Liaison

Debate between Lord Butler of Brockwell and Lord Forsyth of Drumlean

Thursday 27th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

I shall speak briefly. As the noble Lord has pointed out, I added my name to the e-mail that was sent. I say to the Chairman of Committees that I think it is a bit bureaucratic to say that the deadline was 15 January when we had a major debate in this House on the Civil Service in which almost every speech expressed concern about maintaining the integrity of the Civil Service and its political independence. After that there were moves at a very senior level in the other place to have an initiative on a joint basis between both Houses. Therefore, we made a request for a committee to be established after the deadline because of the circumstances that occurred in both Chambers of Parliament. I say very gently to the Chairman of Committees that, if the Liaison Committee is so concerned about its procedures that it does not take account of what is being said in both Houses of Parliament, perhaps more flexibility needs to be introduced into these procedures.

I am very concerned indeed by some of the proposals being put forward for reform of the Civil Service. When I was Secretary of State for Scotland, we were in government but I always felt that I was in opposition. The Civil Service in the Scottish Office was pretty committed to establishing a Scottish Parliament and we were pretty committed to not establishing a Scottish Parliament. We were also committed to a whole range of quite radical reforms that went against the grain. I have to say that I never, ever experienced anything other than complete and total professional service from the Civil Service. If you gave it a lead, it would respond, and respond with great professionalism and integrity.

I observe the Civil Service now; I observe the degree to which there is turnover in important departments such as the Treasury; I look at the numbers of Permanent Secretaries who seem to survive for less than 12 months; and I look at the proposals that are coming from the coalition to politicise and increase the number of special advisers. These are all hugely revolutionary and important changes and when, come the general election, each political party will no doubt have something to say on its views on the Civil Service, it will be important that we have an informed debate.

I therefore regret the fact that there will not be an opportunity for us to have a proper look at these issues so that people can make up their minds as to what the right way forward is. I very much hope that, as the noble Lord, Lord McNally, said, should a proposal come from the House of Commons we would respond to it so that the expertise and experience that exist in this House in all quarters can add to what is a central debate to the future of our constitution and good government in our country.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, I make it clear that I make no criticism of the procedures of the Liaison Committee, which were perfectly fair, although I agree with the noble Lords, Lord McNally and Lord Forsyth, that there is an issue for Parliament here. The proposal that there were issues of such importance affecting the Civil Service that they required investigation had the support of not only the Public Administration Select Committee in another place but all the chairmen of the Select Committees that examine departments. It was a unanimous proposal from the Liaison Committee in another place. These are issues of importance, which may well be in the manifestos for the next general election. As I said in my remarks on 16 January, it would be extraordinary if Parliament did not examine them when there is such senior support for that in the House. While I absolutely understand the procedures that were followed by the Liaison Committee and have never sought to overturn either its recommendations or the list of subjects that it has proposed, I hope, as other speakers have, that if the House of Commons goes ahead with setting up an examination of these issues, the Liaison Committee of this House will be flexible enough to agree that this House should join in that investigation.

Procedure of the House

Debate between Lord Butler of Brockwell and Lord Forsyth of Drumlean

Wednesday 24th April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The Back-Bench committee in the other place is, of course, elected and not selected by the usual channels. Can the noble Lord tell us how he sees this committee being selected? My view of it is very dependent on it being elected if it is to be as effective as the noble Lord suggests.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell]

The method of appointment is not specified in the resolution but, for my part, I wholly agree with the noble Lord. It is right that such a committee should be elected and it should, of course, include representatives of all the groups in the House, as indeed happens in another place.

The establishment of the committee has been a success in another place. The Procedure Committee there says that it has been widely welcomed as a successful and effective innovation. The Government have said that they “agree with that conclusion” of the Procedure Committee. I suspect that agreement may be through gritted teeth, on the grounds that what has been done cannot be undone. I also suspect—and I hope that I am not doing the noble Lord the Leader an injustice—that the Government in this House suspect that the subjects chosen for debate by a Back-Bench debates committee might be more interesting and more topical than they would ideally wish. Of course, individual Back-Benchers should, and will, continue to be able to get unintermediated access to the Order Paper through Questions for Short Debate, and the Leader has said that opportunities for such debates will be increased.

Therefore, I urge the House to support the Motion for a trial run of a Back-Bench debates committee, as recommended by the cross-party Leader’s Group chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad. If we are eager, as we should be, to promote the relevance of debates in this House and the better use of the time and expertise that are available here, we should do so. My message to the House is: Back-Benchers of the House unite—you have nothing to lose but your chains.