Domestic Abuse Bill

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Blunkett

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 25th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con) [V]]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames. I find myself in broad agreement with what he said about the need to broaden the categories of “personally connected” as set out in the Bill.

My first reaction on reading this part of the Bill was that we certainly need to be more inclusive of other relationships. My second reaction, I must admit, was that there were some relationships that should probably be excluded, as they would dilute the impact of the focus of domestic abuse legislation. For example, the relationship of landlord and tenant, without more to support a clear connection between them in a domestic setting, should not be within the scope of the Bill per se. I think that was a point was touched on by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee.

Amendment 6, in the name of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, would extend the legislation explicitly to guardians. I listened carefully to what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, said, about the fact that this is probably, or may well be, covered by the legislation. I suspect that is true in relation to children in Clause 3, but I think it does not deal with the situation between A and B in Clause 2. I think that was the point the noble and learned Baroness was making, unless I am mistaken. Maybe I have misunderstood that; I look forward to hearing what my noble friend the Minister and, indeed, the noble and learned Baroness, in concluding this part of our discussion, say in that regard.

But it seems to me that guardianship certainly needs to be included quite obviously for both areas. I just wonder whether it should cover the situation where A or B has been a guardian and is no longer a guardian, because I would expect the close nexus—the close relationship—to continue.

I have much sympathy with the case put forward on Amendment 7, in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Wilcox of Newport and Lady Watkins of Tavistock, and my noble friend Lady Altmann; with Amendment 11, in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Grey-Thompson and Lady Finlay of Llandaff, which was so ably, emotionally and correctly supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Surbiton; and Amendment 12, in the names of my noble friend Lady Altmann and the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox.

Essentially, consideration of this part of the Bill relates to what relationships the domestic abuse legislation should cover. Like the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, I think that the starting point should be: would we want to exclude anything where people are in the same household? As I said, some relationships, such as landlord and tenant, should maybe be excluded, but otherwise I see no reason to exclude anything where there is a close and trusted relationship, as there would be in the context of carers. Indeed, we really should recognise the realities of abuse today and the society in which we live, and that, in this pioneering piece of legislation, we are setting out the principles and frameworks of the law in this area for years to come. We should get it right and be bold.

I say that too in the context of Amendment 8 on forced marriages, so ably set out by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. Some of the scenarios may possibly be caught by the Bill’s provisions where a forced marriage has already taken place, but there might be problems if the marriage was null and void . Clearly, it does not cover the situation where the marriage has not yet taken place. There is a very powerful, almost unanswerable, case to extend the definition of “personally connected” to cover this situation.

The same is true of Amendment 9, on domestic servitude, tabled by the noble and learned Baroness and by my noble friend Lord Randall of Uxbridge. No doubt there are provisions in modern slavery legislation to deal with that scenario, just as there would be provisions relating to forced marriage and so on, but there is a powerful case for extending the protection and all the measures of the domestic abuse legislation to these situations.

As I said, we need to recognise the realities of life in Britain and the country we are governing today. I will listen to my noble friend’s response with interest, but there is a clear case for extending the definition of “personally connected”, which we are debating.

[Lord Blunkett (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, it is always a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Bourne. I find myself on the horns of a dilemma. At Second Reading, I tried to set out how important it is that this legislation encapsulates, as far as we humanly can, all the possibilities that, if not included, would be felt to have let down the people we seek to help in years to come. I used the example of the first effort back in 2003, in the domestic violence and victims Act, for which I was responsible as Home Secretary, where we clearly took a step forward but a very tentative one. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, for understanding and supporting what I was trying to say.

My dilemma is this. While I very clearly understand the thrust of the amendments and the critical nature of getting right the definition of “personally connected” to make the Bill work and watertight, and to enable the Crown Prosecution Service and the judiciary to use it as an effective tool, there are real dangers in some of the amendments—not in the essence of what is sought but in the extent to which they make it difficult to decide which Act is to be used, first by the police in filling in form 124, then by the Crown Prosecution Service, and subsequently in our adversarial court system, where a substantial case has been made and knocked down because of the detailed nature of the definitions involved.

So I have some sympathy, as I normally have, with the Minister in how to get this right. For instance, I agreed wholeheartedly with the description given by the noble Lord, Lord Marks, and with the very thoughtful and powerful presentation from the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, reflecting the desire of the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, to see carers involved, and I cannot see any reason why we cannot involve them. But we then drift into the situation of a friend who regularly comes round to the house and seeks to sexually abuse someone. Surely that would fall under the Sexual Offices Act 2003, for which I was also responsible. The wider you make the definition, the more difficult it will be to get a successful prosecution if you use the wrong piece of legislation.

The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, knows more about this than I ever will, because, although I was responsible for trying to develop policy, she had to implement it. It seems that we should try to do what we tried to do recently in another Act: the Minister should, once again, get people to come together to look at how the very sensible amendments being moved this evening can be tightened up, so that the legislation is broad enough to encapsulate the concerns that have, quite rightly, been raised. At the same time, it should not be loose enough to allow a very clever barrister—we have a number of them in our House—to run rings round the prosecution.

Tonight has been an excellent example of how the real concerns that exist out there can be reflected, as were the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, in commencing the Committee stage this afternoon, when she referred to the organisations and campaigners, all of whom are helping us to get this legislation right.

Local Authorities: Fair Funding Review

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Blunkett

Thursday 14th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is right about the importance of deprivation but she is wrong to say that we have not yet issued the policy. It was out for consultation until 21 February, as she will know, and we are now considering the responses. Even in that consultation we recognise the importance of deprivation in relation to, for example, adult social services, children’s social services, fire and rescue services, and public health. The noble Baroness makes a powerful point but it is recognised and the policy is still being considered.

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

Will the Minister, for whom I have a great deal of time, admit to the House that it is impossible to have a fair funding formula if you are dealing only with the specific grants that he outlined in his Answer and the business rate arrangements now being put in place? With the removal of the revenue support grant, it is impossible to have the distribution to which he has just referred.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord very much for those kind comments. The redistributive element that he referenced will be done through the business rate retention scheme, which will become live at the same time in 2020. I very much agree with him about the need also to bear in mind government grants, of which there are many, in addition to the local government settlement and many programmes such as the Future High Streets Fund, the Coastal Communities Fund, the Stronger Towns Fund and so on that we have seen recently.

Yorkshire: Devolution

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Blunkett

Tuesday 12th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for welcoming the clarity of the approach we have announced today, as I believe he did. I recognise that he is not totally happy with our response but this is not just about listening to local authorities, although that is part of the issue. The One Yorkshire deal would not be consistent with our approach to other metro city mayors as coherent economic entities, as I am sure the noble Lord would see if he looked at our approach there. The fact that that makes more sense crystallised the thinking behind the letter that went out today.

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it would be perverse in the extreme for a group of authorities that agreed to a devolution deal and an elected city mayor, then reneged on it and found out that authorities to the north were already talking about working together on their own deal, not to go back to their original commitment and draw down tens of millions of pounds of public money to invest in local services and infrastructure, at the same time as building an incremental approach to any future One Yorkshire deal?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I find myself in total agreement with the noble Lord. I agree that it makes perfect sense for the Sheffield City Region authority to progress. I understand that it is due to meet a week on Thursday to look at this matter; I very much hope that it processes the issue and moves forward because £900 million over a 30-year period is attached to the Sheffield City Region project. I hope it goes ahead and I hope that other parts of Yorkshire follow, in the way I suggested to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace.

Local Government

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Blunkett

Tuesday 27th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Baroness makes a persuasive point, but as I have just indicated, these are two separate things that are sitting alongside each other. The fair funding formula will be looking at redressing some of the imbalances that exist at the moment in a relative sense, but alongside that of course is the spending review next year, which, hopefully, will be doing some of the things that the noble Baroness and I—and, indeed, many others—would want it to do.

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

My Lords, as the Minister knows, this is an incredibly complex area in which there is great misunderstanding. I have an enormous amount of time for the Minister. Perhaps he would explain to the House how there is going to be a fair distribution formula when the whole system from 2020 depends on local council tax and revenue raising locally and the distribution of the business rate, which falls where it falls?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Lord for those comments. The formula that we are looking at is in essence about redistribution. It is in three separate phases. The first is to look at the relative needs of different areas. The consultation on that has concluded and we will be publishing its results when the second phase of the consultation, looking at relative resources, starts in December. The third stage, which will be in late spring or summer next year, will look at allocations and transitional arrangements. The noble Lord is right that the situation has its complexities; there is a simplicity about the aims, but the difficulty will be in their delivery. As I say, though, that sits alongside looking at resources and the spending review that will go alongside it, so those are two separate matters. The business rate retention scheme, at 75%, will also kick in when the fair funding formula comes in, in April 2020.

Yorkshire: Devolution

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Blunkett

Wednesday 17th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, to reiterate, there is no change in the policy on the Sheffield city region. We have always regarded it as something that should be carried forward. We have legislation on this and we have had elections on this. Whatever his views on the broader Yorkshire deal, the elected mayor is seeking to ensure that the Sheffield city deal proceeds. As I said, detailed information has been sent to the Secretary of State. He will respond to that documentation and it would be wrong for me to do so, even if I were in a position to, which I am not.

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as chairman of the Sheffield City Partnership board. Does the Minister agree that, to move on from the Sheffield city regional deal, it is important to establish that deal and provide money for both the elected mayor’s office and for the regional policy to move forward? Does he agree that any future incremental move from the Sheffield city regional deal is highly dependent on people getting their act together now and putting the people of the region first, rather than their political predilections?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I substantially agree with what the noble Lord said. However, let me reassure him that £1 million has been given to the mayor for mayoral capacity-building—there is money for the mayor’s function. He is seeking to ensure that there is proper consultation in line with the legal advice that the Sheffield city region has had, so that we can move this forward as the noble Lord suggests.

Integrated Communities

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Blunkett

Thursday 15th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend very much indeed for his comments and for the work that he does in chairing that excellent Select Committee. Without hesitation, I can say that the person who is driving this forward is, of course, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, Sajid Javid. He is not doing it alone, as he indicated in the Statement, because it involves many other government departments. It is cross-government and involves education in particular. We also mentioned the Ministry of Justice in relation to the situation regarding marriage. But I assure the House that the person who is driving it—and he is driving it very hard and is committed to it—is my right honourable friend Sajid Javid.

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, on whose committee I am pleased to serve under his excellent chairmanship. I also draw attention to a non-pecuniary interest on the register. If I may bowl the Minister a bit of a googly—I suspect that he might agree with me, but he certainly will not want to say so—there is a bit of a paradox in the very welcome updating of the Life in the UK Test and the extraordinarily out-of-date booklet that goes with it, which actually ensures that those who seek naturalisation have learnt something about British citizenship while their children and, to pick up the words of the Statement, those whose heritage goes back to Norman times, do not have a mention at all in terms of education for citizenship in this document. Will the Minister inquire whether a cleaner in Downing Street could find the two or three pages that obviously got ripped out inadvertently before the document was published?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, very much indeed. I know that he plays a vital part on that Select Committee and I join in his praise of the chairman, the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson. On his question, I have great sympathy with the point he is making. I was asked by a friend to provide some testing of model questions—which did not come with model answers, rather curiously—one of which was, “Was Richard III left-handed or right-handed?”. I had absolutely no idea at all and still have no idea. I do not know whether noble Lords can help me, but it struck me as a rather strange question relating to British life. It obviously needs a little attention.

Borderlands

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Blunkett

Thursday 25th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord may be referring to the issue of the all-Yorkshire plan; I think that is what he is getting at. He will be aware that we are proceeding towards mayoral elections in the Sheffield City Region this year. There is the prospect after that, if the parties agree, of an all-Yorkshire deal down the line, as it were. But that is something for the area to come to the Government with proposals on. We have not had any concrete proposals, but if the area comes forward with some, we will of course look at them.

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

My Lords, can the Minister confirm that there is a potential compromise—much welcomed, it has to be said—regarding going forward with the Sheffield City Region mayor? Would the Government consider weighing in and riding with that compromise?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I know that the noble Lord takes a particular interest in this, for understandable reasons, from the Sheffield perspective. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has written to the authorities in the Sheffield area outlining a compromise. I think that a response has come back and we are now looking at it. There is certainly a sign of some compromise emerging that will suit everybody in the Yorkshire region.

Local Government Finance Settlement

Debate between Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Blunkett

Thursday 15th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, for her questions. In terms of where she is sitting, she is much closer to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, than I am and I apologise if I misheard the point that he made. It appears that that may possibly be the case.

As to these announcements being made at this time of year, as the noble Baroness indicated, the fact that they happen every year at this point means that that is the cycle. It will always be the case that some government business is taken at this time of year and there is nothing particularly to be read into that. I understand what she is saying about the £240 million but it is additional money and is nowhere near all the money that is spent on adult social care. I should make the point that it is additional money and will make a difference, and of course there is always the option of moving forward on the precept with additional spending next year and the year after, which, over the two-year period, comes to some £900 million. That is a significant amount.

In relation to the school funding announcement, I hope the noble Baroness will understand that it is not something I am briefed on at the moment, but I will ensure that she gets a response to what I think was an announcement made by the Department for Education on the issue. I hope that that is appropriate.

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

My Lords, I do not have a registered interest but I do have an elderly mother-in-law in her mid-80s who has been in hospital for five weeks, so I have a personal as well as a more general interest in this area. I shall be brief. I want to explore the short-termism of the announcement, leaving aside the post-truth nature of the Statement that the Minister has had to read out to us today. The two years of precept increases which are available if local government is able to implement them are, if I am right, to be followed by clawback. If the money is spent on social care, as we all wish, at the end of the period either further deep cuts will have to be made to existing services which are already being cut to the bone, or the services that will have been put in place using the precept will have to be withdrawn. Either way it is an unacceptable prospect. I wonder if the Minister will be able to talk to his colleagues about thinking again about something that is offering a very small short-term plaster followed by an extremely deep wound. That will reverberate around us in terms of the distrust that already exists in politics. From my time in local government I know that it is now fairly obvious that the most deprived areas have been deprived of money the most, and that the most deprived areas are those that are the least likely to be able to raise sums to deal with and meet the challenge of social care. If the Chancellor can win a battle or two in Downing Street, surely intermediate care and perhaps bringing forward the better care fund would be a way of bridging the gap between those who are in hospital and need substantial support and those in the community who need continuing support—and let us just get this right.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, for his contribution. I should say first that I do not recognise the charge of “post-truth”. We have responded to what is an immediate need with immediate action. On the particular charge of clawback, that is not the case. What will happen is that it will be 6% over the three years, but of course the base will increase in each of those years. I do not recognise the accusation of clawback as being in any way accurate.

On the broader point about fair funding, it is well made, and I have indicated a commitment to the fair funding formula and suggested, which I will again, that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State will be providing more information on it in the new year because this is key to getting things right over the longer period. I have also indicated that the better care fund, and now the improved better care fund, will have had £6 billion invested in it over the period. It will contribute to the integration of health and social care which, as I say, is key to getting this right. That is why the money is needed both now and in the interim, but we are expecting far better integration by the end of the Parliament in relation to health and social care, as well as addressing the issue of delayed discharges, which should ease the pressures that we are seeing at the moment.