely aware that the Northern Ireland protocol is not consistent with the Belfast agreement, the principle of consent or Northern Ireland’s constitutional position within the United Kingdom. It does not have the support of one unionist party in Northern Ireland. The Government have been given ample warning of what was going to happen and now they must deal with the problem. I do not mean tinkering with the protocol—it has to go.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, raises a number of very important points, many of which are subject to a legal case currently before the Court of Appeal in Belfast, so it would not be appropriate for me to comment in detail on a number of his points. He referred to Northern Ireland’s position within the United Kingdom. Northern Ireland is very much a part of the United Kingdom, something which this Government strongly support and I personally passionately support.