Queen’s Speech

Lord Bridges of Headley Excerpts

Tuesday 24th May 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Lord Bridges of Headley) (Con)]

My Lords, I am very honoured to wind up this debate on the gracious Speech. It is my first time of doing so. I am very grateful to all those who have contributed and made such magnificent speeches. I include in that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, despite his jibes about blue on blue attacks. Indeed, I remember very well—far too well—the period when I worked for John Major in Downing Street from 1994 to 1997. Having seen a few leadership plots in my time, I say gently to the noble and learned Lord that people in glass houses should not throw stones.

I will endeavour to respond to as many points as possible. I hope that noble Lords will forgive me if I do not respond to all of them. I will endeavour to make sure that either my department or the relevant department responds in writing. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, made some extremely incisive points about the need for joined-up government. Of course, I would be delighted to meet her to discuss those points. She is always brimming with good ideas.

On the Bill of Rights, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, and the noble Lords, Lord Pannick and Lord Thomas, referred to the delay in publishing the detail of our proposals. As they say in advertising, good things come to those who wait. The Government agree with those noble Lords who believe that reform of the UK human rights framework must involve careful consideration. Our proposals will be published for consultation in due course. However, I can guarantee that there will be significantly more consultation on, and scrutiny of, the Bill of Rights than there was of the Human Rights Act, which was introduced without, I understand, formal consultation and within just six months of the 1997 general election. Our plans involve a Bill of Rights based on convention rights, but which takes into account our common law tradition and makes clear where the balance should lie between Strasbourg and the UK courts.

A number of noble Lords argued that any action might mean that protection of human rights is lessened. The Government argue that it simply is not the case that rights and liberties are guaranteed only because of the Human Rights Act. They were protected before 1998 and will continue to be in the future. The Bill of Rights will continue to protect fundamental human rights. It will also restore some credibility to human rights by better protecting the system from abuse.

On the rationale for the Bill of Rights, the Human Rights Act needs to be looked at to ensure that it is giving proper emphasis to public safety, as there have been too many instances recently of real evidence that something was going wrong. We are all agreed on the need for liberty and the right to life and privacy. The problem is not one of subscribing to those rights but of how the system operates in practice. I am sure that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, agrees with that because those were his own words in 2006.

On the issue of human rights and the Armed Forces, raised by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, the Government are acutely aware of the issues raised and are actively considering the best way forward. Several noble Lords mentioned the UK’s international obligations. As my noble friend Lord Faulks set out, our reforms focus on staying within the European Convention on Human Rights but ensuring a more balanced application of human rights that restores some common sense. That said, we rule nothing out in the long term. The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, mentioned prisoner voting. This is a matter for Parliament to determine. We do not seek confrontation with the Council of Europe and we are committed to a process of dialogue to find a mutually agreed way forward on this issue. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, asked whether our intention was to allow other member states of the Council of Europe to decide the interpretation of the convention. It is important to remember that almost every major western democracy has its own distinctive way of protecting core rights. No one wishes to see countries—in the west or otherwise—flouting basic rights and freedoms, but the UK has led the way in pushing for greater recognition by the Strasbourg court of the principle of subsidiarity. Among other things, this allows member states a margin of appreciation in how they interpret the rights in the convention.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, pointed to the European Union Committee’s report on the Bill of Rights, which was a thoughtful contribution to this important debate. It highlights the complex legal area of the interaction between the European Charter of Fundamental Rights, the European Convention on Human Rights and domestic law. I welcome the noble Baroness’s acknowledgment of the Government taking a lead on human rights in the Modern Slavery Act, and her observation that our courts were protecting human rights before 1998. We will consider their Lordships’ report and respond in due course.

Today’s debate covered the topic of devolution, which the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, mentioned in the context of human rights reforms. I reassure noble Lords that we will of course fully engage with the devolved Administrations and fulfil our mandate in a way that reflects the interests of all parts of the UK. Our focus will be on building consensus around sensible, necessary reforms across the UK. For example, your Lordships will know that the protection of human rights is a key part of the Belfast agreement, and our Bill of Rights will continue to protect the rights set out in the European Convention on Human Rights. We take our responsibilities under the Belfast agreement very seriously; we will not do anything to undermine it and we will work with parties to that end.

A number of noble Lords raised the issue of the Strathclyde review and the Government’s response to it. I do not wish to sound unduly opaque or obtuse, but I clearly cannot say, here and now, what the Government will do. That will be set out in our response, which will be published in due course. I gently point out that there is considerable confusion and misunderstanding about the conventions governing the relationship between the two Houses regarding statutory instruments. We do indeed need clarity and certainty. The noble Lord, Lord Richard, and my noble friend Lord Cormack argued for a committee of both Houses to consider the Government’s proposals. At this juncture, noting that the Government’s response has not been published, I say gently that three committees in this House, and one in the other place, have already considered the issue.

My noble friend Lord Cormack, the noble Lord, Lord Richard, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge—who gave an excellent and very interesting speech at King’s College on this issue last month—have argued that the Government are using SIs inappropriately, that the powers being taken are too wide and the amount of secondary legislation is increasing. Although his speech was excellent, I do not want, at the late hour of 10.10 pm, to enter into a long-winded battle of statistics on the use of SIs. All I will say is that there has been no increase in the number of SIs laid before Parliament in the last 20 years. The total number made peaked in 2001, and more were laid before Parliament in the 1997-1998 and 2005-2006 Sessions than in any Session since, including between 2010 and 2012.

[Lord Norton of Louth]

Will my noble friend tell the House how many pages these statutory instruments comprised?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I suspect that my noble friend knows the answer to that question. I am sure he will tell the House. I dread to think.

The noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, who has more experience on the matter of statutory instruments than many in this House—or, indeed, in Parliament—rightly raised the issue of the need for proper scrutiny of delegated legislation. I say to him, to my noble friend and to all noble Lords that after only a year in this House, I entirely agree that we need to do that. However, I say again, with due respect and very gently, that there is a comprehensive scrutiny system through which Parliament can hold the Government to account for the delegated powers and SIs that they use. This includes scrutiny by three dedicated Select Committees, debates in Standing Committees and Floor debates.

[Lord Tyler]

Before the Minister leaves the Strathclyde report, will he correct one point? He suggested just now that the three committees to which he referred had somehow prevented the need for a Joint Committee. Absolutely wrong—it is precisely the opposite. All three of those committees recommended that the proper way to deal with the relationship between the two Houses was to bring representatives of the two Houses together in a Joint Committee.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

The noble Lord, as always, makes a very incisive point. All I can say right now is that the Government are working on their response and will respond in due course to all these points. The eloquence with which he and the noble Lords, Lord Kakkar and Lord Butler, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, have spoken shows that when, in due course, this happens, we will have a passionate and well-informed debate on the issue.

[Lord Cormack]

May I gently ask, is “in due course” expected to be soon?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

Ah, I am told by a noble friend that it will be “shortly”; let us see. I know that it is being awaited with avid anticipation. Before I leave the subject, I would like to talk about the point raised by a number of noble Lords about the need to tackle the size and composition of the House of Lords. Obviously, these are important questions, which is why my noble friend the Leader of the House has convened cross-party talks regarding the way forward. Those talks have been constructive and there are plenty of ideas around, as we heard tonight.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I wonder if I can give the Minister another idea. If the number of Peers from London was reduced to the same percentage as those from the rest of the United Kingdom, the size would come down below 600 immediately.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

That is an extremely interesting idea, which I know was raised this afternoon. I will take that away and mull it over tonight. There have been plenty of ideas around, as I was saying, but to make progress there has to be the political will on all sides to move forward. The best way for us to proceed is in the way that has been so successful in recent years: to look for incremental change that commands cross-party support rather than risking biting off more than we can chew.

Turning to other aspects of the constitution, my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth and others raised concerns about our approach to constitutional reform. I argue that the Government have a very clear goal: to deliver a constitutional settlement that is balanced and fair to everyone in the country and all parts of the UK. The British constitution is characterised by pragmatism and an ability to evolve and adapt to circumstances, and our unique constitutional arrangements enable agility and responsiveness to the needs and wishes of our citizens. I know it is 10.10 pm but I cannot resist the temptation to quote Bagehot at this hour. I dug this out as I thought my noble friend might raise this point, and I am sure he knows this quote by heart:

“Half the world believes that the Englishman is born illogical, and that he has a sort of love of complexity in and for itself. They argue that no nation with any logic in it could ever make such a Constitution. And in fact no one did make it. It is a composite result of various efforts, very few of which had any reference to the look of the whole, and of which the infinite majority only had a very bounded reference to a proximate end”.

That is not necessarily the Government’s strict position but I think it informs debate on this issue.

As to how we make decisions on these matters, the Government make these policy decisions, like all others, through the Cabinet and the Prime Minister, while the Cabinet Office has oversight of constitutional policy and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster chairs the Constitutional Reform Committee. I look forward very much to the report of the Constitution Reform Group to which the noble Lords, Lord Hain and Lord Lisvane, referred. I am sorry to disappoint the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, but there are no plans to establish a constitutional convention. I still hold to the view that, to have such a convention, we would need a convention on a convention to agree its remit and membership. Instead, our focus is on delivering a fair and balanced settlement, as I have said.

Turning to another part of our constitution—the hidden wiring that is the Civil Service, which the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, mentioned—I have a great deal of time for the Civil Service, mainly because my grandfather and uncle were both civil servants. I believe it is excellent at policy and implementation. That said, I am certainly not complacent. There is always more that we can do. We are indeed building on the work of my noble friend Lord Maude, transforming how the Civil Service operates to meet the challenges of the digital age.

I turn to another part of our constitution: the little platoons, or charities, which the noble Baronesses, Lady Scott of Needham Market and Lady Barker, spoke about. I assure them that the Government work closely with the sector on all manner of issues, including on volunteering and charities. I will look in particular into the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, about procurement, but at this stage I will say that I entirely agree with her that we need to harness the power and energy of the sector if we are to meet out life chances agenda. She is absolutely right on that.

The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, mentioned party funding. I very much look forward to reading his Bill. He calls it a modest offering, but I do not think anything that the noble Lord produces is modest. We will always look to constructive ideas. Obviously, the Government cannot impose consensus on the political parties, but we are open to debate and dialogue, including taking forward measures for discussion on promoting small-scale private fundraising. That brings me to the point on the overseas voters Bill raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter. She asked whether overseas voters who have lived abroad for more than 15 years will be able to donate to political parties. This will become clear when we publish the Bill.

As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has repeatedly said, the fight against extremism is the struggle of our generation. There is obviously the question of how we define extremism, as a number of noble Lords said. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, the noble Baronesses, Lady Hamwee and Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Southwark all raised this. I will ensure that these points are highlighted with the department, but will say at this juncture that we will consult on the detail in the coming months, and if a definition is used in the Bill I am sure it will be debated at length, quite rightly, during its passage through Parliament.

On the broader point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick of Undercliffe, that these measures could undermine freedom of speech, I would argue to the contrary. Our extremism strategy protects fundamental shared values such as freedom of speech, and nothing in the powers will stop people from holding or expressing their religious views. The measures will not curtail the democratic right to protest, nor will they close down debate. We are going to consult on these measures and will continue to talk to community groups, the police and others. We will of course listen to the views of groups and individuals as the legislation undergoes scrutiny in Parliament.

Turning to the proposals to reform our prisons, I was delighted by both the support and the interest that this package of measures has received. As my noble friend Lord Faulks said, this will be the biggest shake-up of prisons since Victorian times. A pilot of six trailblazers, including one of Europe’s largest prisons, Wandsworth, means that more than 5,000 offenders will be housed in reform prisons by the end of this year. A number of your Lordships, including the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, said that what is really needed is more investment. I do not want to bandy lots of statistics around, but we are investing £1.3 billion to modernise the prison estate, building nine new prisons and creating 10,000 new prison places with better education facilities and rehabilitative services. On top of that, we have responded to staffing pressures—a point raised by a number of noble Lords—with an increase of 530 officers since January last year. Noble Lords will also be aware that, in addition to the £5 million which we have committed to rolling out for body-worn cameras and additional CCTV in prisons, the Government have allocated £10 million to deal with prison safety issues.

A number of noble Lords raised the issue of overcrowding. We want to tackle overcrowding and stop warehousing prisoners in a way which simply fuels reoffending. That is what the reform programme will do. Our current prison estate is overcrowded. We will close down ageing and ineffective prisons, replacing them with buildings fit for today’s demands. We will also reorganise the existing estate so we are using it as effectively as possible, by ensuring prisoners are held in environments that match their needs and risks. In doing all this, we will be mindful of the advice and recommendations we receive, which the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham—who speaks with so much experience on this matter—spoke so eloquently about.

All that said, the best way to reduce the prison population is to tackle the causes of crime in the first place. My noble friends Lord Farmer and Lady Stroud, as well as the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Rochester, spoke passionately about the Government’s life chances agenda, which aims to do just that. We need to do more—much, much more—to tackle deep-rooted social challenges which threaten not merely to thwart opportunity but lead to a life of crime, including, as my noble friend Lady Stroud mentioned, family instability and breakup.

[Lord Beecham]

The noble Lord has not touched on one of the issues that my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer and I mentioned, which is the number of remand prisoners who have not been convicted of anything but nevertheless figure in the prison population.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, I am sorry about that. I will need to refresh my memory and write to noble Lords on that point.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton]

Before the noble Lord leaves the subject of the prison system, can he tell the House by how much the education budget will go up?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I do not have that statistic straight to hand; I will certainly write to the noble and learned Lord. Let me pick up an earlier point made by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, about legal aid. I understand that we are committed to a review of LASPO, as we have said on several occasions. He rightly raised that point.

I turn briefly to policing and crime. The noble Baroness, Lady Henig, raised the issue of neighbourhood policing. I commend to her the provisions of the Policing and Crime Bill, which the Government believe will help to drive further efficiencies and joint working between emergency services and to deliver more funding for the front line, including for investment in neighbourhood policing.

I touch on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Green of Deddington, in his interesting speech about the growth of our population. He spoke powerfully, and the Government are acutely aware of the pressures that population growth is placing on our society, which is why we are focusing so heavily on building more homes and roads and improving our rail network, quite apart from investing in schools and hospitals. On this point, we are not complacent; we are very seized of the challenges we face.

I am sorry for a ramble through those points. As I said, I apologise to those noble Lords whose questions I have not addressed; I will endeavour to do so in writing after this debate. I thank all noble Lords for the energetic and interesting discussion we have had and am sure that I speak on behalf of my fellow Ministers when I say that we all look forward to debating these matters with your Lordships in the coming months.

Debate adjourned until tomorrow.