Justice and Security Bill [HL]

Lord Butler of Brockwell Excerpts

Tuesday 26th March 2013 Lords Chamber

In summary, following the detailed and well informed debates on the Bill in this House—I am sorry to have taken so long to report on their consequences, but I feel that the detail is important—we were able to move amendments in the Commons that address a number of the concerns raised in this House. The amendments make clear the parliamentary character of the ISC, while placing limitations on its power to publish the evidence it receives; they clarify the Data Protection Act and Freedom of Information Act status of the ISC; they provide statutory protections for evidence given by witnesses before the ISC; they give the ISC an express power to take evidence on oath; they clarify and extend the ISC’s powers to oversee operational matters; and they restrict the power to withhold information from the ISC to Secretary of State level.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell]

My Lords, in general, the amendments which the Minister has described are very welcome to the Intelligence and Security Committee. On behalf of the committee and my noble friend who is also a member of it, I thank the Government for the consideration they have given.

There are three issues that I should like briefly to put to the Minister. First, he said that in respect of access to operational information the committee will be given oversight of operational activity in three circumstances. In relation to the first, it is given retrospectively and if the matter is significant, and that is the usual type of operation that the committee currently considers. Secondly, as the Minister said, the ISC may also be given information about an operation if the Prime Minister wishes the committee to examine it. Therefore, current operations are not ruled out in those rather special circumstances. Thirdly, as the Minister said, the ISC may be given information about any operations if the agencies volunteer that information. There is a respect in which the word “voluntarily”, which appears in the Bill, can seem a little misleading and might even appear restrictive. At present, the agencies do indeed, of their own free will, confide frequently in the committee about operations, but “voluntarily” may suggest that this category is going to be restricted somewhat. I should be grateful if the Minister could give an assurance to the House, as he did when the Bill was before us previously, that there is no intention to restrict the current degree of information which the intelligence agencies give the committee about their operations.

The second issue is the question of resources. As the Minister said, it has been agreed that the ISC will become a grant-aided body. The assurances that I should like to ask the Minister, on behalf of the committee, to give are no doubt the assurances that he would expect me to ask him to give. The Government have repeatedly stated that they want to strengthen oversight. Does the Minister acknowledge on behalf of the Government that if oversight is to be strengthened the tools to carry it out will have to be provided? Can he give a commitment that the ISC will be given a substantial increase in resources that recognises this remit?

We have so far not reached agreement with the Government on what the grant is going to be. Those discussions are going on but it will have to be substantially higher than the present level of grant. Can the Minister confirm that the Government recognise that? Can he give some comfort to the committee that, although those negotiations have not been completed, the Government recognise that a substantial increase will be necessary?

The third point relates to the publication of classified information, to which the Minister also referred. Can he confirm that Schedule 1, which, quite rightly, puts safeguards on the committee’s power to publish classified or sensitive information, is not intended to prevent the ISC publishing other, non-classified material—for example, the issuing of press releases, open letters or newspaper articles, which the committee, or the chairman on its behalf, does from time to time?

If the Minister could give some assurances to the committee on those points, we would be very grateful.

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[Lord Butler of Brockwell]

Before the noble and learned Lord sits down, perhaps I may ask a layman’s question. It may be an oversimplified one. The essential condition the court has to be satisfied with is not, principally, whether the Secretary of State has considered PII—that is certainly one of the conditions—but that it is in the interests of the fair and effective administration of justice in the proceedings to make such a declaration. Is that not the principal test and what all this is about?

[Lord Goldsmith]

The principal test should be whether the only fair way of determining the matter is through a CMP. That is a very simple statement. It is a very simple test but for some reason the Government do not want to accept that as the test that should be applied.

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[Lord Butler of Brockwell]

My Lords, I want to reinforce what the Minister has said about the prejudice which a sunset clause would have to the confidence which partners would have in us. I noticed that the noble Lord, Lord Marks, was modifying his proposals in his speech because he has recognised that.

Let us suppose that an ally is at this moment considering whether to pass confidences to the Government. If those confidences were held by the intelligence services they would be protected under the Bill. If they were held by another department, they could be protected only by a certificate passed by a Secretary of State. If at this moment the ally was considering whether to pass those confidences to this country and was uncertain whether in four or five years’ time there would be closed procedures under which that certificate could then be considered, it would be a matter of uncertainty whether those confidences would be protected in four or five years’ time. That would affect the willingness of allies to pass secrets to us now. It would, therefore, be very damaging if a sunset clause in the form proposed originally by the noble Lord, Lord Marks, supported by the Opposition, were to pass into law. I very much hope that the House will not support that proposal.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, I support the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Marks, and I am prepared to say at this stage that I will not be pressing my own amendment, which is on similar terms at least to the last amendment that the noble Lord has moved.

The noble Lord, Lord Butler, has adumbrated a case in which it would seem almost that the doctrine that no Parliament can bind its successor is somehow to be disregarded. Of course, it would be open to any subsequent Parliament to amend this law in any event. Any nation dealing with us will be aware of that. There is not, therefore, a great deal of force in what the noble Lord has been proposing as a justification for supporting the Government’s position on this matter.

The question arises: what is the point of a review? If a review is to take place—and the Government have given welcome acceptance to that concept—where does it lead? Apparently it would lead nowhere. The whole purpose of the review in these circumstances would be vitiated. There needs to be a review, given the nature of the change in our proceedings for us to establish a principle that there should be a renewal, and certainly on that basis I am prepared to support the noble Lord’s amendments.