The Process for Triggering Article 50

Debate between Lord Bridges of Headley and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Tuesday 24th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I thank the noble and right reverend Lord for that contribution. I would be happy to have a long debate about the role of referenda in our constitution. We had such a debate when the referendum Bill was passing through this House and the other place. As I said in the Statement, it was a choice that the representatives of the people made to give this choice to the British people. We could start pinging quotations from Burke between us. I could quote back to him from what I seem to remember was a 1911 lecture by Dicey in which he said that the role of referenda trumped the role of party and extolled its virtues, but maybe we could leave that for another day.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

The leave campaign spent a lot of time emphasising the importance of parliamentary sovereignty. We fought a civil war 360 years ago about parliamentary sovereignty versus the royal prerogative and, as the Government know, the parliamentary side won. We fought two wars in the 20th century during which Parliament went on sitting and scrutinising the Government and debating government policy in the way they conducted the war. We defended parliamentary democracy. I do not see how this Government can say that they cannot fully engage Parliament and inform Parliament on something that is not as dreadful as a war but has major implications for the economy, the political system, the foreign policy and the security of this country to carry Parliament with them, because we are a parliamentary democracy.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I heed some of the points that the noble Lord is making, but I simply point out the process that was gone through. There was a general election in which the Conservative Party promised to hold a referendum. Then this House and the other place passed the legislation to give that choice to the British people. The British people then made the decision. Now we will have a series of votes: one on the triggering of Article 50; another on the great repeal Bill to repeal the ECA; others will follow on both secondary and primary legislation—I suspect that we will be here for a number of hours debating those, to say the least. After that, at the end of the process, as the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said, there will be a vote on the treaty.

That is how we will continue to engage Parliament. It is a substantial process. Let me repeat a point that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union has made many times. It would be completely unacceptable for the European Parliament to get more information than this House and the other place. Therefore, we will endeavour to ensure that this House gets as much information as the European Parliament.

A New Partnership with the EU

Debate between Lord Bridges of Headley and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Tuesday 17th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, I know it might be very tempting to the noble Lord, but I am sorry to say that I am not going to start hypothecating on those kinds of issues, simply because it is our intent to enter these negotiations to get a successful outcome.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister confirms that getting out completely from underneath the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice is one of our fundamental objectives. I am very sorry that the Government have taken over this King Charles’s head from the Bruges Group and Sir William Cash, but clearly that is what has happened. I ask the noble Lord two questions. Given that the equivalent of Sir William Cash and the Bruges Group in the United States believe that the superiority of American common law—all Anglo-Saxon law to Roman law—is such that the United States cannot accept the supremacy of any international law or international court, would it be the Government’s intention that we should also challenge, for example, the right of WTO arbitration to override the British Parliament? How far do we wish to go in withdrawing from the whole network of international law, of which European law is part? My second, related question is: how do we intend to continue to co-operate on international security, sharing of data and intelligence, data protection et cetera with other European Union countries, as the Prime Minister has clearly said she wants to do, unless the European Court or some other court manages to maintain a degree of jurisdiction and supervision over that area?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

As usual, the noble Lord asks some very good, forensic questions. On the second question, sharing data will be a matter for negotiation. Here we should look at the outcome we wish to achieve. As I said in the Statement, we wish to ensure we have arrangements with our European partners that continue to deliver the same level of security and stability we have now. That must be absolutely in our interest, given the criminal and terrorist threats we face. How we achieve that, given our position on the ECJ, will be a matter for negotiation. The noble Lord is right to highlight that. On the WTO jurisdiction, I have no knowledge that there is any wish by the Government to start unravelling that or any other jurisdictional court.

Brexit: Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010

Debate between Lord Bridges of Headley and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Tuesday 13th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister has said several times that we are leaving the European Union, not leaving Europe. Will the Minister explain how we make sure that, in leaving Europe, we maintain the close relations with the other members of the EU which will be necessary after we have left?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

The noble Lord makes a good point about our wish to retain the ability to co-operate where there are matters of mutual self-interest and national interest, as we have said all along. I am sure that this will be set out in the weeks and months ahead.

Brexit: Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010

Debate between Lord Bridges of Headley and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Thursday 8th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government at what stage or stages of the European Union exit negotiations the requirements of Part 2 of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010 will be fulfilled.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Bridges of Headley) (Con)]

My Lords, the precise timing, terms and means by which we leave the European Union will be determined by the negotiations that follow the triggering of Article 50. We will observe in full all relevant legal and constitutional obligations that apply.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, as the Minister recognised, we are now in some confusion over sovereignty—Bernard Jenkin and others suggest that we can abrogate the limits on external sovereignty and ignore international law. The Minister is too young to remember Margaret Thatcher’s remarks against moving from parliamentary to popular sovereignty, but we are clearly moving away a little. The Government have suggested that we can move towards exerting Article 50 by prerogative sovereignty. Executive sovereignty and popular sovereignty take us a long way away from parliamentary sovereignty, which the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act was intended to strengthen. Can we have a reassurance from the Government that the rules of that Act will be followed very closely as the Government move towards treaty renegotiation?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I think I got that question, and I thank the noble Lord for it. The Government are very clear about the obligations of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010, which states clearly that both Houses of Parliament have a role in approving treaties as set out in the Act. As I said in my first statement, we will observe in full all relevant legal and constitutional obligations that apply.

Exiting the European Union

Debate between Lord Bridges of Headley and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Monday 5th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

It pains me to disagree with my noble friend, for he is a friend—at least, I hope he is. I am sorry to say that, as the Prime Minister has made clear on many occasions, we intend to see Brexit through. As I said, it was the biggest ever vote as regards the mandate we have for this, the Conservative manifesto pledged to respect the outcome of the referendum, and Parliament voted for the referendum by a margin of six to one. That is the current position, and I am sorry to say that it will not change.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, we wish the noble Lord luck in his new post, and I am sure everyone in this House will accept the outcome of the referendum, although the idea that it was a clear decision seems ludicrous to many of us. Our job as the House of Lords is to question in detail the Government’s proposals as they are put to us, and I am sure we will do that. The Government’s job will be to take account of the national interest as well as how they interpret the outcome of the referendum. Can the Government, as an early task, set out what they regard as the relationship between the domestic regulatory framework and changing international regulatory frameworks? The single market was, after all, a Thatcherite achievement. Mrs Thatcher pressed for common regulatory frameworks across Europe as an improvement on the previous situation. As the noble Lord, Lord Howell, said, now we have to adapt it to the digital world and so on, but some of the Minister’s colleagues—Liam Fox, for example —appear to think that we are still in a 19th-century free-trade world in which tariffs are all that matter. It might help to clear the air if the importance of regulatory frameworks, domestic, European and global, were spelled out by the Government as they set out how they will go ahead.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I heed what the noble Lord says; he and I have spoken about these points recently. I completely understand the complexity—and he touches on just part of one area of complexity here. We are looking at that, and I would like to talk to the noble Lord about that in person. As regards when we set that out, as I say, I am not in a position to go into further detail at this precise juncture.

Constitutional Convention Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Bridges of Headley and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Friday 11th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, I do not think it will surprise noble Lords to hear, at 12.50 pm on a grey Friday, that the Government do not support a written constitution. I agree much more with the noble Lord, Lord Kerr. He spoke very eloquently about the need for flexibility. Of course, as noble Lords will know, this country did once try a written constitution—in 1653, if memory serves me right. It lasted for about four years with the Instrument of Government. It was not a particularly happy time in our nation’s history and we have survived quite well without one for getting on for 400 years. As the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, says, we have flexibility borne out of various parts of our legislative past—the Magna Carta, the Bill of Rights, the Act of Settlement and the Great Reform Act. Parliament has been adding to that canon, and advancing and evolving the constitution for centuries. That is a fundamental part of our polity.

On the specific clause, as my noble friend Lord Forsyth made clear, this is adding even more to the work of the superhuman convention, manned by the world’s constitutional experts, who will be working frantically to get it all done. I would just point out that were this Bill to be passed, there is no detail on the scope or content of the written constitution. As this short debate has highlighted, we are not entirely clear what would be included and what would not—maybe the entire process of the convention itself. Furthermore, it is not entirely clear that the Secretary of State would be able to make any further provision or provide any guidance on this constitution when it was presented, which was a point made so eloquently by my noble friend earlier. The convention would have superhuman powers not only in the sense of its ability to come up with solutions, but in the effect that it would have. Therefore, I fear that the amendment would not enhance the Bill but make it even less feasible.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I would just reflect on how solid is our base and how flexible is our constitution. From what I have been reading and hearing about the Magna Carta this year, I understand that two clauses of it are still in force and 75 are no longer in force. If one reads the Bill of Rights carefully, there is a very substantial anti-Catholic element, some of which is actually still in force, but has been weakened. The things that we refer back to as the foundations of our constitution are in many ways deeply inappropriate and we get by by ignoring them.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I heed what the noble Lord so rightly draws out. My point would be that these are the foundation stones on parts of which we have been building over the centuries.

House of Commons: Ministers

Debate between Lord Bridges of Headley and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Monday 30th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to reduce the number of Ministers in the House of Commons proportionately to the intended reduction in the overall number of members in order to avoid any increase in executive influence over the elected House.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Lord Bridges of Headley) (Con)]

My Lords, we have acknowledged the link between the size of the House of Commons and the size of the Executive, both in this House and in the other place, and we will continue to keep the number of Ministers under review as the consequences of the forthcoming boundary reforms are delivered and begin to take effect.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that there is no other first Chamber in a democratic Parliament in the western world which has as high a proportion of people caught up in government as in our House of Commons? Would he also agree that that is part of the cause of tension between the two Houses, and the Commons as a result does not do its work of scrutinising and holding the Government to account as vigorously as a democratic Parliament ought to do and that, as we reduce the number of MPs, it is vital that we reduce the number of Ministers in the Commons as well?

Electoral Registration and Administration Act 2013 (Transitional Provisions) Order 2015

Debate between Lord Bridges of Headley and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Tuesday 27th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

The noble Lord has quoted the Electoral Commission several times. As a matter of process, the opinion of the Electoral Commission is extremely important. As a member of the coalition Government, my clear understanding was that we had agreed that we would complete the process by December 2016 unless there was—as the Electoral Commission has confirmed there is—compelling evidence that it was not necessary to go that far. The Electoral Commission has said, very clearly, that it thinks we are mistaken in what we are doing. Is the Minister saying that the Government consider the commission not to be relevant in this crucial area, although he is using it to support his argument in other areas? Why do the Government not regard the Electoral Commission’s argument? I repeat that this is a matter of the rules of politics, which have to be seen as fair.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I completely agree with the noble Lord that the rules of politics must be seen to be fair, which is why we are taking this action today. We believe that it is wrong to have so many inaccurate ghost entries on this register and that the facts have changed, in that by December these four out of 100 voters will have been contacted at least nine times. I will go on.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

No—I am absolutely clear. We need to make sure that we take every step possible to cut down on electoral fraud. Therefore, after such an effort to contact the ghost entries, which puts pestering PPI calls in the shade, and given these facts, the Government believe that the time has come to remove these entries from the register.

I will repeat a crucial point which I made at the start. Even if someone is removed inadvertently from the register, he or she has not lost the right to vote, as some would have it. Indeed, as I have said before, we want more people to register. A number of noble Lords, such as the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, have highlighted the number of those who are not on the register already. I agree—they are right—there are too many of them, and we need to encourage them to register, as I said at the start. Individual electoral registration will help them do that. It is now easier to register than ever before and takes minutes to do online: 460,000 applications were made on the registration deadline for the general election alone—that is five applications a second.

As the Minister for Constitutional Reform said in his speech last week, the approach to registration needs to be updated and modernised, building on the success of online registration. This will help to meet the challenges of finding and registering those currently missing from the register and build on the excellent work that was done under the coalition.

The key point is this: the need to encourage voter registration has nothing to do with removing the inaccurate carry-forward entries on the register. As I just said, if a person is not on the register already, they obviously cannot be affected when these ghost entries are removed from the register. As I said at the start, the answer to underregistered groups, such as young people or expatriates, is not to stuff the electoral roll, and potentially the ballot boxes, with the names of people who do not exist but, instead, to encourage more people to vote.

A number of your Lordships referred to the boundary review, which, as your Lordships will know, begins its work early in the new year, fulfilling the Conservative Party’s manifesto commitment to cut the number of MPs and make votes of more equal value. If we are to create constituencies of equal size, the electoral registers used for the boundary review must be accurate across the UK. Otherwise, areas with large numbers of carry-forwards will get more MPs than those with small numbers.

This should not be a partisan point, despite what the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, said. Areas with high carry-forwards include Conservative authorities such as Windsor and Maidenhead, and Kensington and Chelsea. It is right that overregistration be tackled in these areas. Equally, Labour councils such as Barrow, Cardiff and Hartlepool have below average numbers of carry-forwards. Surely it cannot be right that we leave 17,000 carry-forwards on the register in Kensington and Chelsea, according to May’s figures, while there are just 558 in Hartlepool. If we allow this to happen, it will distort the distribution of seats, hitting, in particular, Wales and Northern Ireland, where there are no carry-forwards as they already have individual electoral registration. A full transition to the new system will ensure fairness—something we all should want.

As we enter a year of elections, the Government believe that we should not retain these ghost entries on the register, making it inaccurate and perhaps making elections open to fraud. As has been said, we are not alone in thinking this. As my noble friends Lord Lexden and Lord Hayward said, the Association of Electoral Administrators supports ending the transition this year for primarily this reason, saying that:

“It is crucial to have the most accurate register possible”.

All democracies depend on a weighing up of interests and a careful consideration of the facts. This is no less true of our electoral system. As the noble Lord, Lord Alton, said, we must take an approach that strikes the right balance between safeguarding the integrity of the register and ensuring that the electors registered to vote for the elections next May are accurate. The Government believe that we are past the tipping point. Remember, 96 out of every 100 electors have successfully registered on the new system. By December, at least nine attempts will have been made to contact those entries that were carried forward. The chance of a large number of the remaining carry-forward entries being eligible to register to vote is vanishingly small. No one is losing the right to vote and registering is easier than ever before. This is why the Government oppose the Motions today.

Although I heed the words of the noble Lord, Lord Alton, I would like to echo the words of my noble friend Lord Cormack. Having broken a convention yesterday by failing to respect the primacy of the other place, the House supporting these Motions would defeat a statutory instrument, not on the grounds that it has been improperly made but because the noble Lords who tabled them disagree with it. It is up to your Lordships to make your decision clear, but it would be killing a statutory instrument—something this House has done only five times since World War II. With a further fatal Motion on the Order Paper for later today, the House is being invited to withhold its approval to three statutory instruments in two days; doing in two days what this House did in the 13 years between 1997 and 2010.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

The House will be doing so partly because the Electoral Commission has advised us to do so. That is the question the noble Lord has not answered.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

As the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said, the Electoral Commission is an independent body but we are not bound to observe it. As I have set out very, very clearly, we believe that we have a strong case for proceeding as we have.

Although this House is unelected, I believe that we should be doing our utmost to protect the integrity and accuracy of our electoral system. That is the duty we have to voters. We believe that it is time to finish the transition to individual electoral registration in December 2015 so that we can all be confident in our electoral register.

Government Digital Service

Debate between Lord Bridges of Headley and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Tuesday 13th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what changes in the Government Digital Service will follow from projected cuts in its budget and the departure of senior staff.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Lord Bridges of Headley) (Con)]

My Lords, the future budget for the Government Digital Service will be determined in the spending review. The Government are 100% committed to the digital strategy set out in the previous Parliament and to the vision of government as a platform, so we can solve digital challenges once on behalf of all government. We will continue to strengthen the team in GDS and capability across government so as to transform the public delivery of services, making life easier for the citizen and cheaper for the taxpayer.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that this was a Conservative initiative—from the noble Lord, Lord Maude—in the last coalition Government, which had active Liberal Democrat support and much wider support from those in the technological community outside, and that it has been so successful that, as the Financial Times reports today, the United States, Australia, New Zealand and Israel have modelled their approaches to digitisation on the British scheme? Now, since the chief executive has resigned, six senior executives have left the GDS in the last six weeks and there are increasingly worrying reports of what is going on. Can we have at least a Statement and preferably even a White Paper on the future of GOV.UK, or are we going back to piecemeal approaches by departments which were demonstrated to be so ineffective in the past?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

First, I thank the noble Lord for what he did when he was in government in supporting the GDS. I can say that we are utterly committed and remain committed to the strategy that was set out in the last Parliament. Plans will be announced before Christmas that will set out our strategy. The plans to create government as a platform continue, and the noble Lord is absolutely right—from my own experience in the private sector it is right that the entire organisation continues to embrace digital technology and build government as a platform.

Security: State Procession

Debate between Lord Bridges of Headley and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Thursday 9th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the potential security risks posed by converting former government buildings into privately owned hotels along the State Procession route between Buckingham Palace and the Palace of Westminster, including along Whitehall.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Lord Bridges of Headley) (Con)]

My Lords, the former government buildings to be converted into hotels along the state procession route are Admiralty Arch and the Old War Office. The freeholds remain under government ownership in perpetuity and continued oversight and security measures will be implemented as part of the commercial arrangements with the private sector. Long-term protocols and operating procedures are agreed and built into both schemes. The security and intelligence services and the Metropolitan Police are closely involved in this process.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, does the noble Lord recall that when President Bush made a state visit to London, the entire Whitehall area was cordoned off, including to Members of Parliament? Does he also recall that the IRA, from within the area of Whitehall, managed to mortar No. 10? Further, he will remember that the bombing of the Brighton hotel, which affected Mrs Thatcher and others, was placed in the hotel some time in advance of the incident? Do the security services intend to vet positively all the staff of these hotels; has that been agreed? Will the hotels be closed to all visitors during state visits or will the visitors be vetted as well?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

The noble Lord has raised interesting questions based on his own experience. I have looked into the clauses of the leases for both the Old War Office and Admiralty Arch and I am satisfied that they allow for appropriate access for both security and ceremonial purposes. The hotels will employ their own staff, and while the Government have not insisted on security clearances for each member of staff, it is obviously in the hoteliers’ interests to take their security checks on their staff into consideration. Furthermore, I should point out that both the Metropolitan Police and the security services are very involved, as always, in ceremonial processions and major events, and will continue to be so to make sure that security is upheld.

Voting: UK Overseas Citizens

Debate between Lord Bridges of Headley and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Monday 6th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, I believe that this is a matter that your Lordships and many others have discussed many times and will continue to do so, but, as I have said, we have set out our view on the European referendum. It will be based on the parliamentary franchise. However, I am sure that we will continue to have the debate that my noble friend wishes to have.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, do we have any idea how many British citizens there are overseas and how many of them are dual citizens of the United Kingdom and other countries? When I was in government I tried to find out figures on this and got estimates that varied between about 4.5 million and 6 million. Could the Government possibly aid us all by trying to get some accurate estimates, including of where they live and how many of them are dual citizens?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, I hardly dare say that my efforts will be greater than those of the noble Lord. What I will say, reading from my brief, which I am sure the noble Lord remembers, is that there are 5.2 million British-born migrants living overseas. I do not have a breakdown but I will certainly ask. I would stress that more than 105,000 British citizens resident overseas were registered to vote in the election—more than three times the previous highest number.