Scottish Government: Expenditure

Debate between Lord Bruce of Bennachie and Lord Offord of Garvel

Tuesday 6th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that question. In the Scotland Act, the devolution settlement is actually very simple. You can put it on one piece of A4; on the left you have devolved matters, and on the right reserved matters. The issue here is that since we have come out of the EU, in effect we have had to create a single market for the UK. The SNP loves the EU; it wants to be in a single market with 27 or 28 states, and agrees that there should be no divergence within that system. Post devolution, we now have a scenario in which we have four assemblies making laws in the UK but we want to keep the UK together. So now they are promoting a whole series of legislative moves that create divergence, which the people of Scotland do not want, especially in trade, not least as 60% of Scotland’s trade is with the rest of the United Kingdom and does not recognise borders.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, the Scottish Government have squandered hundreds of millions of pounds on mismanaged projects. They had a £2 billion underspend last year, have squeezed local government savagely and have made Scotland the highest-taxed area of the United Kingdom. Is it not clear that the current Scottish Parliament has neither the will nor the capacity to hold its Executive to account, and does not a wider consideration therefore need to be taken into account?

Scotland: Meeting with New First Minister

Debate between Lord Bruce of Bennachie and Lord Offord of Garvel

Wednesday 29th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

It is an interesting quirk of history brought up by the noble Lord, but it demonstrates the diversity of this country and the great strength that we have. We must again congratulate Humza Yousaf on being the first Muslim First Minister of Scotland.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

I think everybody would hope that the relationship between the UK and Scottish Government could be constructive and I congratulate Humza Yousaf. I understand that there has been a courteous exchange between him and the Prime Minister. Would not it be helpful if both the UK and Scottish Governments acknowledged that their nationalist ideologies have proved deeply divisive in the UK and Scotland respectively, and that what people actually want are Governments who will focus on the crisis that they have created in the cost of living, energy, the health service and education? What we want is government for the people and no more nationalist ideology.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The noble Lord is right to call on the Scottish Government to focus on the people’s priorities. That came across very strongly in the SNP election, where it turned out that, as far as audiences are concerned, independence is way down their list of priorities. In fact, Kate Forbes, who had 48% of the vote, made it clear that continuity would not cut it. She acknowledged that the UK position is that there is no sustained majority for independence in Scotland. It was therefore rather disappointing, I have to say, to hear that in the first exchange between the First Minister and the Prime Minister yet again Section 30 was brought up. It is old tapes that we do not need to hear again. The Supreme Court has already opined on it and the UK Government’s position will not change.

Scottish Government: Ultra Vires Expenditure

Debate between Lord Bruce of Bennachie and Lord Offord of Garvel

Thursday 9th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

My noble friend is correct to point out this recent development, and the police have now indicated that they are taking evidence from witnesses under caution. That procedure needs to be allowed to run its course. The wheels of justice grind slowly, but hopefully they grind fine.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, it may be reasonable for the Scottish Government to have overseas representations to promote trade, investment and tourism, but is it not worth reminding them and indeed the wider Scottish public that the UK has an extensive network of high commissions, embassies and consulates which do exactly that for all regions of the UK, including Scotland, and all the citizens of the UK? Are the Government satisfied that, when Scottish Ministers are abroad and they avail themselves of UK diplomatic facilities, they do not do so to promote separatism and the disintegration of the United Kingdom, a role for which they have no legitimacy?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

Yes, foreign affairs are a reserved matter under Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998 and are therefore the sole responsibility of the UK Government and UK Parliament. However, the Scottish Government and other devolved Administrations are entitled to conduct some international activity in support of their own devolved responsibilities, such as promotion of cultural exchanges and events, which they often do within the embassy network we have throughout the world. The Scotland Act is clear that foreign affairs are outside the competence of the Scottish Government and therefore they cannot and should not encroach into matters such as separatism or the constitution. We are aware that they have been doing that in recent times. As I just reported to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, the Secretary of State for Scotland has met with the Foreign Secretary and that will be very closely monitored in future.

Scotland Act 1998: Section 35 Power

Debate between Lord Bruce of Bennachie and Lord Offord of Garvel

Wednesday 18th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

Will the Minister accept—I think he has to—that it was a very controversial decision to use this power for the first time since devolution, especially, as the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, has said, when the Government lack trust in many quarters regarding their respect for devolution? It has generated a predictable response from the SNP, which is itself divided on the issue and struggling to find a way forward in its interminable campaign for a second referendum.

Will the Minister confirm, nevertheless, that the Government accept that the passing of the gender recognition Bill falls entirely within the powers of the Scottish Government? The Scottish Parliament is adamant that nothing in the Bill impacts on the UK Equality Act. The UK Government say that they have legal advice to the effect that it does, although some lawyers—not all—see the grounds as thin and not justifying the scale of this action. However, as the First Minister has indicated, it appears that it will inevitably be referred to the Court of Session and thence possibly to the Supreme Court. Are the Government’s legal advisers confident of success?

I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, that it is regrettable that trans people are caught in the crossfire of this dispute. I suggest to the Minister that this is a distraction that suits both Governments, because they are failing to deal with the manifold crises we face in the health service, energy, cost of living, education and transport. These are the central issues dominating the worries and concerns of everyone across Scotland and the whole of the UK. They want their Governments to concentrate on finding ways through the perfect storm that they have helped create. This distraction does not address the needs and priorities of anyone in the UK. Trans people do not deserve to be caught in the middle of it.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Offord of Garvel) (Con)]

My Lords, it is only after very careful consideration that the Secretary of State for Scotland has decided to make an order under Section 35 of the Scotland Act 1998 to prevent the Scottish Parliament’s Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill from proceeding to Royal Assent. He has considered policy and legal advice and determined that he has reasonable grounds to believe that the Bill would have an adverse impact on the operation of Great Britain-wide equality legislation.

Transgender people deserve our respect, support and understanding. The Secretary of State’s decision is about the consequences of the legislation for the operation of GB-wide equalities protections and other reserved matters. He has therefore concluded that this is the necessary and correct course of action. The decision has not been taken lightly, as he said repeatedly in the other place yesterday.

The Government would prefer not to be in this situation. We do all we can to respect the devolution settlement and resolve disputes. This is the first time that the Section 35 power of the Scotland Act has been used. The Government recognise that this is a significant decision, but Section 35 was included by the Act’s architects to ensure that, in a situation such as this, devolved law and law throughout the United Kingdom can work together effectively.

If the Scottish Government choose to bring an amended Bill back for reconsideration in the Scottish Parliament, we can work together to find a constructive way forward that respects both devolution and the operation of UK Parliament legislation. We have set out the detailed concerns that the UK Government have with the Bill in the Statement published yesterday. We want to work with the Scottish Government to resolve these issues. The EHRC stands ready to help; its ongoing concerns are on the record.

Transport (Scotland) Act 2019 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2023

Debate between Lord Bruce of Bennachie and Lord Offord of Garvel

Tuesday 17th January 2023 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Offord of Garvel) (Con)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to debate this order, which was laid on 22 November 2022. It is a result of collaborative working between the two Governments in Scotland. It is made under Section 104 of the Scotland Act 1998, which allows for necessary legislative amendments in consequence of an Act of the Scottish Parliament. Scotland Act orders are a demonstration of devolution in action. I am pleased to say that, although this is my first order, the Scotland Office has taken through over 250 orders since devolution began 25 years ago.

In this case, the order contains amendments to Section 26(1) of the Transport Act 1985 as a consequence of the Transport (Scotland) Act 2019, which I shall refer to as the 2019 Act. This provides new powers to the traffic commissioner to impose public service vehicle licence conditions on operators who fail to discharge obligations imposed on operators under the 2019 Act and the order. The 2019 Act is also a multitopic piece of legislation, designed to deliver a more responsive and sustainable transport system for everyone in Scotland. The 2019 Act makes provision in a range of areas, such as pavement parking, roadworks, workplace parking licensing, smart ticketing, low emission zones, and bus services—the latter three of which are the genesis of this order. It also empowers local authorities and establishes consistent standards in a range of areas to tackle current and future challenges regarding transport in Scotland.

I will now explain the effect the order will have and the provision it will make. It will permit the DVLA and the Joint Air Quality Unit to share vehicle information to relevant Scottish bodies to enable the operation and enforcement of the low emission zones.

The order will make provision updating the enforcement regime for the competition test under Section 37 of the Transport (Scotland) Act 2001, so that it applies to a Scottish local transport authority’s functions relating to bus service improvement partnerships, which will replace the quality partnership model introduced in the 2001 Act. This amended enforcement regime will also apply to the making and varying of ticketing schemes made under the 2001 Act after the amended regime comes into force. The order will also make equivalent provision to that made under part 2 of Schedule 10 to the Transport Act 2000, to apply a bespoke set of rules to certain agreements, decisions and practices made pursuant to bus service improvement partnerships, in place of the Chapter I prohibition under the Competition Act 1998.

Further, the order will make provision to ensure that the rights and protections afforded by the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations —TUPE—will apply to employees who are affected when local services franchising is introduced in an area of Scotland. This includes provision allowing local transport authorities to request certain employee information from bus operators. In connection with that, the order will ensure that pension protection will apply to circumstances that are to be treated as “relevant transfer” for the purposes of TUPE, when local services franchising is introduced in an area of Scotland.

Although certain transport matters are devolved to Scotland, I am pleased to support the important legislation through this Scotland Act order on behalf of the UK Government. I beg to move.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that introduction. I have one or two questions. The order specifically focuses on low emission zones and integrated ticketing, including linking between railways and ferries, about which there is something of an issue in Scotland at the moment.

The reason why we require this is not entirely clear to me. What are the competition issues that require a UK agreement? I am not complaining about it; I want clarification. To put it the other way round: to what extent might there be a diversion within Scotland? Does that require UK Government consent or is it entirely a matter within the devolved responsibility?

To go to the specifics, low emission zones create some degree of controversy, not only in Scotland but elsewhere. I notice from looking at my local press that quite a few people are unhappy about them in Aberdeen and Glasgow. That is not a reason for not doing them; it is probably desirable to do so, but changes such as that mean that traffic going past certain businesses may change to their detriment. Do these issues have to be taken into account or are they just an unfortunate consequence?

On integrated ticketing, ScotRail and most of the ferries are wholly owned by the Scottish Government, although there are private operators, so what is the competition impact of that? Is it on other private operators —alternative forms of transport—which would seem valid to me? From looking at the various briefs, the established practice is clearly that each region and local authority in England has its own rules about this, and it seems that we are just applying the same rules in Scotland. Is that to have consistency across the piece so that, wherever they are in the UK, people can appreciate that the principles behind these will broadly be the same?

I concur with what the Minister said at the beginning. As a strong supporter of devolution—indeed, I would call myself a passionate home ruler—but not of separatism, it is good to see proper working between the two Governments; it is desirable. It would just be good if the Scottish Government could acknowledge that it happens a little more openly and be a bit more constructive about it, because to my mind that is how it should work.

Obviously, reassurance on TUPE—it is about workers’ rights, I guess, and is absolutely a UK matter—is welcome. I happen to be a member of the Common Frameworks Scrutiny Committee. We have been going through all these issues; indeed, the noble Lord opposite has also gone through that process, which has been slow and cumbersome and is a long way short of being complete. We are finding that there should not be difference for difference’s sake. It is good to have standard and agreed practices but divergence should also be allowed to apply. I want some assurance that, in passing this order, we are neither imposing conditions unnecessarily nor preventing diversion where it is necessary. On the basis that the Minister has said that it has been agreed between the two Governments, I assume that there are no outstanding issues of that sort.

Scottish Independence

Debate between Lord Bruce of Bennachie and Lord Offord of Garvel

Wednesday 7th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The noble Lord should be well aware that Gordon Brown has been on this journey for quite a while; he proposes a federal United Kingdom. But when one of the four nations has 85% of the population and 90% of the wealth and it does not want devolution, you have a problem. So I agree with the noble Lord that devolution did not kill independence stone dead, but I am very clear that the Scottish National Party commands the support of only one-third of the Scottish electorate and therefore it should get on with the job in hand, which is to manage Scotland within the devolution settlement.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister recognise that while this document is strong on nationalist rhetoric, it is almost entirely deficient in detail? Does he say that the SNP does not have the capacity to second-guess the outcome of negotiations with either the rest of the UK, the EU or the financial markets, and that it should recognise that Scottish opinion is still divided and what it should be doing is getting on with the job in hand, addressing what matters in the ailing health service and declining education, and end this embarrassing distraction?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The noble Lord is obviously well versed in the Scottish economy and Scottish affairs. I make two observations on the paper, the glossy document. First, as we have come to expect from a Scottish Government with 27 Ministers and 56 press officers, for every policy initiative there is a glossy document and a glitzy, headline-making press release. The problem the Scottish people have, which we have found to our cost, is that actual policy delivery on the ground ranges from non-existent to incompetent. Secondly, any reader of the glossy document will discover four glaring omissions: no explanation of how an independent Scotland would reduce our annual deficit of £24 billion, which is 25% of our annual budget; no explanation of how an independent Scotland would fund this deficit without access to international bond markets through its own currency; no explanation of how an independent Scotland would operate a hard border on the island of Great Britain; and no explanation of how an independent Scotland would access the knowledge economy when the SNP has wrecked our education system.

Scottish Referendum Legislation: Supreme Court Judgement

Debate between Lord Bruce of Bennachie and Lord Offord of Garvel

Thursday 24th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

My noble friend is an eminent former Secretary of State for Scotland and knows his territory well. He will also be aware of the architecture put in place at the time of the 1998 Act, which has been further improved by the 2012 and 2016 settlements. Within that, the UK Government give the Scottish Government the discretion to spend their money on behalf of the Scottish people, and it is down to the Scottish people to give their view on that at the ballot box.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, the outcome of the Supreme Court judgment was predictable end inevitable. It has been a distraction and a complete waste of time and Scottish taxpayers’ money, and I speak with personal affront about that. Will the Minister consider in any future referendum setting out the conditions and criteria by which a referendum would be triggered and conducted, so that people know the circumstances and do not have to suffer this never-ending push? Does he agree that for the SNP to complain about democracy is to forget that they have betrayed the people of Scotland, who have twice voted for devolution and never voted for independence?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The noble Lord, another eminent Scottish politician, is well aware of the circumstances in which they are operating. There is no need to be talking about another referendum. The Supreme Court has made it very clear that there is no avenue for that within the Scottish Government. More importantly, there is no appetite now. When the referendum was held in 2014, there was consensus across both Parliaments, all parties and civil society that the referendum should be held. Some 3.6 million Scots voted, 2 million of whom voted to stay in the UK while 1.6 million voted to leave. That is a decisive result and, given that since that time the SNP has consistently polled only in the region of 1.3 million to 1.4 million votes, it has no more than one-third of the population who want to pursue a separatist agenda, in which case there is no need for us to consider another referendum.