Terrorism Act 2000 (Alterations to the Search Powers Code for Northern Ireland) Order 2024
Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent
Lord Caine (Con)
My Lords, I welcome the noble Baroness to what I think is her first Northern Ireland-related Grand Committee. I thank her for her kind words and thank noble Lords from the DUP for their kind words too. I also associate myself very strongly with her comments about the PSNI and the Armed Forces, and the commemorations that took place over the weekend. As Minister, I had the great honour of laying a wreath of behalf of His Majesty’s Government at Belfast City Hall in 2012 and Messines in 2023, where the Ireland Peace Park is located—very moving and poignant events they were too.
If the noble Baroness were to look at my Twitter account—or X, as it is called these days—from Saturday, she would see that I was proudly sporting a poppy that contained the cap badge of the Royal Ulster Constabulary. I have long maintained that, without the service and sacrifice of the RUC, the PSNI and our Armed Forces, there would have been no peace process in Northern Ireland. They created the conditions in which politics could work, and we owe them all a huge, enormous debt of gratitude.
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for concisely setting out the terms of this statutory instrument. I will be very brief because, as the noble Baroness made clear, the SI has its origins in changes to the Terrorism Act that were contained in the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022—a hugely long title for an Act of Parliament—which I well remember my colleagues debating at length when it was going through your Lordships’ House. The changes made to the Terrorism Act, as the noble Baroness set out, related to stop and search powers under Section 43C and required the publication of terms of reference under Section 47 for the exercise of those powers. The SI might, in some respects, be described almost as Conservative legacy legislation. The noble Baroness referred to the consultation that we conducted, which concluded earlier this year.
I can see nothing in the terms of reference that we would have done any differently, frankly, and they should therefore have our full support. Of course, as the noble Baroness made clear, they largely align Northern Ireland with the powers available to and codes of practice for police in other parts of the United Kingdom, to which no unionist could possibly take exception or object.
I have just one question for the Minister; I gave her prior notice of it yesterday. For the general benefit of the Committee, can she set out how the new powers sit alongside the powers that exist for the police, in the justice and security Act of 2007, relating to stop and search without reasonable suspicion? I signed a number of authorisations for the use of these powers, so I know how important they are for the police in the exercise of their functions. It would be helpful if the Minister could elucidate a little further how they sit alongside the powers contained in the Terrorism Act.
The fact that we are debating these matters today, with the contributions from the Minister and DUP Members, reminds us of the security backdrop in Northern Ireland. We have been reminded that the threat level is currently classed as “substantial”. It has been reduced from “severe”, to where it was raised after the murderous attack on DCI John Caldwell in February 2023, but it is worth reminding ourselves that the difference between “substantial” and “severe” is one word: “highly”. “Substantial” means that an attack is likely, while “severe” means that an attack is highly likely.
The ongoing threat from terrorism is real. As the Minister made clear at the beginning of her remarks, there remains in Northern Ireland a small group of people who have lethal intent and capability, and who wish to continue to pursue their political objectives by violence. It is essential, therefore, that the PSNI has all the necessary powers available to it in order to combat that ongoing terrorist threat.
I conclude by reiterating our heartfelt thanks for everything that the PSNI does in Northern Ireland and that the security services do. They do a superb job of keeping people safe and secure from terrorism in Northern Ireland and, in so doing, keeping us safe and secure throughout the whole of this United Kingdom. On which note, I strongly welcome the SI; it has our full support.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
I thank noble Lords for their contributions. As ever, they were thoughtful and considered and took us to the heart of the issue, especially in relation to our security and safety.
I wholeheartedly agree with noble Lords’ comments about the role of our security services in keeping us safe. These are people who run towards the fire in trying to protect others as they run away from it. We are always in their debt. This SI is one effort in ensuring that they have the right powers available to them, without us doing them a disservice and restricting their ability to operate. I assure noble Lords that that is where we are.
We talked about Remembrance Sunday. I reside in Staffordshire, where the National Memorial Arboretum is. One of the most beautiful parts of the arboretum is the area dedicated to those who served and fell during the Troubles, and those who continue to serve to keep us safe. I highly recommend a visit to noble Lords.
Let me respond specifically to the questions raised by noble Lords. I say in response to the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, that this instrument is not an effort to curtail policing in Northern Ireland. We are doing everything we can to ensure that everyone has the appropriate tools and resources available, which is why we increased the PSNI’s additional funding budget for security in last month’s Budget.
I have some specific responses so I ask noble Lords to bear with me. My civil servants have done what they are meant to do: make sure that I do not have to write.
The threshold for power and use has not changed or restricted the PSNI. This is a new power, brought in in 2022, to allow the search of an individual who is licensed—that is, someone who has already been arrested. They are included in a search condition so that they can continue to be monitored. As I will emphasise in response to the questions from the noble Lord, Lord Caine, this is a separate power. It is in addition to, not in replacement of, the existing powers under TACT and the justice and security Act, and it has been supported by the PSNI. We have not done this to the PSNI; we are doing it with the PSNI.
This new code of conduct will not change the way in which police searches are conducted. The code simply provides guidance to police officers in Northern Ireland on basic principles for the use and scope of the new Section 43C power.
With regard to the question from the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, on police numbers, decisions about the allocation of the Northern Ireland budget rest with the Northern Ireland Executive, as the noble Lord knows well. It is a matter for the PSNI and DoJ to consider and agree on officer numbers to fulfil the services, operational demands and its responsibility to keep Northern Ireland safe. I am reassured that while the PSNI, as of 1 October, has 6,303 full-time equivalent officers, the New Decade, New Approach draft programme for government aspires to 7,500, which is definitely a step in the right direction.
With regard to how police officers will make decisions in practice to be satisfied that a search is necessary, which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, the PSNI has operational independence. It is for it to determine how it will apply this. This should do nothing to restrict its efforts. In terms of making the threshold higher, this is a new power. Codes of practice have always been available to be viewed. “Consulted” was probably the wrong term. It should have been in terms of viewing and being able to access, rather than consulting on, the document. It is not a living, breathing document in that way.
Section 6(2) circumstances for a search are an operational decision for the individual officer. How the PSNI wants to do briefings and training will remain an operational matter for it. That also relates to bodycams and their application. We have provided additional funding, and it is up to it how it uses it. I am sure that it will want to get additional bodycams, but that is a matter for it.
With regard to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Caine, about the Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act versus TACT powers, as requested I read into the record that JSA powers are specific to Northern Ireland, timebound and must be authorised by a Minister for a maximum 14 days for a designated geographical area in Northern Ireland. Under these powers, PSNI can stop and search a person without reasonable suspicion to ascertain whether they are in possession of wireless apparatus or are in unlawful possession of munitions. Each JSA authorisation is reviewed and considered by the Secretary of State or someone with their delegated authority if the authorisation is to last longer than 48 hours. The noble Lord, Lord Caine, did many of these in his time as a Minister.
Section 43C of TACT applies across the whole of the UK but can be used only where it is applied as a licence condition and where the police constable is satisfied that it is necessary to do so for purposes connected with protecting members of the public from a risk of terrorism. It has been in operation and, although the number of stop and searches is slightly down this year on last, it has not changed how the police are operating.
I hope that with those reassurances noble Lords will appreciate that this SI is largely technical but is important to policing in Northern Ireland. It will help the police continue to keep people safe. This Government are committed to ensuring that the people of Northern Ireland, as in the rest of the UK, are safe.
Northern Ireland City Deals
Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent
Lord Caine (Con)
My Lords, does the noble Baroness understand the deep dismay over the city deal pause that the Government slipped out late on Friday 13 September, while Parliament was in recess, particularly in the two areas where the deals remain paused: the Mid South West region, which I visited in February, and Causeway Coast and Glens, where I signed the terms of agreement in April and where there is now great uncertainty and limbo? Will she apologise to the House for the shoddy and disrespectful way in which this was announced? Can she assure us that the Secretary of State will employ the full weight of his office to persuade the Chancellor, in the forthcoming Budget, to lift the pause so that these deals can now proceed as planned and deliver investment, growth, jobs and prosperity for the whole of Northern Ireland?
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
I shall be clear: if the former Government had not left us in such a challenging fiscal situation, there would be no financial pause and we would not be in the position we currently are. While I agree that the timing was unfortunate, whenever the announcement was made it would not have been welcomed by those people whom it affected. I assure your Lordships’ House that, since the announcement was made, the Secretary of State and all the officials at the NIO have been working tirelessly with key partners. We are doing everything that we can to make representations to our very dear and close friends at the Treasury, to whom I am going to be very nice for the next 20 days, making it clear how important these deals are to the future of Northern Ireland.
Patrick Finucane Murder
Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent(2 months, 1 week ago)
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Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
I thank the noble Lord for his incredibly generous comments. We will see whether I live up to them—or not—in due course. Given the noble Lord’s role in the last Labour Government, he will be aware that every penny we can spend on economic development and regeneration itself acts as a bridge to peace and to moving on from the Troubles. However, people still need answers. One of the things we have heard in your Lordships’ House today is that people’s hurt is still tangible. We need to do everything we can to provide closure and to move forward on behalf of all the families and all those touched by the Troubles throughout my lifetime.
Lord Caine (Con)
My Lords, as there are a few seconds left, I thank the Minister for her answers this afternoon. When she looks at Hansard, she may notice that she missed one or two of my specific questions. I would be very grateful if she could go away with her officials—some of whom I spy out of the corner of my eye—and possibly write to me with some detailed answers to the questions I put.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
Of course, I apologise if I did not get to all of your Lordships’ questions, and specifically to the noble Lord, Lord Caine. I will check Hansard for the full debate and respond appropriately.