Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Elis-Thomas

Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Wednesday 14th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have participated in debate on this group of amendments. It was a debate of considerable weight. First, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, for his kind words and agree with him about the need for institutions in general to work together, but particularly in the context he mentioned of the legislatures in Wales and here, and his comments about the work of the Counsel General for Wales, Mick Antoniw—his work is much welcomed.

I turn to points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, about the committee—it is the Government’s view that it should be non-statutory—that will look at the judicial arrangements within the jurisdiction of England and Wales. Points were also made by the noble Lords, Lord Elis-Thomas, Lord Wigley and Lord Morgan, the noble and learned Lords, Lord Morris and Lord Hope, and my noble friend Lady Finn.

First, let me reassure noble Lords that, as I think I indicated, it is intended that this should be a permanent body. We await the recommendations of the working group as to how often it should report. It has been suggested that it could be annually; others have suggested every three or five years. Let us look to see what the committee says. The Government have an open mind on this; we will await the recommendation. The important point is that it will be permanent. I accept the point made by noble Lords that this is an evolving picture; indeed, this is an interim arrangement, as the noble Lord, Lord Morgan, said. In a sense, it is interim between different reports. When the reports come, they will come with advice. It is an advisory committee, but Governments, unless there is good reason, listen to advice—and this will be advice from people with expertise in this area.

I return to the point that there is good will between the UK Government and the Welsh Government as to how this should operate. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State is meeting the First Minister to discuss this. I hesitate to say that it is a reserved area or that we feel that there is some veto on it by the Welsh Government, but we can progress only by consensus. I think it is accepted that it needs willing participation by both parties—and that is there, so let us see what evolves.

I should perhaps remind noble Lords that the LCM has not yet been passed, so if the Welsh Government are not happy with it, it will be open to them to turn it down. The LCM is not just about the fiscal framework—although that is clearly an important part—but about the Bill in general.

Welsh law is different in many respects now from English law—I recognise and accept that, and have said so myself before—but the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, referred to the common law of England and Wales. It is a point worth making that this is not exclusively the property of England; the common-law system belongs to both countries and will no doubt remain a bedrock of the legal system. That is what practitioners in Wales want—and what the law schools there want, so far as I can tell from my conversations. However, they recognise that this is an evolving picture, as do the Government. We need the expertise of practitioners and academics as well as the views of the Welsh and UK Governments in moving this forward. We have sought to craft something balanced. There is a general desire to do something in this area and, although opinions may differ to a degree, we are in the same territory, so I hope that this is acceptable.

I turn to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, in relation to “normally”. I accept that putting something into legislation is very different from having it as a convention. Obviously, we await the judgment of the Supreme Court for all sorts of reasons, as noble Lords know. I indicated—perhaps I should have reiterated it earlier—that we are looking at guidance notes, which will be the focus of attention after the Bill has passed. In the light of the Bill, we will obviously need to look at them anyway. I give an undertaking that we will flesh out “normally” in the context of guidance notes, which is probably a better way of proceeding than legislation.

I hope that I have covered the main points in relation to the non-government amendments and thank noble Lords for participating in this debate. I thank my noble friend Lady Finn for welcoming some of the changes that we have made, and the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, for her points about permanence; I certainly give reassurance on that.

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

May I pursue the point that the Minister just made about the non-statutory proposal for this commission between the legislatures and the Governments of the United Kingdom and Wales? Would he like to reflect further on the nature of that proposal? When we come to Third Reading, he might be able to tell us a little more. Does he intend to publish a report from the working group in time for us to be able to discuss it further at that stage?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I indicated on the latter point that I certainly intended that we would publish, in some form, the findings of the group on this matter. Yes, I will reflect on what has been said and say more on Third Reading, when we will be further forward in discussions, to provide extra reassurance. I come back to the point that obviously we want to move by consensus in talking with the Welsh Government and, more broadly, with the National Assembly for Wales. Again, I remind noble Lords that the LCM is a requirement before we can move to Third Reading, so the membership of the National Assembly has to be happy with what is proposed—otherwise, presumably, no LCM will be forthcoming.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Elis-Thomas

Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 23rd November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

I do not think that it does. There is a difference between a legislature which is developing new legislation within the framework previously laid down by this Parliament because there is no other legislative framework, and making provision—which therefore distinguishes itself from the rest of the United Kingdom—and what a United Kingdom Parliament might seek to do, and for what reason, to intervene in the legislative process of what might be regarded as a subordinate legislature. Those are the differences, and that is where the concerns come from.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, much as I have the greatest respect for the noble Lord, that is not a tenable argument in law, as I am sure he knows. I take the point about the political dimension, as he knows, but on the legal aspect, the two bodies operate in just the same way. However, as I say, I will write to noble Lords on that. I understand the arguments being put forward, by the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, in particular, as well as his point about the evolving devolution process, which makes this type of arrangement sensible where there is reciprocity. I will write to noble Lords on that point.

Amendments 120 and 120A were spoken to effectively by the noble Lord, Lord Hain, who took us through some of the financial aspects that have to be considered. I understand that. First, on something I have stated many times, although I will certainly state it again, we will not move to Third Reading—as I said at Second Reading—until there is a legislative consent Motion. So, if there is no legislative consent Motion—and there may not be; that is an issue for the National Assembly for Wales and the Ministers of the Welsh Government—we will have no Third Reading.

In relation to Report, I understand from discussions with officials—this may well be confirmed by Members of the Opposition Front Bench, who obviously have had discussions with Welsh Ministers—that there is a desire for us to move to Report so that we are closer to the sort of Bill that we will see at the end and so that the Welsh Government can then move to the legislative consent Motion, content that we are moving in an appropriate way. So we are keeping in touch on that, but I understand that there is a consensual element here to having Report, the first date of which is already public and will take place before Christmas.

We will have two days on Report to reflect on many of the important issues we have dealt with, and the second day will be soon after we come back in the new year. As I understand it—the noble Baroness pressed me on this issue—we are hoping for a legislative consent Motion in the middle of January before moving to Third Reading shortly after that. That is the suggested choreography, but of course we are in the hands of the Welsh Government and the National Assembly for Wales in relation to the legislative consent Motion. I cannot be definitive about that but I can be definitive, as I think I have been in the past, that we will not move to Third Reading until we have the legislative consent Motion. I should also say that there is pressure elsewhere in the legislative programme, as I am sure noble Lords will accept.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

The noble Lord raises a point about my stating that we would not proceed until Third Reading. That is a restatement of what I said at Second Reading—I checked that before coming to the House. As I have indicated, the precise timing of the legislative consent Motion is not dependent on me, the Government, the House of Lords or on the House of Commons but on agreement between the Treasury and Welsh Government Ministers and then the agreement of the National Assembly for Wales.

On the fiscal framework document, the noble Lord will know that the Bill has already been through the other place and will go back there for consideration of government amendments—we have many government amendments that are measures that we all agree upon. But I am not sure that in any event that would give the opportunity for consideration of the fiscal framework as it will be only Commons consideration of Lords amendments: so they will only be able to consider any amendments we make on Third Reading.

I will endeavour through representations to see what additional information we can give on the discussions. Another meeting is due on 1 December, and from what we can gather, discussions are going well—I have heard this from both the Welsh Government side and our own Treasury side. I will endeavour to give an update as to where we are on 1 December. If we are able to give additional information, I will be happy to do that—but to some extent that will depend on the consent of the Welsh Government as well as our own Government. I do not foresee any problem on that, but obviously that is for them to determine. The date of the legislative consent Motion is dependent not just upon having the fiscal framework agreed, as I understand it; it then has to be considered by the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee of the National Assembly—I can see that the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, is indicating agreement to that.

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

My Lords, I understand that the committee is about to begin consideration.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord, who I know sits on that committee and plays a leading part in it. I assure the noble Lord that if I can help and be forthcoming with any information, it will be made available.

On the other issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hain—the fiscal framework and the discussions on it—first, it is not for me to enter into these negotiations. They are going on between the Treasury and Welsh Government Ministers, and whatever my political differences with Carwyn Jones, Mark Drakeford and others, I have no doubt about and in fact have the highest opinion of their abilities and insight. This is a consensual arrangement. If they do not want an agreement on proposed terms, they have the option of not saying so—and if there is no legislative consent Motion, there is no Bill. So there is no question of a pistol being applied to anybody’s head; the issue is for the National Assembly to determine.

Having been there, I have the greatest respect for the Ministers and officials. That is being hammered out, I gather that robust discussions are taking place and I am sure, and hope, that they are considering the best interests of Wales. But any representations by noble Lords opposite should be made to the First Minister, the Finance Minister and others in those discussions. It is not for me or for us to shadow manage what they are doing—and, I am sure, doing very effectively.

That probably summarises the Government’s position. I have given the undertaking sought; I will do my best to make information available on the fiscal discussions as they become available. I understand what noble Lords say about protecting Welsh interests, but under these devolved Administrations and in these devolved days, it is for the Welsh Ministers and the National Assembly for Wales to bring forward the legislative consent Motion. With that, and with those undertakings, I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment and other noble Lords not to press their amendments.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Elis-Thomas

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 15th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have participated in the debate on Amendment 53, in particular the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, who moved it. It seeks to reserve sea fishing outside the Welsh zone but makes an exception to that reservation for Welsh fishing boats. The notional effect of the amendment would be that the Assembly would have legislative competence for Welsh vessels outside the Welsh zone. However, in practical terms the amendment would have no effect because it seeks to reserve a power which the Assembly could not have. Under the Government of Wales Act 2006 and under this Bill, the Assembly’s legislative competence extends to the landmass of Wales and the sea adjacent to Wales out as far as the seaward boundary of the territorial sea; that is, 12 nautical miles, so as drafted it could have no effect. The Assembly has no legislative competence beyond that 12 miles—

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

The Minister will remember of course that before 2006 Wales did not even have a sea.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I am going on to tackle the point made by the noble Lord. The Assembly has no legislative competence as things stand although Welsh Ministers can exercise executive functions in that part of the Welsh zone beyond 12 nautical miles in so far as these have been conferred by United Kingdom enactments.

I take the points that have been made in relation to fishing, but as drafted we would need to look at the amendment. It proposes something fairly fundamental to the extent that it would vary the geographic extent of the Assembly’s competence. I would want to go away and have a look at that to see how it could be refined, if that is possible. This is not something that was considered by Silk or by the St David’s Day agreement and, as drafted, the amendment goes well beyond the issue of fishing licences.

My noble friend Lord Deben referred to some of the ramifications in relation to fishing policy as it exists at the moment through Europe and as it will exist in the future outside of Europe, but that is obviously still something to be refined. I want to reflect on that as well.

My noble friend Lord Crickhowell asked about the licensing of fishing vessels and the position in his former constituency of Pembroke—Preseli Pembrokeshire as it now is. I can well remember as an elected representative in the Assembly for that area going at about four o’clock in the morning to the fish market at Milford Haven to speak to electors. All the electors there were Spanish electors, although they did have vehicles that were licensed in Wales as part of the United Kingdom. I think that that remains the position at the moment, but how it will pan out post-Brexit I do not know.

If I may I will take the amendment away and look at it, but based on the fact that there are far more ramifications to this than just fishing, and even in relation to fishing there are of course considerable ramifications—beyond 12 miles it is an economic zone for the state of the United Kingdom and we would exercise powers in relation to that for the whole country. On the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, I thank him for his always gentle and complimentary approach which has me doing things I would probably not normally agree to; I recognise the dangers. I hope that we have looked at things in relation to this legislation on a pragmatic basis because that is the way to approach it. Any general rule is going to have to give way to exceptions because as we can see there are always difficulties in these things. Sometimes they look much more straightforward than they are. My door is always open and we have set up meetings with many noble Lords. I am happy to do that, but as I say our approach to the legislation is a good British pragmatic one. I will look without prejudice at what I think is a much more difficult area than perhaps it looks on the face of it. With that, I hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords who have participated in the debate on these amendments, which relate to water. I particularly welcome the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, who moved his amendment with sensitivity and fairness on an issue which I know is very close to his heart. The Government are determined that never again should there be a Tryweryn. That is at the back of all our thinking on this issue.

I welcome the contributions from around the Committee. My noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral spoke with passion of his time in north Wales, and the noble Lord, Lord Morgan, talked of his home county of Meirionnydd. I also welcome the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan. I could not agree more with the sentiments that they expressed. I also thank my noble friend Lord Crickhowell—with his background and experience as chairman of the National Rivers Authority—for bringing his authority to this issue: aligning the border is not necessarily straightforward.

Water is of symbolic importance as well as practical significance to Wales. It evokes more passion and debate than probably any other issue relating to Welsh devolution. It is not just about Tryweryn; as the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, reminded us, it is about the Dulas Valley as well, and there have been other issues. I thank noble Lords for contributing to the debate from the viewpoint of their own experiences. The strength of feeling has been amply demonstrated in their speeches.

In announcing the Government’s intention to devolve pay, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales signalled that the Government were exploring other aspects of the settlement to ensure that it is as clear and fair as possible. Yesterday, my right honourable friend Alun Cairns announced the Government’s intention to remove the Secretary of State’s powers to intervene on water and to replace them with a statutory protocol on water between the United Kingdom Government and the Welsh Government. Work will be done on that, and we hope to have the detail ready for Report.

That is a highly significant announcement. Water has been a challenging issue, as anyone familiar with recent Welsh history will know. The replacement of the intervention powers with a formal protocol marks a step change in the history of Welsh devolution—one that resolves past differences and provides clarity for the future. The move also removes any last impediment that there may be—at least in terms of this Bill; I hope the noble Baroness will be able to clarify this—to the Assembly giving its approval to the Wales Bill, subject of course to agreement on the fiscal arrangements.

The existing intervention powers were put in place in the Government of Wales Act 2006, when Peter Hain—now the noble Lord, Lord Hain—was Secretary of State. Since then, there has been a great deal of development in relation to devolution. This Bill marks a move to a new, durable and lasting devolution settlement, underpinned by a recognition of the maturity of the Assembly and the Welsh Government. In keeping with this, it is time to replace the Secretary of State’s powers to intervene on the Assembly and Welsh Ministers in relation to water with a statutory protocol between the United Kingdom Government and the Welsh Government which defines how the two Governments will work together on water-related issues—in particular, cross-border issues.

I confirm that the Government intend to bring forward amendments on Report to put in place the requirement for a formal agreement and to remove the intervention powers. In doing so, it will be important to respect the interests of water users in both Wales and England. As my noble friend Lord Crickhowell exemplified, this is not necessarily straightforward in every respect.

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

I am excited not just by the environmental and political aspects of this but by the constitutional implications. Can the Minister help us by indicating whether establishing a protocol in relation to powers between the Assembly and this Parliament, and indeed between the Welsh Government and the UK Government, is something that he would consider in other areas of policy in the Bill?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, as I have indicated, working together between the Government in Cardiff and the Government of the United Kingdom is of interest to all of us who believe in an effective United Kingdom and an effective Wales. So, yes, I am certainly in favour of that, as I have indicated. In so far as we can provide for that, the Government are open to looking at it. With the excitement of that intervention, I have lost my place.

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

The temptation to intervene was too much.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I fully understand.

It will be important to put in place a protocol with bite. Both Governments will be subject to a duty to act in accordance with the new agreement and, once it is in place, both will need to agree any changes to it. The agreement will also need to include a process for resolving any disagreements that both Governments will sign up to.

It is as yet too early to say how soon the new arrangements will be agreed, but the Government will repeal the Secretary of State’s water intervention powers once an agreement is signed and sealed. This historic commitment to remove the intervention powers paves the way to conclude the Government’s consideration of the wider devolution issues relating to water and sewerage, including the sewerage intervention powers currently in Clause 46 of the Bill and the question of whether powers over water and sewerage should be aligned with the England-Wales border.

The Silk report recognised that water and sewerage devolution was complex and that further work was needed to consider the practical implications of implementing the commission’s recommendations. Following the St David’s Day agreement, the Government set up the joint Governments’ programme board with the Welsh Government to look at these issues and report on the likely effects that implementing the recommendations would have on the efficient delivery of water and sewerage services, on consumers and on the water undertakers.

That work has concluded and the Government have been considering the evidence that has been collected. In doing so, it has been particularly important to consider carefully the interests of customers and businesses on both sides of the border before reaching a decision on the recommendations. It remains the Government’s intention to bring forward provisions to implement the recommendations, if such a thing is achievable, and I hope to be able to return to this on Report.

I will now turn to other water-related amendments that are not Silk recommendations. Amendment 104, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, seeks to amend the Water Industry Act 1991 as it relates to Ofwat. Part of this amendment would require the Secretary of State to seek the consent of Welsh Ministers before making directions to Ofwat, outlining her priorities for keeping the activities of water companies under review. This would occur where these directions apply to Welsh water companies and licensees carrying out activities in the areas of those companies. This requirement for consent would cover all of Ofwat’s functions, including those applicable to policy areas reserved to the Secretary of State, such as those relating to competition law, insolvency and mergers. This would give the Welsh Ministers considerable influence over policy areas that are not devolved.

The noble Baroness’s amendment would also place a requirement on Ofwat to make its annual report to the Assembly rather than just send it a copy, as is currently the case. At present there is nothing to prevent the Welsh Ministers laying before the Assembly the annual report that Ofwat sends them or publishing it in any manner they see fit.

The amendment requires appointments to Ofwat’s board to be made jointly by the Secretary of State and the Welsh Ministers. Other amendments seek to grant Welsh Ministers joint powers with the Secretary of State over board members’ terms and conditions. Currently, the Secretary of State makes all appointments following consultation with the Welsh Ministers and consults them on some other aspects. In practice, this means that the Secretary of State writes to the Welsh Ministers to seek their views on an applicant before confirming the appointment. However, the Welsh Government are also invited to sit on the appointment panel, which is chaired by Defra. This, along with the various requirements to consult Welsh Ministers, already provides the Welsh Government with considerable influence over the process and final appointment decisions.

Amendment 105 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, concerns the abstraction of water from Welsh reservoirs. As I think I have indicated, I share the views expressed by noble Lords today: the events of some 50 years ago which resulted in the flooding of Tryweryn were some of the darkest and most regrettable days in modern Welsh history. Never again.

In answer to the question raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan—I am delighted to note that she did not wish to be churlish; I welcome that very much—decisions about the construction of new reservoirs and environmental controls are already devolved to the Assembly. However, we are going further—and rightly so. The Assembly exercises legislative competence in relation to both issues: construction and environmental controls. The Welsh Ministers would need to issue a compulsory works order to allow the construction of a new reservoir to take place. It is within the competence of the Assembly to give itself a role in the issue of consent orders.

Natural Resources Wales is the environmental body which regulates abstraction in Wales. Again, the Welsh Minsters and the Assembly can legislate to change or add to its powers. Nevertheless, as announced yesterday by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, the Government intend to remove the Secretary of State’s powers to intervene on water and replace them with a protocol. I think that that is in the spirit of where we need to be in relation to this totemic and practically significant area of water. On that basis—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I am happy to clarify that point. I believe that the existing powers in relation to the Welsh Government and Welsh Ministers are sufficient, but I am very happy to look at that issue and cover it in the protocol, which could extend to that if it is something that we should be doing. I will happily discuss that with the noble Baroness.

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

The Minister will recollect that we worked together in the National Assembly. I looked at this issue at the time and I can reassure him and the House that the way in which he described the current position in planning and environmental law is indeed the position. But of course that does not mean that we cannot strengthen it by making indications about the intervention powers of the Secretary of State. On that, I think we are all agreed.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord for reminding me of the years of co-operation we had in the National Assembly for Wales and for clarifying that issue in the way that he did. On that basis, I hope that the noble Lord will consider withdrawing his amendment.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Elis-Thomas

Monday 7th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

The noble Lord jogs my memory on the Attorney-General v De Keyser’s Royal Hotel Limited which was a compulsory purchase situation. I believe that he is right and he speaks with great authority. I am always stunned by the noble Lord’s recall of these matters, without any note. I am confident that he is right on this issue, but nevertheless I am very happy to meet with the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, to look at it further.

I was also asked about the transfer of powers, which we are doing by transfer of function order rather than in the Bill. I have notified noble Lords of the functions that we have identified that will be transferred to Ministers. We are consulting with the Welsh Government in case they find any more that we have missed. I do not think that is the case, but if it is we will, of course, amend the transfer of functions orders.

The noble Baroness referred to and welcomed Amendments 31 to 35, which add a number of additional fisheries management functions to the licensing functions already being transferred to Welsh Minsters. These are management functions under the Sea Fish (Conservation) Act 1967. The noble Baroness has said that she is happy with this but it could go further. I will go away and take a look at it, reflect on what she has said and come back to it on Report. On that basis, I urge the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

My Lords, I will take up the Minister’s offer of a meeting, not that I want to add to his diary which is obviously very busy during the passage of the Bill. I know that he understands my concern about the general failure of the Bill to move us forward and provide a stronger basis for both the functions of Ministers and the operation of the National Assembly itself. I will not pursue that, because I am leading on the next amendment. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

Once we know what the exceptions are, of course, that is the case, but we need to go through them to make sure that there are none of those exceptions.

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister yet again for his generosity in responding to the arguments. We await his further consideration and, no doubt, will have further discussions with him. As the former Member of Parliament and now the Assembly Member for a particular length of the River Dee, I certainly would not want to deprive customers anywhere on either side of the Marches of Wales of their water supply. It is a bit rich, when we revert to this exceptional issue, to suggest to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, that because the rivers in Scotland apparently flow into the sea rather than into England, the situation in Scotland is somehow different. We need weightier arguments on that issue than we have had.

However, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have participated in the debate. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, emphasised the need for clarity and accountability. That is exactly the clarity that all of us who have tried to build and rebuild the devolution settlement in Wales seek. I was particularly grateful, as always, to the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, for his incisive questioning, and, of course, to the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, whom I affectionately earlier called the red baroness. I hope that did not cause her offence. Perhaps I called her that in the Assembly; I keep confusing the Assembly and this Parliament. I will withdraw the amendment but I give way to the noble Lord.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Elis-Thomas

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 7th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elis-Thomas (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, my amendments in this group are all focused on attempting to ensure that the legislative competence of the Assembly is not reduced by the movement from conferred powers with exceptions, to reserved matters with even more exceptions.

I was always concerned about this matter when I had responsibility for presiding over the Assembly because I had to make decisions about the competence of legislation. I often found it difficult to assure myself that there was clarity about the boundaries, although I was advised by excellent lawyers. The current Presiding Officer of the Llywydd has published a series of amendments to enable us to study the question of the constitutional propriety of where we are heading. What particularly troubles me—I am sure the Minister will understand this—is that the UK Government seem to have no intention of publishing an explanation or rationale, if there is such a thing, across the whole 200 or so reservations that would help us to understand the constitutional principles at work here.

Although we were promised by a previous Secretary of State that the pause in the Bill would give an opportunity for these matters to be considered, and there would be a response, this does not seem to have happened. My amendments would restore or maintain the current competence of the Assembly by enabling it to legislate in an ancillary way in relation to reserved matters. I know the Minister will say that ancillary matters are a minority interest but they are of great constitutional import. In my view, this is a clear example of how the move from the current form of legislative powers to the new form is narrowing the Assembly’s competence.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely and to the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, for tabling the amendments. I am particularly grateful for the careful way in which they have spoken to them.

I understand the importance of the issues that have been raised, and I shall try to address them in general terms by giving some examples of how the purpose test should operate in practice. First, on the wording, I say to the noble Baroness that the legislative competence in proposed new Section 108A(3) is a dual test. It allows the Assembly to legislate if it,

“is ancillary to a provision of any Act of the Assembly or Assembly Measure or to a devolved provision of an Act of Parliament, and”—

so there is the additional requirement—

“(b) has no greater effect otherwise than in relation to Wales, or in relation to functions exercisable otherwise than in relation to Wales, than is necessary to give effect to the purpose of that provision”.

So, it is a dual test. It is not simply ancillary but has to be “necessary”, under proposed new subsection (3)(b) of the provision.

These are important issues but they are not novel. Exactly the same sort of questions arose in respect of the Scotland issue because both in Scotland and Wales we are relying on the so-called purpose test to help define the scope of the relevant legislature’s legislative competence. We now have the benefit of guidance, as has been stated, from the Supreme Court, on the proper interpretation of these provisions. The guidance, although given in a Scottish case, will be highly relevant to the Welsh matters provided for in the Bill before us.

The starting point is that whether a provision in an Assembly Bill could be said to “relate to” a reserved matter is dependent on its purpose. As has been pointed out in the Supreme Court,

“the expression ‘relates to’ indicates more than a loose or consequential connection”.

I stress that the application of the purpose test in a reserved powers model should be interpreted as meaning that a provision that merely refers to a reserved matter, or has an incidental or consequential effect on a reserved matter, will not relate to that reserved matter. In other words, to fail the “relates to” test, an Assembly Act provision must have a reserved matter as its purpose. The purpose of a provision must be established by having regard to its legal, practical and policy effects in all the circumstances. The Assembly Member bringing forward the Bill cannot simply assert a purpose for one of its provisions. The purpose must be assessed by considering how the provision has been drafted and what it actually does, as well as the wider context, including the other provisions of the Bill of which the provision under scrutiny forms a part.

It is also important to say that the move from the current conferred powers model to one based on reserved matters reverses the operation of the purpose test. It shifts the burden, which is important. Whereas under the current settlement an Assembly Act provision needs to satisfy the purpose test by positively demonstrating that it relates to one of the subjects conferred in Schedule 7 to the 2006 Act, the reserved powers model instead requires that such a provision must not relate to a reserved subject matter. In other words, the case would need to be made that an Assembly Act provision is outside competence because its purpose relates to a reserved matter. As I say, it shifts the burden of proof. If such a case could be made, the provision would satisfy the requirements of the proposed new Section 108A(2)(c) and would be within competence, provided, of course, that it satisfied the other legislative competence requirements of new Section 108A.

To demonstrate how the purpose test ought to be applied in practice, I thought it would be helpful to give some examples. However, it is important to bear in mind in each of these hypothetical examples that it would depend on how the provision was drafted and what it actually did. As I have mentioned, the purpose test requires assessment of the effect of the provisions, including all the circumstances, in the round. An Assembly Bill which required tenants to insure their residence could relate to the devolved subject of housing and not to the insurance limb of the financial services reservation in Section A3. Rather than aiming to amend the law of insurance, the provision’s purpose would be to ensure the quality of housing stock in Wales. I think that most people would appreciate that that was the purpose.

A further example is that an Assembly Bill provision creating competitive tendering requirements for local authorities would be to improve their efficiency and cost-effectiveness, and would therefore not relate to the competition reservation in Section C3. Furthermore, the jurisdiction of the Agricultural Land Tribunal is set out in the Agricultural Holdings Act 1986. This Act also specifically excludes certain matters from the jurisdiction of the ALT—for example, disputes between landlords and tenants of agricultural land. An Assembly Bill may seek to alter this position by bringing such disputes within the jurisdiction of the ALT and no longer subjecting them to arbitration. This would not engage the arbitration reservation in Section L4 because the purpose of the provision would be to facilitate the smooth and economic operation of the agricultural sector by providing a practical, accessible and cost-effective way of settling disputes about agricultural land. The effect on arbitration would be incidental to, or consequential on, that purpose.

Lastly, an Assembly Bill provision requiring information-sharing between schools and Estyn which supported more general provisions aimed at improving the operation of the education sector in Wales would not relate to the reservation for the protection of personal data in Section L6. I hope this explanation of how we see the purpose test working, and these hypothetical practical examples, are sufficient to reassure the noble Baroness and that she feels able to withdraw her amendment. It is not possible to go through every conceivable example. I think that lawyers would accept that, as drafted, this would serve to answer particular cases that may be brought forward.

Through his Amendments 39 to 41, the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, is seeking to broaden the circumstances in which the Assembly could legislate in relation to reserved matters, and in that respect he is probing similar issues to those raised in Amendment 38. I therefore hope that the explanation I have given is reassuring.

As I have said, unlike under the current settlement—where an Assembly Act provision needs to satisfy the purpose test by positively demonstrating that it “relates to” one of the subjects conferred in Schedule 7 to the 2006 Act—the reserved powers model instead requires that such a provision must not relate to a reserved subject, so that the burden is shifted. In other words, the case would need to be made that an Assembly Act provision is outside competence because its purpose relates to a reserved matter. If such a case could be made, the provision would satisfy the requirements of the proposed new Section 108A(2)(c), and would be within competence, provided, of course, that it satisfied the other requirements. I do not therefore see a need for the Bill to be amended in the way that these amendments propose. Indeed, a side effect of the noble Lord’s amendments would be to prevent the Assembly being able to legislate otherwise than in relation to Wales for ancillary purposes—currently an important part of its competence that allows for enforcement provisions to apply in England. This is something that I know the noble Lord does not intend.

Government Amendment 42A is a minor change to ensure that the wording of the test in Section 108A(5) coincides with the wording in paragraph 12 of Schedule 7B. Both provisions ensure that, when considering the legislative competence of the Assembly in the context of an Act of Parliament, any requirements for the consent of, or for consultation with, a Minister of the Crown, are not relevant. This makes sense on the basis that it would be clearly inappropriate to require a Minister of the Crown to consent to, or be consulted about, an Act of Parliament. This is a technical amendment ensuring consistency throughout the Bill.

I turn to Amendments 47, 75 to 78 and 81 and 82. Paragraph 6 of Schedule 7A reserves the core elements of the single legal jurisdiction of England and Wales. These include the courts, judiciary and civil and criminal proceedings. Sub-paragraph (2) provides an exception to this reservation to enable the Assembly to provide for certain appeals or applications in relation to a devolved civil matter where it is ancillary to a provision of an Act of the Assembly or an Assembly measure.

Amendment 47 seeks to remove the ancillary requirement from this exception and allow the Assembly to directly place devolved functions on to civil courts. This ancillary requirement is crucial in that it enables the Assembly to enforce its legislation and to allow appeal decisions on devolved matters to be heard in a court on civil proceedings, yet it maintains the clear boundary that the single legal jurisdiction is a reserved matter. Paragraph 1 of Schedule 7B restricts the Assembly’s ability to modify the law on reserved matters. This includes any enactment whose subject matter is reserved. Paragraph 2 sets out the exception to this restriction. It allows the Assembly to modify the law on reserved matters where the provision is ancillary to a provision on a devolved matter and has no greater effect on reserved matters than is necessary to give effect to the provision. This provides the Assembly with the flexibility to legislate with regard to the law on reserved matters in a limited way to give effect to provisions that are within its legislative competence. However, such a provision cannot go further than required to achieve its objective.

Amendments 75 and 76 seek to remove the second limb of this exception—that the provision must have no greater effect than necessary—from Assembly provisions that seek to modify the law in relation to paragraphs 6 and 7 of the new Schedule 7A. These are the reservations for the single legal jurisdiction and tribunals. Amendment 77 seeks to remove the necessity element of this test altogether. This would allow an Assembly, through on Act, to amend the law on reserved matters without a requirement for it to act proportionally to meet its objective. The law on reserved matters is, by definition, not an area of the law that should be open to wide-ranging alteration by the Assembly in this manner. This is vital to effect a clear boundary between what is devolved and what is reserved.

The matters within paragraphs 6 and 7 to Schedule 7A specifically are fundamental to the maintenance of the single legal jurisdiction of England and Wales. The Government’s position on the maintenance of the single jurisdiction is clear. Allowing the Assembly to modify these areas puts at risk the uniformity on which the single jurisdiction is based. Removing the requirement that Assembly modifications to the law on these matters should go no further than necessary would give the Assembly a significant increase in competence. The constraints represent an appropriate and balanced limitation on the Assembly’s competence. This gives the Assembly the same powers to modify the law on reserved matters as the Scottish Parliament has in relation to Scotland.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I believe it means—and I will write to noble Lords if I am incorrect in this, as I may be—that, in determining what is necessary for the purposes of subsection (3), which relates to the test of ancillary and necessary, you cannot allege that it is necessary that the law is passed unless it is necessary that it is an Assembly law. It cannot be necessary for another legislative body. I think that is what it means. If I am wrong, I will write to the noble Lord and copy the letter to other noble Lords. I may be wrong.

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

I am, of course, disappointed by the Minister’s response, but I should be disappointed at least once in a debate in this Parliament. I am grateful for the support from the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay and Lady Gale, and for the interventions by the noble Lords, Lord Thomas of Gresford and Lord Crickhowell.

The consolidation of the law is about the intelligibility of the law and the transparency of political activity. I will continue to pursue this with greater vigour and will call upon my distinguished academic colleagues throughout the Principality and beyond to get on and do it. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Elis-Thomas

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) : House of Lords
Monday 31st October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his assistance on this matter. He is right that this provision gives that convention statutory force but, of course, it does contain the word “normally”; therefore it is still subject to the will of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. He is right that in normal circumstances that would be impossible to do.

[Lord Elis-Thomas (Non-Afl)]

I do not wish to anticipate any major contribution that I may have to make on my own amendment on the word “normally” later on, but I do not believe that the Minister has really answered the question from my colleague the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, who asked whether the Parliament of the United Kingdom could legislate for a referendum on the future of the National Assembly without the consent of the Assembly. It seems to me that if we are legislating, as we are in the Bill, for the convention relating to the legislative consent Motions to be part of Welsh law and devolution law, then surely, in a situation where the future of the Assembly were subject to a referendum, consent should be sought. Or is the Minister allowing a little room for the removal of the Assembly without the consent of its Members?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I think the noble Lord knows me better than to think that that is on my mind at all. I was not the person who brought forward this amendment. I am unable to rewrite the rules on the sovereignty of Parliament; I was merely pointing out the legal position in relation to this. There is a very clear declaration that is consistent with the Silk recommendation which was discussed by the Silk commission. It is not to be anticipated in any way that this Parliament would wish to do anything relating to the National Assembly except celebrate its existence. I make that absolutely clear; it is my position and the position of my party, as the noble Lord knows. I just point out that this cannot overrule the rules of science and of parliamentary sovereignty that exist independently of the amendment.

Draft Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Elis-Thomas

Thursday 29th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, that almost sounded like a job application. I know that the noble Lord is very proficient in the law and in Welsh. At the moment, it is done on an informal basis, but the noble Lord has a serious point, which no doubt will be taken forward as the draft Bill proceeds.

[Lord Elis-Thomas (PC)]

My Lords, this is not a job application, as the Minister knows. Is he aware that the National Assembly for Wales’s constitutional and legislative affairs committee will continue to adopt subsidiarity, clarity, simplicity and workability as the scrutiny tests for this Bill? Will Her Majesty’s Government listen to the committee’s reports, as the First Minister of Wales has done?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

The noble Lord is quite right about the role of that committee of the National Assembly for Wales. It does very good work and of course it will be listened to. As I understand it, the Secretary of State will be giving evidence to the committee to discuss the Bill. I emphasise that the Bill is in draft form at the moment.