Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) Order 2019
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Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)
My Lords, I do not think that anyone could possibly object to this order or indeed the order which the Minister will bring before us as the final business today. However, I should like to pay tribute to the procedures which have brought it before the House.
Some 21 years ago, I was dealing with the Committee and Report stages of the 1998 Scotland Bill in this Chamber. It was a very carefully drafted statute, and it is of great interest to me to see the way in which the various provisions in the latter part of that Act and in the schedules are brought together, both in this order and in the one that follows it, to allow necessary little corrective steps to be taken without any delay or disruption to the devolution system which was laid down.
We are told in the head note to this order that it is to be approved by the Scottish Parliament as well as by each House of the United Kingdom Parliament, and that is as it should be. However, it is worth paying tribute to the draftsmen of the 1998 Act that the procedures are available both for a draft statutory instrument as well as for an order to be laid under the other provisions which are referred to in the regulatory reform order that we will consider later. These are working out to the good of the system.
Beyond that, I welcome the order and I am glad that the Minister has been able to introduce it so briefly.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)
I echo what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, has said. This is the way we hope things will work with a devolved Parliament and Administration but where there is shared decision-making. I have only one question, because the powers are concurrent. When the Minister responds, will he explain what happens in the unlikely event that there is a matter of dispute? It is territorial and this order effectively devolves the power to Scottish Ministers, but if “concurrent” means what it implies, in theory the Secretary of State in the UK Government could say, “I do not agree”. That is unlikely in the circumstances, but I wonder if the Minister can clarify what would happen.
Lord Davidson of Glen Clova (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his exposition of the order. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, has said, no one could disagree with it.
We are coming up to the 20th anniversary of the creation of the Scottish Parliament and of Scottish Ministers. At some point, it might be interesting to hear the view of Her Majesty’s Government of the performance of the devolved Executive over the past two decades, with some focus on its delivery in devolved areas such as education and health. That might be both interesting and instructive.
As for the order, the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, has raised a good and sensible point. Concurrency of Scottish Ministers and the Secretary of State in relation to the functions raises the possibility, although it may be remote, of differences of view and possibly a dispute. Do Her Majesty’s Government envisage that any disputes might arise and how, if they arose, they might be resolved?
I have asked a question about resolution of disputes. As the Minister may recollect, I asked a similar question when the forestry order came up, but I do not recall getting an answer—perhaps matters will alter. It may simply be—this is to a degree foreshadowed by the observations of the noble Lord, Lord Bruce—that this is an area where Her Majesty’s Government do not detect the possibility of differences arising between Scottish Ministers and the Secretary of State.
Northern Ireland (Extension of Period for Executive Formation) Regulations 2019
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Lord Adonis (Lab)
My Lords, the issues raised in this order are serious and indeed grave. It will not have escaped the House’s attention that there is no representative from Northern Ireland in the Chamber, as far as I can see—which rather brings home the gravity of the situation we are talking about and the need to get the devolved institutions working. Clearly it is not satisfactory that these issues should be determined in the absence not only of one part of the community of Northern Ireland, which alas is always the case in this House and in the other place, but frequently in the absence of any representatives from Northern Ireland at all.
In respect of the way forward, those of us who do not follow the politics of Northern Ireland day by day were under the impression several months ago that the Government were making progress in agreeing with the parties in Northern Ireland for there to be a mediator. However, nothing appears to have happened since. I am sure that a lot has happened behind the scenes, but certainly nothing has happened in public. Can the Minister give Parliament some encouragement that this might happen? He will have heard clearly a real sense of concern around the House that weeks will turn into months and years, the status quo in Northern Ireland will remain that of no Executive and no sitting Assembly, and obviously there will come a point where the situation simply breaks down.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)
My Lords, the Minister may feel that there is an element of Groundhog Day about this debate—but that was a comedy and this situation is becoming increasingly tragic. I echo all the speeches expressing concern about the lack of progress. We need, through the Minister, to press the Secretary of State for some more positive signs of action and creative, imaginative thinking. Neither the Government nor this Parliament have any real credibility as honest brokers in this situation. The Government, as has been said, are perceived, frankly, to be under the thumb of the DUP. Everybody knows that when one deals with the DUP, they do nothing without exacting a price, whether it is visible or invisible. As the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, said, whether or not anything is happening, the perception is that it is—and indeed, looking at the practice, it would not be surprising for people to have that perception.
As has also been said, this Parliament has little credibility, because the majority of the parties in Northern Ireland are not represented here. This also makes the possibility of direct rule almost unthinkable. How can Ministers accountable only to this Parliament be at all credible as brokers of direct rule on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland when the people of Northern Ireland have very little representative voice?
Lord Cormack (Con)
Does the noble Lord agree that it is a great pity that, with the disappearance of the SDLP in the other place, there is no voice of moderate nationalism in either House?
Lord Bruce of Bennachie
Indeed—we lost the SDLP and the Alliance in the House of Commons, and that absolutely adds to the problem. We have to recognise that, as does the Secretary of State. Frankly, she alone does not have the capacity to call the parties together and get a result without looking more widely. It has been said in previous debates that there is no momentum or willingness to bring the Northern Ireland Assembly back together until Brexit has been resolved and there has perhaps been an election in the Irish Republic. Well, that is looking an increasingly distant prospect, and those who take that view have to explain how they can possibly justify waiting for such an indeterminate, indefinite time before they are prepared to engage in this process. Pressure needs to be brought to bear by those who have the ability to pressurise each of the parties and to whom those parties are most likely to respond—and I have to say that the British Government and Parliament do not feature in that particular calculation. So I suggest that we should not be expected to wait for Brexit or the Irish elections to be resolved.
My question is very consistent with the other points that have been made. Is it not time for the Government to recognise that we need to bring the guarantors of the Good Friday agreement—all of them—back together? We need to bring together those agencies that made it possible to get a peace agreement in difficult circumstances 20 or so years ago. Of course, that means the UK and Irish Governments and all the political parties. I have to say the European Union as well, because it has been part of that process, and the United States. All of them need to be brought together, and that is why we need some kind of independent chair for those discussions who will command credibility on all sides. Why on earth is that not happening?
This has been delayed because the Secretary of State has been having conversations. I am sorry, but the Secretary of State’s conversations will lead nowhere, because she does not have the authority to make sure that they do. The question, therefore, is: will the Government consider practical steps, along the lines that have been suggested, to bring Assembly Members together, either in a full Assembly or in committees—preferably both—so that they actually engage with each other on practical, day-to-day issues?
I read in the Explanatory Memorandum the assertion made by the Secretary of State—perhaps on this point I should accept the assertion—that the provisions of these regulations are compatible with the Convention on Human Rights. It is beginning to become questionable whether the human rights of the people of Northern Ireland are actually being put at risk by this long delay. The Explanatory Memorandum says:
“There is no, or no significant, impact on business, charities or voluntary bodies … An Impact Assessment has not been prepared for this instrument because there is no, or no significant, impact”.
Well, I beg to differ. I think that there is a very significant impact on all those bodies in Northern Ireland from the continuation of this complete stalemate, and the total lack of effective government.
Every day that goes by, the people of Northern Ireland suffer more and more from the lack of decision-making, and the situation becomes more fraught and more dangerous. We have seen, only in the last 24 hours, that a mortar was found on a roadside in County Down. As far as one can tell, it was left by the roadside to be collected by another party with a view to perpetrating a terrorist attack. All the main parties, of course, have denounced that, but that is the problem: the main parties are not engaged, the Assembly is not functioning and other bodies may feel they have some kind of dispensation to take control. The situation is extremely dangerous and I plead with the Minister to recognise that this Government and this Parliament cannot solve the problem. We need to turn to all the international bodies that were instrumental in bringing peace to Northern Ireland in the first place to try to ensure that we break the deadlock. We cannot wait for Brexit or for an Irish election; we have until August or we are in deep, deep trouble—and I really think that the Minister has to accept that.
Lord Lexden (Con)
My Lords, I must apologise for not being here at the start of the debate, other business having moved on so quickly. I shall be very brief. Our debate has made clear that signs of encouragement are hard to find at the moment. The Secretary of State herself made the lack of any serious current activity absolutely plain when, on 21 March, she was forced by the Opposition in another place to make a Statement about this order, which was brought forward with unseemly haste, I think. Ms Bradley said:
“I intend to spend the next few weeks working with them”—
she was referring to the local parties in Northern Ireland—
“on actions that can be taken so that, when we are able to start a formal talks process, we are able to do so in a way that gives us the best chance of success”.—[Official Report, Commons, 21/3/19; col. 1229.]
Our fellow countrymen and women in Ulster have had to endure the absence of democratic control over their vital public services—education, health, social welfare—for two and a quarter years. What does the Secretary of State tell them as these services continue to deteriorate? That she hopes to start a formal talks process at some unspecified point after preliminary discussions with Ulster’s five main parties. Have we not been here many times before since January 2017?
Our recent debates on Northern Ireland have shown wide agreement across this House on two points above all. They have been mentioned in this debate in particular by my noble friend Lord Cormack, former chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee in the Commons, who speaks with such authority. First, we are at one in doubting whether a serious talks process can be brought to a successful conclusion without the help of an eminent individual from outside Northern Ireland who will be able to command full respect across the Province. Secondly, it is widely felt that the existing Assembly should meet so that its Members can themselves consider what role they might play in bringing about the progress that is so badly needed. I associate myself fully with those two points, which have again been brought out so well in this debate.
I will raise one further matter with my noble friend. He promised a Written Statement following our debate on the acute problems surrounding the renewable heating scheme in Northern Ireland. Could he say when that Written Statement might become available?
This order provides another five months in which a path back to full democracy in Northern Ireland can be found. We all hope for success, but as things stand today it is difficult to feel great optimism.
Flags (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
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Lord Bruce of Bennachie
At the end insert “but this House regrets that the draft Regulations are unnecessary as there is no value in prohibiting the flying of flags in Northern Ireland on Europe Day, which celebrates peace and prosperity in Europe.”
Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his introduction and for the update after the debate we had in Grand Committee last week. He said then that he thought there were only a small number of relevant buildings.
There are two important points behind this. The first is about the flying of a flag to mark Europe Day and the specifics of when that flag should be the Europe flag. This statutory instrument removes permission to fly the Europe flag, even on those five or six buildings, apparently on the grounds that it would cause offence. I do not know whether that is the implication.
The second and serious point behind this is that there seems to be an assumption that because the UK may be about to leave the European Union, if we leave before 8 May—if we do leave—it would be illegal to fly the Europe flag on a public building in Northern Ireland. This seems to be unnecessary legislation with which to detain the House at all, as well as undesirable.
I will develop the arguments that I put in Grand Committee last week. I completely understand that the flying of flags in Northern Ireland is highly sensitive and contentious. We saw how contentious it was when the flying of the union flag in Belfast was limited. It led to riots and the destruction of the office of our sister party, the Alliance Party, so of course I understand the sensitivity of the flying of flags, although I have not heard that flying the Europe flag has caused that kind of reaction in Northern Ireland.
The history of the flag is that it is the Europe flag. Is it is the flag of the European Union, but it is not only the flag of the European Union; it is also the flag of the Council of Europe. Much more to the point, it was originally designed as the flag of the Council of Europe. It was commissioned and brought into use in 1955, a year before the European Community came into existence. That being the case, I point out to the House that there is a serious issue here because Britain was a founder member of the Council of Europe and Britain is not leaving the Council of Europe. The flag is the flag of the Council of Europe, and on that basis there is every good reason why we should show how European we are by flying the flag on Europe Day.
There is an issue about when Europe Day is. The EU designates Europe Day as 9 May, whereas the Council of Europe designates it as 5 May: 5 May was the date of the foundation of the Council of Europe in 1949 and 9 May was the day in 1949 when Schuman made his declaration to commemorate peace in Europe.
There is something fundamentally disturbing about the Government actively wanting to remove any consideration that there might be a flag flying somewhere in the UK, certainly in Northern Ireland, that gives the impression that we have not left the European Union—assuming that we have left—and I would like to turn that on its head.
The reason I have brought my amendment to the Chamber, as well as introducing it in Grand Committee, is that, as the Minister himself said, the guidelines issued by the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport for the rest of Great Britain follow the same pattern, the difference being that in the rest of the UK they are just guidelines, whereas in Northern Ireland it is a matter of law. Nevertheless, the recommendation is that the Europe flag should cease to be flown in the UK, should we leave the EU. I think that I have articulated why this flag, as a Europe flag, should continue to be encouraged, and allowed, to be flown. It is to prove a point that Ministers repeatedly make—that we might be leaving the European Union but we are not leaving Europe. Of course, the Minister has also acknowledged that if we have not left the European Union by 9 May—in other words, if the date of 22 May comes into effect—the flags can fly this year. That also suggests to me that this legislation is not urgent in that context.
Therefore, I ask the Government to reconsider the basic thinking behind the idea that the Europe flag should disappear from public buildings in the UK if we leave the EU. My contention is that the Europe flag still has a place in the UK. I would not mind if the date were changed to coincide with the Council of Europe’s Europe Day to make the point. I gather that there is some difficulty in changing the date but I am sure that, if the will were there, it could be done.
Finally, what is the point of Europe Day in the first place? I think that there is an underlying misbelief that it is a day to celebrate the creation and extension of the European Union. However, it is not and never was. It is a day to celebrate peace in Europe and the continuation of that peace. I would like to think that the British people would want to continue to celebrate the fact that we achieved peace in Europe and that we want to continue to promote peace in Europe, regardless of our detailed relationship with our European partners. Let us remember that there are 47 member states of the Council of Europe, against what will be the 27 member states of the European Union.
Let us also remember, in case of misunderstanding, the design of the flag. As I said, it pre-dated the creation of the European Economic Community. People seem to think that the 12 stars represent the member states—which would be an odd choice because there were originally six—but the 12 stars have nothing to do with the number of member states. They are supposed to be a symbol of perfection. They commemorate the 12 tribes of Israel, the 12 apostles, the 12 labours of Hercules and the 12 months of the year. They are supposed to be a symbol of universal perfection and the flag is supposed to be a symbol of peace in Europe. I find it extremely disturbing that the Government are taking time to pass a law saying that we should no longer fly a flag that marks peace in Europe and Britain’s continuing commitment to the people of Europe. For that reason, I believe that we should not accept the spirit behind this statutory instrument.
Lord Deben (Con)
My Lords, I was present in the original debate in the other House when we agreed on the rules for Northern Ireland. Therefore, I hope that nobody will suggest that I am not extremely sympathetic to the concerns about flags in the north of Ireland. There is no doubt that the union flag was being used as a sectarian flag rather than a union flag, and therefore we passed regulations saying that the flag could be used only on certain dates. We also passed an arrangement that enabled us to change that. It is a very clear arrangement which means that a change can be made only with all-community agreement.
That is my first problem with this proposal. When we discussed it with the Minister, he said that we cannot change the date when the flag is flown to the 5th in order to make it clear that it is for the Council of Europe because that would need the agreement of all the communities—but we can stop the flying of the flag without the agreement of all the communities. That seems to be a very odd decision. He will say, of course —and he has—that that is what we said in the withdrawal Act. Well, we can make mistakes. I do not think that anybody in debating the withdrawal Act thought that the Government would specifically bring forward a Motion that does not have the proper assurance of all the communities in the north of Ireland.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply, which, as always, was thoughtful and courteous and took full account of the arguments. He was constructive in his response to the suggestions from the noble Lord, Lord Empey.
I think this problem did not start in Northern Ireland —it started in the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, which took a decision with maybe less thought and less consideration; we are now stuck with the view that, because DCMS has issued guidelines, we have to change the law in Northern Ireland. That is the fundamental problem and the fundamental flaw.
I am glad there are noble Lords here who are not particularly focused on Northern Ireland but who focus on the UK Government and the guidelines for the flying of flags across the whole of the UK. I completely agree that the Europe flag has not normally inspired passion, but it certainly does across the street now and maybe it will in future for those reasons. I accept that the flying of the Europe flag in Northern Ireland is not the fundamental here, but the thinking behind this is fundamental.
The problem I have with what the Minister said—which is extremely constructive and, I am quite sure, genuinely sincere—is that it is on the basis that we pass this instrument tonight. The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, made an important point: this decision should have been made by the Northern Ireland Assembly but that is not functioning. The noble Lord, Lord Deben, made the point that it required complete consensus across Northern Ireland; we do not know whether that exists. The point from the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, is that if and when there were an attempt to reverse the decision, somebody would raise a petition of concern that would make it impossible to reverse it. So the problem confronting us is effectively a direct-rule statutory instrument that I think has been inspired by thinking outside Northern Ireland. Passing it tonight would create a problem that will not easily be resolved and would create further difficulties in Northern Ireland.
I understand the Minister’s concern—to say I have sympathy would be patronising—because I have a feeling that if he were the Secretary of State he might well withdraw this statutory instrument now and say, “I will go away and consult with DCMS”. It is not urgent—we are really all hoping, in any case, that we will be in the EU at least until 22 May, if not beyond, which means the flag can still be flown—so we could forget about this statutory instrument, rethink it and bring it back in a few months. I wish that were possible. I think the Minister has got as close as he could to saying that, but I feel it is not close enough. With double regret—as it is a regret amendment—I wish to test the opinion of the House.
Flags (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)
My Lords, the purpose of this instrument is to remove the legal requirement for Northern Ireland government buildings and court buildings to observe Europe Day—9 May—as a designated flag-flying day after the UK has left the European Union.
Flag-flying from government buildings and court buildings in Northern Ireland is regulated by the Flags Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2000. These regulations provide that on certain designated days the union flag—and, in certain circumstances, other flags—may be flown on government buildings. For the purposes of these regulations, a Northern Ireland government building is defined as a building that is wholly or mainly occupied by members of the Northern Ireland Civil Service. In 2002, the flag-flying requirements in the 2000 regulations were extended to court buildings in Northern Ireland.
The instrument is being made under Section 8(1) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, which makes provisions to deal with arrangements no longer appropriate after the UK leaves the EU. It is worth noting that Europe Day will cease to be a designated flag-flying day across England, Scotland and Wales following the UK’s exit from the EU. The Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport has already amended its guidance to that effect.
When this instrument was first laid, the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee recommended that it should be upgraded to the “made affirmative” procedure so that it could be debated carefully. This is why we are here this evening. I also stress that the power to make these amending regulations under the EU withdrawal Act does not come into force until after exit day. Therefore, subject to the will of Parliament, these regulations will not be made until after exit day has passed. There is every possibility that Europe Day will be marked this year. I beg to move.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)
My Lords, the Minister may be disappointed and surprised to learn that we do not support this statutory instrument. We think it undesirable and unnecessary. None of us can deny that flags in Northern Ireland are a very sensitive issue. Our sister party in Northern Ireland suffered the consequences of the dispute in Belfast in 2012 when its offices were burned out.
This is about a specific flag—the Europe flag—and a specific day. I am very concerned that DCMS has issued guidance—which I presume is not legally enforceable—that, if we leave the European Union, we should no longer fly the Europe flag on Europe Day. This seems a total denial of where this flag came from and what it is supposed to celebrate, which is not the European Union. The flag is in fact much older than the European Union, or even the Common Market: it was, in fact, created in 1955 as the flag of the Council of Europe. It remains the flag of the Council of Europe and the UK will continue to be a member of the Council—for ever, I hope—although the Prime Minister gives the impression that she would like to leave that organisation as well. I would absolutely deplore, as that was one organisation of which we were a founder member.
It is also interesting to note, as a matter of design, that the design of the flag—12 stars against a sky background —represents symbols of perfection. It represents the 12 apostles, the 12 tribes of Israel, the 12 labours of Hercules and the 12 months of the year. It is a symbol of peace in Europe and Europe Day represents peace in Europe, originally foreshadowed by the Schuman declaration. I am pleased that the Minister said that, at least this year, the European flag may continue to fly; at least I think that is what he said, because this year is the 70th anniversary of the foundation of the Council of Europe and it would seem very regrettable then to remove the flag from public buildings in Northern Ireland or anywhere else in the United Kingdom.
I put two questions to the Minister. There is no need whatever for this to be passed, is there not? I am minded—indeed, I intend—to table a Motion to the effect that this statutory instrument should be abandoned and that any such decision as to which flags are flown should be left to the relevant authorities in Northern Ireland as and when they are able to do so. I would also like clarification of what the DCMS guidance means for public buildings in the rest of the United Kingdom where, it seems to me, the Europe flag should fly on Europe Day and other organisations should be allowed to make their own decisions. The only minor detail is whether you fly it on 5 May or 9 May. The European Union chooses to fly it on 9 May, while the Council of Europe flies it on 5 May because that was the date of the foundation of the Council in 1949.
I speak with some passion on this, having been privileged to have been a member of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe for six years. I am a passionate believer that the Council of Europe has contributed hugely to the development of, and the sustaining of peace and democracy in, Europe and that the United Kingdom, which Ministers have consistently said may be leaving the European Union—I say may be—is not leaving Europe. I suggest to the Minister that this is a completely inappropriate statutory instrument, that the DCMS guidelines are also completely inappropriate and that the United Kingdom should continue proudly to fly the flag of Europe, not the European Union, on Europe Day.
Lord Deben (Con)
My Lords, I was present in the debate when we discussed the flags issue in the first place. In the House of Commons at that time, we sought to ensure that the union flag was not used as a badge of sectarian difference. I was not only present but spoke in favour of the Government’s move, against the united opposition of the Ulster Unionists at that time: they did not want those restrictions. The purpose was to promote peace and harmony and to recognise the union flag as the flag of all who lived in the north of Ireland and not just of one part. Therefore, this is a very important issue and nothing that I say is meant to suggest that we should not have this rather different regulation for the north of Ireland, because this is about the history of the misuse of the union flag for sectarian purposes.
I take that very seriously, but I also take very seriously what seems to me to be a cheap and nasty statutory instrument. We have had to put up with all sorts of statutory instruments that we would have to have if we were to leave the European Union without a deal, but this one is not necessary. There is no reason for it at all, except a nasty little smack at the European Union and at Europe as a whole.
If the Government were trying to be helpful and to include people who are so deeply upset by all the Brexit shenanigans, they would merely have changed the date from 9 May to 5 May. We would merely have flown this flag on the day of the Council of Europe; that is the day when the council flies it. So there was a perfectly reasonable way in which the Government could have done that and in which DCMS could have provided its guidance. The truth is that this is unnecessary in any case. It is just mean to treat people in this way, particularly in the north of Ireland where there was a significant vote in favour of remaining within the European Union, and among those voters were large numbers of unionists.
Lord Duncan of Springbank
The noble Lord makes a point which he has made on many occasions—I do not doubt it. Earlier in his remarks, he said that we could do it on 9 May, but it would be better to do it on 5 May because the Council of Europe has a day that we could celebrate as well. He is now reverting back to 9 May, thereby reversing the points that he made in his earlier speech, and I will therefore set them aisde.
Importantly, we are recognising that in Northern Ireland—as anywhere else in the UK—flags are a sensitive issue. They are heavily regulated. Failure to do so has led not only to mistrust but to civil unrest. We must treat the reality in Northern Ireland with caution. This is why the adjustment to flying the flags on different days, or recognising—as we have not been able to do in Northern Ireland—the additional members of the Royal Family who are entitled to certain flag flying days, cannot happen without the express involvement of the Northern Ireland Assembly. It is absolutely appropriate, given how sensitive this matter is.
We are conflating two issues: Europe and Northern Ireland. When we look back to the period 1998 to 2000 in Northern Ireland, we begin to recognise that the flags issue was not only live, but dangerous. Therefore, we have always tried to move this forward inside Northern Ireland with permission. In this instance, we are making a correction and ensuring that the whole United Kingdom is treated in the same manner.
This brings me to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Bennachie. Guidance issued by one of the Whitehall departments is different because it is not bound by regulation, as these regulations apply to Northern Ireland. They are not needed here because they are not as controversial. There will be no restriction on the flying of the flag of Europe in many places at council level, wherever they wish to do so. The actual designation of official flag flying days is heavily regulated in Northern Ireland. We are only correcting for the reality that Europe Day will not be celebrated in Northern Ireland because it is the flag of membership of the EU and that will not be true thereafter.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie
I am not clear from the Minister’s initial remarks whether he is saying that the flag may be flown this year. First of all, if the longer departure date occurs, we will still be a member of the European Union on 5 or 9 May. I had the impression he said that, in any case, they could fly this year. If that is true, we can forget about this for another year anyway, by which time we can address all the other issues.
Lord Duncan of Springbank
I fear that the noble Lord has misunderstood my points. If I may, I will restate and re-emphasise them. I said that this regulation will come in only after we have exited the European Union. As the noble Lord will be aware, the point at which we exit the European Union is not yet clear. If that date is after 9 May, then the flag will fly this year because that regulation will not be amendable. This order amends it only after the point of exit. That is why for this year—I am being very frank—it is unclear whether the flag will fly as per the regulations within the amended 2000 order. Up until that point, I cannot give any greater clarity. We are doing this now because we are able to do it under the existing legislation in order to correct the situation following the European Union (Withdrawal) Act.
There may come a time when those in Northern Ireland wish to reflect on which flags they fly and when they wish to fly them—I have little doubt about that—but until the Assembly comes together to determine that, it will be unable to that matter forward. I note how important this matter has been and I state again, as carefully as I can, that Northern Ireland is the only part of this kingdom in which we have had to regulate the flying of flags. Nowhere else have we had to do so. Nowhere else at council level would we anticipate anything other than the flying of flags which people wish to fly, whether they be a union flag, a European Union flag or flags for other particular purposes. This will no doubt continue. Here we are talking about a very strict and specific piece of legislation which affects only Northern Ireland.
Lord Duncan of Springbank
The noble Lord, sitting as he does in a legislature, will appreciate the difference between making law and interpreting how you fly flags. At present, the difficulty he speaks of is not just a difficulty but an illegality: that we would not be able to move forward by adjusting the dates in Northern Ireland because of the restrictions of the law. What we might wish to do beyond that may be described as a difficulty, but what we seek to do here is to be legally correct in this instance. I am aware that the noble Lord has been passionate in his defence of the union flag and the union flag in Northern Ireland. I am also aware of how controversial that flag has been in Northern Ireland, for many different reasons.
The European Union flag we have flown on the ninth, which is flown across Europe, is primarily a flag of membership of the EU. We do not fly it in recognition of our membership of the Council of Europe because, most of the time—if I am being frank as a former Member of the European Parliament—people were rarely aware of the distinction between the Council of Europe and the European Council and the fact that one preceded the other by several decades. Even today, very few people marching on these streets will necessarily draw that distinction.
One of the great sins, I suspect, of this country—indeed, perhaps of our media—is how often we have been unable to explain in clear terms how the EU works, how our responsibilities within the Council of Europe work and the difference between the European Court of Justice and the European Court of Human Rights. We conflate these things constantly and I am fully aware that people right now will probably be unaware that the Council of Europe and in the EU, one heavily predating the other, have the same flag and, indeed, a shared anthem—and have had for some time, albeit that in the EU it is an unofficial anthem. All these things become conflated. The reality we face is simple: under the EU withdrawal agreement that we moved forward last year, this piece of legislation is uncontentious. It is important to stress that the European statutory instruments committee of this House said that, as a matter of policy, there is nothing contentious in the amendments proposed by this instrument.
Lord Duncan of Springbank
It may be, and the noble Lord may wish to bring that up with that committee. It may well be that he wishes, on this occasion, to determine what flags shall be flown in Northern Ireland, to take that decision and move this in a particular direction. I would counsel against that for many different reasons, not least that, as we have said before, this issue is much more sensitive in Northern Ireland and we must be careful as we look at it in Northern Ireland, particularly as it primarily concerns the union flag. I stress again that it affects the union flag more than the flag nobly described by the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Bennachie.
The challenges we face are straightforward. We may take this order and move it forward. The noble Lord may decide that is not something he wishes to do and he may wish to debate it further. If we are to debate this further, I suggest that we make sure that there are a number of Members in that debate who hail from Northern Ireland and are able to give their experience on the issue of flags because this is not primarily an issue about European flags but an issue about what flags represent in Northern Ireland. I suspect that he is not liking what I am saying but I fear I am going to have to move forward on that basis.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie
I seek guidance from the Chair. I have indicated that I am not happy and I do not wish this to be accepted. I know we cannot vote but I think it should be debated in the Chamber. We have a problem with the Chamber: I am sure that the Irish Members will turn up but we do not have a balanced representation in the Chamber. The second point I want to make is that Europe Day is about peace in Europe, not the European Union.
Lord Duncan of Springbank
I am very clear about what Europe Day represents, having been a Member of the European Parliament. I have spent a great deal of my life—10 years—in Europe representing the Scottish Parliament in Europe. I am fully aware of what Europe Day represents. I am also a Minister in the Northern Ireland Office, so I know what flags mean in Northern Ireland and I do not think we should be conflating the two in the manner the noble Lord suggests, but if he is minded to do so that is his prerogative and his right. I remind him only that this is a matter primarily about the union flag, not the European flag.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees
I must remind the Grand Committee that a single call of “Not content” has the effect of negativing the Motion. With that in mind, I put the Question again.
Northern Ireland (Regional Rates and Energy) (No. 2) Bill
Lord Bruce of Bennachie ExcerptsTuesday 19th March 2019
(5 years, 7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Northern Ireland (Regional Rates and Energy) Act 2019 View all Northern Ireland (Regional Rates and Energy) Act 2019 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 165-I Marshalled list for Committee (PDF) - (15 Mar 2019)
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, I want to speak very briefly to reiterate something that we said last week at Second Reading and touched on again earlier this evening in Committee. When there is no Northern Ireland Executive and no Assembly in session, it is quite wrong for Bills touching the lives of virtually every citizen in Northern Ireland to be disposed of so unnecessarily quickly in this House. I know my noble friend has some sympathy with this point of view—if I may say so, he was magnificent in Committee. I would be grateful if he discussed it yet again with the powers that be through the usual channels. I am delighted to have seen the most senior representative of the usual channels, take a place—not his place—while I have been speaking.
There is one other point I would like to make. At Second Reading last week, my noble friend said that he would try to come back when we were dealing with the Bill today with any further information on the plea that many of us have made for the Assembly to be called into being and on the desirability—which I think we all share—of having some mediator figure to convene the various parties in Northern Ireland. It is now well over two years since we had an Executive or an Assembly. People in Northern Ireland have been short-changed by their politicians.
It is also deeply unfortunate that, when the real stumbling block over Brexit has been the border, we have had no opportunity to hear what the politicians elected to the Assembly in Northern Ireland think or for them to put anything into the debate. Although none of us knows whether this would have made any significant difference, given the fact that 56% of Northern Ireland voted to remain in the European Union and none of the elected representatives in the Westminster Parliament take that view, it would have been an opportunity that might just conceivably have produced some interesting ideas. So for every possible reason—and I am glad to see the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, nodding assent—I hope, as we all do, that we have an Assembly and Executive in being before long; but that we devote more time in this Chamber, where so much responsibility does and should lie, in the absence of a devolved Administration. I look forward to my noble friend’s response in due course.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)
My Lords, like other Members, I was somewhat compromised by the early business and not able to be here in time for the start of it. I do not wish to repeat the debate. I want to show appreciation for the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Empey; the fact I was not able to speak to it was for no reason other than that, although I supported it, I wanted to observe the courtesies of the House—which I noticed not every other noble Lord did.
In those circumstances, I want to say two or three things. First, this Bill presents this Chamber with a choice between a rock and a hard place. Most of us are, I think, very unhappy about the fact that rates and the renewable heat incentive scheme were lumped together in the Bill. While the Minister did not acknowledge that that was a tactic, he did say it was something he did not approve of and hoped would not happen again.
My second concern is that we were faced with the situation—it probably determined why the noble Lord, Lord Empey, withdrew his amendment—that if we passed the amendment, there was a danger people would receive no payment on 1 April, which is a consideration. At this stage, it is important to acknowledge that the Minister has clearly presented a constructive compromise—but, as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, pointed out, one he does not have the authority to guarantee. The House has accepted that in good faith but with real concerns as to where it might lead us. Had we supported the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Empey, the consequences might have been difficult.
Like most other Members, I have received emails from a number of different businesses across Northern Ireland—not all of them farmers—expressing their angst and concern. I have engaged with them, responded to the emails and forwarded them all to the Minister. I do not need to repeat it, but we need to acknowledge that we are passing a Bill that effectively—how can I put this?—gives authority to the denial of ministerial responsibility for giving guarantees and assurances on which people relied and on which they have been betrayed. I am not comfortable with giving a Bill that does that a Third Reading, and I do not think your Lordships should be either.
The thought that has occurred to me throughout the whole process around the renewable heat incentive scheme is this: the 12% return was known from the beginning, as the Minister acknowledged. I find it difficult, if not impossible, to believe that on two separate occasions the Northern Ireland Executive introduced tariffs which could not conceivably have come close to representing a 12% return on the investment and which were, as anybody providing any objective analysis would very quickly have observed, in breach. That raises the most fundamental questions of propriety, honesty and integrity, of both politicians and, I am afraid, civil servants too. My instincts, however, are that civil servants did not understand what they should have, but I do not think that lets them off the hook.
People will look for a price to be paid, and the two prices to be paid are these. First, will the people who genuinely relied on this and suffered get compensation? Secondly, in the process of doing that, are we in danger of compensating people who took advantage of the system and who could get an extra twist out of it? That, I suggest to the Minister, is something that we need to avoid.
Having said all that, we have no choice but to pass this Bill tonight. However, we should record that it is being passed under duress, at speed, without adequate consultation and with consequences to follow both in the courts and in the political arena that will probably haunt Northern Ireland for many years to come.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)
My Lords, perhaps I may touch upon the remarks of my noble friend Lord Cormack. My team will reach out to him very shortly on the question of the Assembly and what we might well be able to do to go forward. There is no doubt that there are lost voices in Northern Ireland. Perhaps now more than ever those voices would have been appreciated and might well have been instructive, and they must be heard. I will return to my noble friend in the next few days, I hope, but certainly very soon.
The noble Lord, Lord Bruce, and my noble friend Lord Cormack talked about the notion of being bounced into this situation. In the absence of a Northern Ireland Executive, we must ensure adequate scrutiny in this place and the other place of issues that have a significant impact on the lives and livelihoods of the people of Northern Ireland. Of that, there is no doubt. We must ensure that we, the Government, do better at allowing for that scrutiny and at allowing time for questions to be asked. I fully appreciate that. I accept every point that has been made. I will take them away and do all that I can to change the way in which we do business, which is inadequate for this moment and for the times that we are in.
As the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, pointed out, we are between a rock and a hard place—between a deadline and a necessity. We are between the hardships that we have witnessed through the emails and letters that we have received, and the reality of the challenge of an impending grandfather clause that would place everyone else who is in that situation in a far worse predicament. Therefore, I accept again that this is ill timed.
The noble Lord, Lord Bruce, is right to point out that I cannot give a guarantee on behalf of the Northern Ireland Executive—I am not equipped to do so, constitutionally speaking—but I could not in good faith return to this House if I were not able to live up to the statement that I have made today. I hope that noble Lords will accept that statement and the intent with which it has been given. I hope they will recognise that it has been given on my word of honour, and I will not come back here unless we can live up to the statements that I have made.
Today, as in every situation when we look at Northern Ireland, we have to tread as carefully as we can. On one hand, we are bound by state aid rules, which place upon us a responsibility. On the other, we are bound by the realities faced by many individuals who have written to us about the hardship they are experiencing. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, who is now in his correct place, will recognise that his efforts and labours on behalf of those individuals have been well landed and well understood. I also hope that, on the basis of the withdrawal of his amendment and my promissory note about what we can do, we will be able to move forward to achieve that fairness, equity and, ultimately, justice.
Northern Ireland: Devolved Government
Lord Bruce of Bennachie Excerpts(5 years, 7 months ago)
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Lord Duncan of Springbank
I am unaware of any Stormont lock and cannot comment upon that. On the question of where we stand as a country, the constitution must be respected, as must devolution. That is why we have sought to restore devolved government in Northern Ireland by every means possible over the past period. Without it, direct rule from here would be a terrible retrograde step.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)
My Lords, does the Minister not acknowledge that the longer this stalemate goes on, the more polarised politics in Northern Ireland becomes and the more dangerous the situation is? Will he not follow up things he has suggested before, including making the Assembly active while positive measures are taken to restore the Executive, rather than determining to get an Executive before the Assembly comes together, so that politicians at least meet each other?
Lord Duncan of Springbank
The noble Lord is correct: polarisation is a great risk in Northern Ireland. As we have said before, we are making every endeavour to restore the Assembly and are exploring every possible way. On my previous time at the Dispatch Box, I said that I would sit down with noble Lords who have an interest, hopefully to take this matter forward.
Northern Ireland (Regional Rates and Energy) (No. 2) Bill
Lord Bruce of Bennachie ExcerptsTuesday 12th March 2019
(5 years, 7 months ago)
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Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)
My Lords, noble Lords will of course understand why, as he said, the Minister has made a liar of himself and had to come back to the House. It is fair to say that it is not the Minister who has made a liar of himself but the circumstances in which we find ourselves. But to be asked to pass these two Bills—and certainly the budget Bill—at Second Reading, through all their stages, only a week or so after the documentation became available and where the detailed publication, as he says, is very hefty indeed, falls way below what I would regard as any acceptable level of scrutiny. It starts to cause real concern as to who is checking what is going on with respect to the money allocated to Northern Ireland.
Will the Minister consider whether steps could be taken to provide some comfort—and more than that, oversight? For example, the Public Accounts Committee could have a specific role to look at the follow-through from what we have voted. I do not believe that the Select Committee in the Commons has the resources to do that. It was not set up for those purposes; indeed, the second Bill may in any case be the subject of an inquiry being conducted by the House of Commons committee. It will probably have its hands full. I say that to the Minister in all seriousness; many of us are concerned that £20 billion is being voted on for Northern Ireland. We understand that it is necessary, but we have no clear, detailed oversight as to how that will be spent and whether it will be spent properly. Given the problem of the renewable heating scandal, we have every reason to be concerned about scrutiny.
That is my first point. The second concerns more specific questions on issues that do not appear in the budget, which people might have hoped to see: for example, the Hart inquiry into historical institutional abuse, which has cross-party support, and which people had hoped would make progress. I would be grateful if the Minister could say something about that. There is also the issue of pensions for severely disabled victims. The last time this was raised, the Minister said that he had asked for a report from the Victims Commissioner. Can he give us some feedback on whether that report has been received? Let us bear in mind that these are elderly and sick people who, sadly, are dying, and need early action rather than considered delay.
A broader point is that there are issues not in the budget for which there appear to be all-party consensus. Might it be possible in the circumstances to see whether other decisions could be taken? When I raised this matter with officials they said that they could in principle but, before committing to something, one has to identify where the money is coming from or what else is being cut. I raise as an example—as it has been raised with me—the medical school at the McGill campus in Derry, which people had hoped would be progressing by now. The site and buildings are available, but students are leaving Northern Ireland to go to other universities, mostly in Scotland. As the Minister will know, the problem when students go outside of Northern Ireland for training, is that very often they do not come back. There is a need for places within the Province.
On the rates Bill, we accept that a simple decision has been taken to increase the business rates by inflation and the domestic rates by 3% plus inflation. Most of us recognise that as a fairly understandable formula and I suspect most people will accept it. Regarding the RHI, it is clear that, since the scheme was set up, the tariff has been set on two separate occasions at a value well outside either value for money or state aid criteria. This has led to the situation in which we now find ourselves. I am sure that all Members engaged in this debate will have received similar emails to the ones that I am receiving, from people who fear they will be substantially damaged and, indeed, distressed by the proposed cap. We will debate that in detail next week; I just make the point that it needs to be determined.
The fact nevertheless is that the Minister and officials encouraged people to take up high borrowing. The banks participated in that encouragement, relying on a comfort letter from the Minister and the support of officials. Understandably, people are saying, “We took decisions in good faith on the basis of 20-year guarantees from government Ministers, which are now being reversed”. Naturally they feel angry. Having said that, I suspect some people were quite fly at the beginning, saw a good deal coming down the track and took advantage of it. This raises a second question: why were these deals not cross-checked in any way? Why were there not investigations to ensure that they were compliant with both the spirit and the letter of the scheme? That seems a legitimate concern.
I have two final points to raise. The first is one that officials explained to us but it would be helpful if the Minister could do the same: how does the Northern Ireland scheme differ from those on mainland GB? Certainly, all the letters and emails that I have received express concern that people in Northern Ireland feel disadvantaged compared with those in GB. I know there are reasons for it, but it would be good to have them put the record. The second point relates to the buy-out scheme, which the Government are proposing to introduce. On the face of it, it could resolve the problems for some people by enabling them to get a capital sum that could discharge their liabilities. But, given that the circumstances of different contracts are variable, there may well be people for whom that buy-out is not appropriate; I mean people who have acted in good faith and not unreasonably. The question is whether the Government may at some point have to consider some kind of distress help for genuine cases, although I appreciate that how you establish what is a genuine case might be quite difficult.
With these remarks, my message to the Minister is that I understand the reason this has been brought forward and I recognise that services in Northern Ireland have to be maintained, but I hope he will agree that quite a lot of questions need to be answered.
Northern Ireland (Ministerial Appointment Functions) Regulations 2019
Lord Bruce of Bennachie Excerpts(5 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Lexden (Con)
My Lords, I operate in this House on one principle above all: to agree with everything that my noble friend Lord Empey says. I am happy to adhere to that principle again today.
I have three specific points that I want to raise on this instrument. First, it reaches us just days before a new Northern Ireland Commissioner for Children and Young People needs to be appointed. Why was the instrument not brought forward earlier? Secondly, the instrument specifies, as my noble friend has said, six appointments deemed to be critically important. What criteria were used to establish which appointments are critical and which are not? My third and final point follows from that and concerns offices not deemed to be of critical importance. What is to happen to them? Are they to remain vacant when their current holders reach the end of their term, pending the restoration of devolution, which today seems but a distant hope?
Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)
I think that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, was concerned with sins of omission rather than commission in terms of the content of the statutory instrument. He raises the point that effectively we are going on and on in this limbo of democratic nihilism, if I can call it that, having to institute ad hoc measures as and when necessary to fill the gap in the absence of real political initiatives. I presume that the Minister will be back here in less than five weeks, when the first term of the 2018 Act expires, because it is difficult at the moment to see that we are going to be in a position to restore the Assembly by the end of March—I do not believe that anybody would think that at all likely. So the question that arises is: what practical steps are the Government going to take to ensure that we do not get to the end of March, let alone the end of August, without having got to a position where functioning decision-making by the elected representatives of the people of Northern Ireland can return? I am sure that the Minister does not find it comfortable to come to the House and say, “Please allow me the right to nominate these particular posts”. However, perhaps he could say something about Friday’s meeting, which I gather lasted 90 minutes. I am not aware that any specific proposals were on the table, which has not been well received.
I hope, from the Minister’s point of view, that the Government have started to think about what they can do to break the deadlock. The Minister will not be surprised to hear me say that a Secretary of State in a UK Government who are propped up by a hard-line unionist party in Northern Ireland is likely to find the perception of her office somewhat compromised in Northern Ireland. I repeat what my colleagues have said on numerous occasions: is it not time to find some independent authority that might bring parties together and start to identify what it would take to break the deadlock and get things back to normal?
Therefore, my specific questions on this statutory instrument—somewhat along the lines of what the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, said—are, first, what were the criteria that made these urgent, and what other appointments are coming down the track that may require us to be back here in the very near future? Secondly, much more to the point, what assurances can we have that there is any reasonable momentum to try to ensure that we get the political process back, or will we have either to impose direct rule—which I think many of us would regard as a disastrous failure—or institute new elections? Nobody is particularly happy about that either, but it may be the only way to unlock the democratic logjam.
The Minister is always entirely and highly constructive, conciliatory and thoughtful—if I may say so, I would rather he was in charge of the talks; if that was the style we might make more progress. It is important to try to find out what the real obstacles are, not the synthetic ones that have been put up, and how we can build, through trust, a means of getting these decisions away from this Parliament and back to the Assembly, where they belong.
Lord Dubs (Lab)
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Empey, on his consistency on the issue he has raised and on the fact that he is completely right—a pretty powerful combination. Are the Government cherry picking what they are seeking to do? I know that “cherry picking” is now a fashionable expression, but it seems that the Government are cherry picking appointments. What about other appointments? Why have these ones been selected—is there a particular reason for it? Also, what about the functions to be carried out by these appointments? Are there any constraints on how these individuals can carry out their functions, given that there are serious constraints on how government departments in Northern Ireland can carry out their functions?
The whole position seems extremely illogical. We need an indication of progress—I endorse the comments that have been made. Surely the time has come, not just for the Secretary of State to say that she is doing her best—I am sure she is—and for the Minister to say that he is sure that the Secretary of State is doing her best, but to have a new initiative on knocking heads together and bringing the parties together. Surely an impartial umpire/facilitator is needed. Let us get on with making that appointment, then we can have some progress.
Lord Duncan of Springbank
My Lords, as with other debates on Northern Ireland, this is one of two halves. I will focus on the first half, which concerns the instrument itself and some elements of it, and then move on to the wider issues which have been raised.
My noble friend Lord Lexden asked a number of questions to which I will attempt to provide answers. The first thing to emphasise is that the appointments have been identified by the Northern Ireland Civil Service. The principal criterion for that identification was obviously timing. My noble friend is absolutely right to say that this should have been brought before the House earlier, but we have to bring all the measures together. I accept my noble friend’s first point and apologise to him: they should have come forward earlier.
The second point concerns when the broad functioning elements of the boards become, if you like, out of kilter with the membership. There needs to be a recognition of the balance of the members on the individual boards themselves. A number of the appointed chairs and vice-chairs have reached the end of their terms, which in itself creates the need to move forward. Some have indicated their intention to accept an extension, and that is the likely outcome. However, again, the key aspect has been identified by the Northern Ireland Civil Service, not by Ministers in the Northern Ireland Office. It is our intention to do so only as far as the legislation allows, in order to move the situation forward in that regard, following the detailed advice we have received. There may be other information I can provide and if so I will make sure that it is conveyed to my noble friend directly and shared more widely. I have no desire to keep secrets on this issue.
My noble friend is also correct to say that there will be others unless we resolve this matter. In answer to the question, “Which others?”, it will be all the others, frankly, unless we can get this moving. Every appointment will be done in this way until we actually have a functioning Executive. I am not trying to exaggerate the case or make it seem worse than it is, but that is the reality of where we are. Until there is an Executive, this legislation will allow us to move forward with each appointment that is required. While it is true to say that we may think that some are more important than others, all of them are important to the good functioning of governance in Northern Ireland, be it those I have iterated today or those that will be need to be iterated in the future, should we not make progress on an Executive. Perhaps that is a rather dispiriting answer, but it is the correct one.
Before I turn to the broader elements, I should say that I welcome the support of the House for the instrument, which is a necessary one and will help in the functioning of these bodies. I was anticipating a broad discussion, so perhaps I may say this. On Friday of last week all the parties gathered together in Northern Ireland. It was the first time that that had happened in more than a year and it was an attempt to move things forward in a fashion which would ultimately lead to the creation of a sustainable Executive. Noble Lords may have read about the outcome of that meeting. It was not wholly supported by the Sinn Féin party, which has made its points very clear in the newspapers, which your Lordships are more than at liberty to read. I was saddened to read those reports but they are a matter of public awareness. That is not good and there is no point in pretending otherwise.
The Northern Ireland Office had hoped that, using this, we would be able to see the steps which could be taken to bring about the very things that the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, has put to us. He mentioned the notion of an independent facilitator. Like my noble friend Lord Cormack, I do not like the term either, but I accept that it is one we are using at the moment. I also recognise the need to think outside the traditional, such as, “Let us always meet in the same office space”; rather, we should be thinking of new places. I had hoped that out of these gatherings a clear timetable would emerge to bring about those very things, and to be able to stand before noble Lords today repeating a Statement from the other place on what we all hoped would happen. We did not make the progress we had hoped for, and for that I am sad and sorry. That does not mean that we stop or that this is the end of the journey, but it has not led to the breakthrough I hoped to see. That is a simple statement of fact.
None the less, we cannot in good conscience fail to address the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Empey. He is correct to say that noble Lords will be seeing a bit more of me over the next few weeks, I am afraid, because I will be bringing forward further legislation. Not the least will be the Northern Ireland Budget, and I do not doubt that the noble Lord will make the points that need to be made on the health service, the wider education service and so on.
You might recall that this time last year, when I spoke of that Budget, I said it was getting ever more difficult to plot the trajectory from the point of the outgoing Executive and their spending ambitions to where we are now. It is getting considerably harder. Last year I said that that would be the last time I would make that point, and events have made a liar of me: it was not the last time. I hope the one coming will be the last time, but the noble Lord rightly raises his eyebrows, and I take that on board. There is also the issue of the five-month extension window, anticipated in the Act of last year, within which we can look at delivering the Executive. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, is quite correct that that will necessarily have to be brought forward in the next few weeks as well. He is right to flag these things up.
I struggle to find new ways to tell noble Lords the same thing. I do not wish to sound complacent as I do so, but finding new ways to say this is proving difficult. Ultimately, the only way we will be able to move this forward is for the parties themselves to recognise the need for progress. Until that happens, the Government themselves will be unable to create the “eureka” moment. It is not wholly in their gift.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie
The Minister is making a powerful and practical point, but why cannot the Government proceed with some kind of independent mediator? Exactly as others have said, the perception of a Government who are parti pris does not help and makes it much easier for Sinn Féin to do and say the things it does. I am not naive—I am not saying that it would not say that to an independent mediator—but why are the Government finding it so difficult to move forward on that?
Lord Duncan of Springbank
The noble Lord is right to raise that point. There are only so many times I can talk about the box metaphor and thinking outside it before noble Lords become tired of that. We had hoped, through those discussions last week, to get some coherent agreement on moving things forward on that basis, and we were not able to do so. We now have to think afresh. We have to think whether that can be done without the support of all the parties involved. These things need to be thought through again. I am not trying to postpone answering the noble Lord’s question, but I am aware that we have not been able to resolve it in the fashion I would like. That remains at the heart of the problem.
Northern Ireland: Devolution
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Lord Duncan of Springbank
The noble Lord makes valid points, as would be expected from someone of his experience. He is correct to use the word “catastrophe” in his description of the situation in Northern Ireland. The voices of that Province have been silenced during this important time, not least in the Brexit process but elsewhere as well. He asked the important question of whether there is a plan. Yes, there is. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has been working to bring together all parties, representing all parts of the community. As we have said in the past, we have not taken off the table any suggestion of an independent chair to facilitate what I hope will be ongoing discussions. During that period which we have opened up to deliver a functioning Executive—which, noble Lords will recall, closes on 23 March—we hope to make progress.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)
My Lords, the absence of the Assembly in Northern Ireland has disastrously aggravated the polarisation of politics in the Province, as Assembly Members have simply retreated to their own communities and disengaged from the political process. Does the Minister recognise that there is now a requirement on the UK Government to take a positive initiative to try to bring people back into the political process—for example, by reconvening the scrutiny committees and by appointing an independent mediator who can bring the parties together to find a solution—and in the process perhaps releasing the Government from their captivity by one minority party in Northern Ireland?
Lord Duncan of Springbank
I assure the noble Lord that we are not held captive by any party in Northern Ireland.
Northern Ireland: Devolved Government
Lord Bruce of Bennachie Excerpts(5 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Duncan of Springbank
The noble Lord has made that point as indeed have many others on that Bench. We are actively considering a facilitator to bring about greater communication between the parties, and we hope that that will lead to the breakthrough that we need.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)
My Lords, there is a real possibility now that Brexit may be extended well beyond the deadline in legislation for restoring the Assembly in Northern Ireland. In those circumstances, in accordance with what the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, just said, is it not time that the Government appointed a mediator to get the parties together to propose interim solutions such as re-establishing the scrutiny committees and to stop allowing the parties to blame each other for their total abdication of responsibility?
Lord Duncan of Springbank
As the House has heard already, the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, made it very clear that we will not extend this particular process at all. That is not the intention of the Government. However, we need to recognise that, irrespective of Brexit, this is about good governance in Northern Ireland, and there is no good governance in Northern Ireland today. We cannot solely rely on a Civil Service to deliver what elective representatives should do. We recognise that for what it is. We are now in the twilight of that particular opportunity: it will darken, and we will move on.