Product Regulation and Metrology Bill [HL]

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 8th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle. I declare my interests as set out in the register.

This has been a very interesting debate, not least because of the wonderful maiden contribution of the noble Baroness, Lady Winterton of Doncaster. It was a speech of great elegance and humour. I congratulate her and look forward to her future contributions.

I thank the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Leong, for setting out the objectives and purposes of the legislation with commendable clarity. The Government set out their intention to update product safety legislation in the King’s Speech in July 2024. It is important to note, however, that the scope of the legislation is broader than just product safety. It encompasses, for example, environmental legislation, which will have consequences in relation to devolved competencies. I will come to these.

I understand that one of the aims of the legislation is to keep pace with advances such as AI. This is a very sensible move. Dealing with areas such as this will help business and so promote growth. To that extent, it is laudable. Along with other noble Lords, I welcome this legislation. Its general thrust is right, although I have specific concerns that I will come to.

Another aim of the legislation is to clarify the role of online marketplaces in relation to product safety. Their great growth makes this, again, a sensible and welcome development.

The legislation we are considering is, of course, framework legislation. Substantive content will arise only when the Secretary of State exercises the relevant powers. It can scarcely be otherwise. Detailed product safety and other such regulation should not be contained in primary legislation. It is true that, under the legislation, the Secretary of State will be able to make regulations to correspond with relevant EU legislation—or indeed to not correspond if this is the decided and desired course of action. That too seems commendable and sensible. To proceed in that way will help preserve regulatory stability across the UK and the EU.

I hope that this objective—or at least the option to be exercised in many cases—of the alignment of regulations between the UK and the EU will receive a wider welcome in your Lordships’ House, particularly when there is a danger of the deviation from safety laws within the UK. There may be occasions when alignment with the EU is not the correct approach, but that can be debated. It seems entirely reasonable that, as the EU updates its regulations, the UK needs powers to do the same and to follow or diverge, as the case arises.

The impact assessment of the Bill sets out the dangers of not acting. These include business costs, complexity, uncertainty and confusion. Consumer safety risks, businesses choosing not to supply the GB market and, as I have noted, UK internal market divergence are also possibilities and would not be desirable.

I welcome the general thrust of the legislation. There are certain points which I wish to explore and probe a bit further, if I may. The first relates to specific consumer safety issues which have been referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Foster of Bath, and just now by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett. I agree that it would be good to hear a timescale for dealing with the issues of consumer safety in relation to e-scooters and lithium-ion batteries. These are matters of great urgency which need action. The briefing that we received from the London Fire Brigade and others was very helpful in this regard.

I would also welcome comments from the Minister about the approach of the Government in relation to online marketplaces. Is it the intention to deal with this globally—to have consumer safety applying across both online marketplaces and the traditional retail market—or are we going to see two separate approaches to the issues? Will he indicate the Government’s thinking on this? With the great growth of online marketplaces, through institutions such as Temu and so on, action is needed. Once again, the briefings that noble Lords received from Which? magazine, Electrical Safety First and others have been very helpful in this regard.

I have a major concern relating to devolution. The Bill centralises decision-making in the hands of the Westminster Government. I appreciate that the UK Government are seeking legislative consent Motions from the devolved nations. It would be good to hear from the Minister the likely timescale for these legislative consent Motions to come forward. However, the matter does not stop there. This framework legislation represents not just product safety—which I appreciate is a reserved matter and therefore certainly within our competence—but matters such as environmental law, which is very much a devolved matter where the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Parliament, the Senedd, and indeed Northern Ireland will rightly have a role.

Under the legislation, it is not clear what that role is to be or, indeed, if there is to be a role: it is not set out. Is consent from the devolved bodies to be required, as should be the case? There is no mention even of consultation. So I would appreciate it if the Minister could clear up a matter that will certainly be important going forward. The legislation is much wider than the narrow title of the Bill suggests. Indeed, there is considerable power within the scope of the Bill in relation to the marketing and use of products to ensure their efficiency and effectiveness, not just to mitigate safety risks.

With these important caveats, I welcome the general thrust of this legislation, but I would appreciate it if the Minister could clarify these matters.

Covid-19 (Public Services Committee Report)

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Thursday 22nd July 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Pitkeathley) (Lab)]

The noble Lord, Lord Dubs, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con) [V]]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, who spoke compellingly about collaboration. It has been a pleasure and an honour to be a member of the Public Services Committee, which has behaved throughout in a collegiate and constructive way, and I thank my committee colleagues. Like others, I would like to thank our excellent chair, the noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong of Hilltop, who has demonstrated throughout hard work, dedication and great good humour. Thanks also go to our secretariat—the team of Tristan Stubbs, Claire Coast-Smith and Mark Hudson —for their utter professionalism.

Our first report, as has been stated, commenced physically in February last year, before the first lockdown, but we quickly moved to working virtually. Work was carried out remarkably smoothly on our report A Critical Juncture for Public Services: Lessons from COVID-19, which was published in November last year. I thank officials, broadcasters and all who made this possible. I will focus on three areas in particular, although, as has been demonstrated by those serving on the committee, our report was wide-ranging. I would like to look at prevention and early intervention, then at local delivery, and then at the importance of voluntary organisations.

On prevention and early intervention, a key area, the evidence that we saw was clear. People who are obese, who smoke, who are diabetic and who live in unhealthy social, economic and physical environments are at a far higher risk of dying from Covid-19. That seems now almost beyond challenge. The Prime Minister himself nailed the danger of obesity when he spoke of Covid-19. Yet the Government in their response to the report did not recognise these factors explicitly, rather surprisingly, saying that further analysis of the evidence will inform our learning. I hope that the Government accept the very clear evidence, and it will be good to hear from the Minister on this.

Our inquiry heard from Sir Michael Marmot about the underfunding of prevention services, and we heard that obesity rates were highest in deprived areas. It is laudable that the Conservative manifesto of 2019 commits to extension of healthy life expectancy by five years by 2035. A litmus test of the Government’s approach will be the attitude to the recently published national food strategy, the Dimbleby report, the last part of which was published last week. That report is clear on action at producer level to reduce salt and sugar in foods, just as we have done successfully under a Conservative Government for soft drinks. That action would produce results. I hope that the murmurings of some on the libertarian extremes, who suggest that exhortation is sufficient, are ignored, given that they are the voices of a few people who have not been following the evidence of the pandemic, and who are committed to an imagined libertarian Valhalla. Not only will positive action help hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of our fellow country men and women, it will also of course ease pressures on the NHS and, indeed, on the economy from the impact of ill health. The details of how the Government are to carry out future arrangements are awaited with interest.

The importance of preventive services in the Ministry of Justice and the Home Office is also highlighted in our report. The Government’s response does not pick up on how there will be investment here in preventive services for those who have been impacted by addiction, homelessness and poor mental health—evidence that we received on this from Revolving Doors. By the same token, early intervention on education, particularly as disadvantaged children have fallen further behind, is crucial. Beyond the existing pupil premium, we need to pick up the proposals on catch-up that Sir Kevan Collins put forward.

On localisation, in the memorable phrase spoken earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, running England out of London is not on. I agree with that, as does the report. Local provision, whether through the public sector or voluntary organisations, is vital; it is familial, trusted, responsive and fleet-footed, and it is more likely to be flexible. We need to recognise that through public health teams and more local funding, not just because of a democratic deficit but because of lack of local provision, certainly contributing to the disease and to death. I welcome the progress that has been made on metro mayors, and I anticipate more—but much more than that is needed for the localisation that is necessary.

The third area of our report that I wanted to cover related to the importance of voluntary organisations. As I have indicated, they are trusted and familial. Their reach is extraordinary, as I found during our inquiry. For example, Ian Jones, the chief executive of Volunteer Cornwall, told us of 4,500 Cornish charities. Many local councils pick up and work with the voluntary sector. Camden Council, for example, relies on Hampstead Volunteer Corps to help with food distribution, and we welcome the development of the new outsourcing playbook by the Cabinet Office. It is welcome, but we need to see it being followed by ensuring that public service commissioners prioritise social value when contracting services. We look forward to that.

In short, there is a lot to do, and I look forward to hearing from the Minister on taking things forward—in all our interests, but particularly in the interests of those most disadvantaged, which, as we have heard, includes the BAME community, as well as the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities. Generally, those at the bottom of the pile have been hardest hit, and the Government must do more to help them.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Pitkeathley) (Lab)]

The noble Lord, Lord Desai, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Sikka.

Wellbeing of Future Generations Bill [HL]

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 25th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con) [V]]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, who is always committed and who I know has done massive work in the intergenerational policy area. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bird, who as always showed himself to be passionate, committed and dedicated. It takes no small effort to bring a measure such as this to your Lordships’ House. There has been a lot of work behind it, so I congratulate him on that.

I believe that this Bill is important and very timely. As the noble Lord, Lord Bird, said, it owes much to the Welsh example. It places improving well-being and intergenerational concerns centre stage. That is not to say that there are not laws now that do just that, or that we would have difficulty with this new principle being brought in, but it is certainly not true of all measures and policies.

This week the Public Services Select Committee, on which I sit, met two very senior civil servants—high flyers, the brightest and the best, well intentioned, sincere and hard-working. They told the committee that this Government, and indeed successive Governments, have always been committed to preventive measures, early intervention and long-term planning. One has to ask, then: why are we in the situation we are in? There is no doubting the good intentions of successive Governments, but they are far from the reality, alas, in fields as diverse as health, social care, social policy, home policy, justice policy and so on.

We need to take account of the long term—a problem that has beset UK Governments for a long time. I believe that this legislation will certainly help. Two very current crises highlight the importance of this Bill—first, the pandemic. In October 2016 the UK Government held a national pandemic flu exercise. So far, so good. One consequence was that the exercise found there were not enough ventilators. No action was taken; short-termism triumphed. As we emerge from the shadow of the pandemic, we will need careful, clear forward planning.

Secondly, the climate crisis and the drive to net zero demand imaginative global thinking to deal with this very serious issue. I recall meeting the Prime Minister of Tuvalu before the Paris conference. He told me his nation would cease to exist because it would be overwhelmed by the oceans. Oblivion beckoned. The climate crisis clearly demands action too.

The current generation of youngsters, teenagers and twentysomethings will carry forward the mistakes and inactions of our generation and earlier generations. Let us take the action that helps to alleviate that burden and help plan for the future with this legislation.

Recognised Auction Platforms (Amendment and Miscellaneous Provisions) Regulations 2021

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Thursday 15th April 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that very clear introduction. I recognise his expertise—probably more particularly on the financial side rather than the climate change side—and I have several questions which I hope he will be able to answer but, if he is unable to bring to bear the relevant expertise, I am quite happy for him to write to me.

I support these regulations; their intention seems quite unexceptional. The Government have established a domestic emissions trading scheme based on our previous expertise and experience in Europe to replace the EU Emissions Trading Scheme—that is the background to this. On Monday, we were discussing accounting obligations placed on the United Kingdom in relation to the existing scheme—or I should perhaps say, in our case, the previously existing scheme—which will of course go on for some time. Although there are remaining accounting obligations, we have clearly left the EU trading system and are now entering into a new system, although some of the furniture of the scheme is clearly familiar from the previous EU scheme.

The approach of the Government, as exemplified by these regulations, is to pursue a domestic ETS rather than a carbon tax, and I applaud that. I welcome the clear emphasis on decarbonisation and towards renewables at the centre of the Government’s policy, and that they are favourable towards nuclear too. As I say, these regulations are part of our domestic emissions trading scheme and are clearly designed to provide a smooth transition for effective carbon pricing in the United Kingdom.

My noble friend said, quite correctly, that the scope of the UK ETS includes presently energy-intensive industries and the power generation and aviation sectors, as it did previously and as the EU scheme does. There is clearly an attraction in that linkage but some respondents in the consultation that we undertook favoured extending the ETS to other sectors, and the Government have indicated that they are not unfavourable to looking at that some time in the future. For example, the Climate Change Committee has suggested agriculture and land use. Could my noble friend indicate the Government’s willingness to look at an expansion of the scheme, and when that will be? What will inform the discussion and the choice some time in the future? Could he also say whether we will want to talk to—I assume we will—our previous EU partners, our partners in Europe and in other countries, and how we will arrive at that decision? That would be most helpful.

The United Kingdom is committed by law to reducing emissions to net zero by 2050 and the UK ETS is clearly vital in that endeavour. Could my noble friend indicate the level of ambition that the United Kingdom will have in setting the cap for allowances for the UK scheme, as opposed to what our ambition would be if constrained by the European scheme? How will we approach that? Will we be more ambitious and, if so, how much more ambitious than within the EU scheme?

I welcome the structure of the first phase of the UK ETS from 2021 to 2030, which matches the EU ETS phase 4 length. Most consultees similarly welcomed that development. Will my noble friend confirm that it is intended that the United Kingdom’s operational approach—I stress “operational approach”—to the ETS will broadly mirror that of the EU scheme, while not precisely, of course? That seems sensible and is the conclusion that I draw from reading around the scheme, but it would be good to have his say-so and expertise on that.

Lastly, I would welcome confirmation from my noble friend, if he is able to give it, that the United Kingdom intends to be a trail-blazer on this area in general. I do not just mean the ETS. I know that the Prime Minister has great ambition in this area, and we are hosting COP 26, obviously. There is a massive opportunity for the United Kingdom here—not just on COP 26, of course, but looking to the future more widely. I mean not just our doing the right thing internationally, although the United Kingdom rightly prides itself on doing so, but in ensuring that we establish a strong green economy with sustainable jobs and prosperity domestically.

Budget Statement

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Friday 12th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I congratulate new noble Lords on their maiden speeches.

The Chancellor has, throughout his tenure, met the extraordinary needs of this extraordinary time—most notably with the job retention scheme, which has blocked the nightmare of mass unemployment. In the Budget, he has, I believe, skilfully balanced the need to continue massive government borrowing, with a national debt of over 100% of GNP, with the prospect of paying down the debt over time. Borrowing is currently very cheap, and the decision to raise corporation tax to 25% by the end of the Parliament seems sensible given that our rates are currently the lowest in the G20.

I think most people in the country will feel that the Budget is fair and sensible. I will briefly welcome two particular measures. First, continuing VAT at the reduced rate of 5% for hospitality, holiday accommodation and attractions until 30 September 2021, and then phasing back to 20% from 31 March 2022, seems right. Secondly, the plastic packaging tax is due to come into effect in April 2022; it should help to reduce plastic waste by encouraging change in producers’ behaviour. It is a good measure but it needs to go further and faster, particularly when contrasted with what other countries are doing.

Finally, as we approach the Glasgow COP, I hope that we will announce further action to support our green agenda. However, on the whole, I think it an outstanding Budget from an outstanding Chancellor.

Ministerial and other Maternity Allowances Bill

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 22nd February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con) [V]]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, who made some interesting points. I thank the Minister for setting out the position in relation to this Bill. I support this short, focused Bill, and believe that nothing should be done to delay or thwart it, although I have sympathy with the points raised by my noble friend Lady Noakes on the language in it. I wish my right honourable friend Suella Braverman well with her maternity, and I hope with her maternity leave—as others have noted, this measure is long overdue. Like others, I note the massive contribution of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, who is speaking later in this debate. She was indeed a trailblazer.

With that said, there are wider interests which need to be considered, and I am grateful to my noble friend for admitting that these will be brought forward; the sooner, the better. Setting best practice for parental leave across the board for other employers and employments is something which has been neglected by successive Governments. We need to deal with paternity leave, to consider the position of adopted and surrogate children, and indeed to look at shared parental leave, as the Minister acknowledged. I am grateful that this is going to be part of the Government’s agenda. Something on the timeline for this would be welcome, as we do not want to lose the momentum as we are taking this first welcome step in relation to maternity leave. Good employers should be following practices set out by the Government and by Parliament, so we need to step up to the plate, as has been noted for sick leave, grandparental leave, carers, victims of domestic abuse, and so on. All these can be considered, I hope.

With the indulgence of the House, notwithstanding the importance of those issues, I will touch on another matter which is long overdue, and particularly relates to people in your Lordships’ House. That is the subject of unpaid Ministers. I had the great pleasure of being a paid Minister, and I hope that gives me some latitude to speak on this. It is said without in any way undermining our excellent Ministers, both paid and unpaid, but in this day and age it must not be right that we expect people to serve and not be paid. I certainly know of one potential Minister who was asked to serve but felt unable to do so because she was not going to be paid. That was not under this Prime Minister, I add, but it seems wrong in principle. Eight of our 25 Ministers in your Lordships’ House are unpaid, which is nearly a third. We should not expect people to serve but not get the rate of pay attached to the job. We would not expect that in industry or elsewhere in the public service; it is not right in a modern democracy. It should not be a condition of the job that you are unpaid; I hope my noble friend will undertake that this will be looked at by the Government.

I recognise that there is a legislative impediment to increasing the number of paid Ministers, and that this has impeded successive Governments of all colours; it is not particular to this Government by any means. But it would be a relatively simple matter, and I imagine non-controversial, to amend or repeal the measure. I cannot believe that it is right in the 21st century that we are not paying Ministers for doing the job. It seems like something which belongs to another age, such as quill pens or horse-drawn hansom cabs, perhaps more appropriate to the age of Trollope—Anthony, not Joanna—and it is high time that we moved on.

EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Friday 8th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con) [V]]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Carlile. He certainly knows a thing or two about security, and I associate myself entirely with the concerns he raised. I congratulate my noble friend Lord Wharton of Yarm on his excellent maiden speech.

Like many others, I am pleased and relieved that we have a deal and that we have averted the nightmare of a no-deal disaster, as I always believed we would. To that extent, of course, I congratulate the Prime Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Frost, and the negotiating team. For goods there are to be no tariffs and no quotas, and that is good news indeed. I believe that the deal also supports peace in Northern Ireland, which for me was fundamental. The deal in that regard has, of course, been welcomed by the European Union and particularly by Ireland.

However, there are still important issues that need to be addressed. Like my noble friend Lord Bridges and many others, I believe strongly that we need to map out what we as the United Kingdom are going to do—I very much agree with my noble and learned friend Lord Garnier on the importance of retaining the union; we should not take it for granted. We are geographically European. How do we now work alongside Europe for the future? That is fundamental to this debate.

There is a large hole in the agreement with regard to services, which represent 80% of our economy. I am very concerned that we need to avoid haemorrhaging of our superiority here in trading terms within Europe.

Like others, I am also concerned about Erasmus. We have a dog’s dinner, not to say a pig’s breakfast, where universities in Ulster are still participating and their fees will be paid through Dublin. That represents a danger to the union too.

I am relieved that we have an agreement, but much still needs to be done.

Spending Review 2020

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Thursday 3rd December 2020 Grand Committee

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con) [V]]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, and I thank my noble friend Lord Agnew for introducing this debate. This short-term spending review is against a backdrop of an economy that, as my noble friend said, is in greater decline than it has been for 300 years. That is the backdrop to the challenges we face.

I believe that central to the question of the review is how bad the economic forecasts are looking, and at the heart of this is the uneven effect of the crisis on the regions and communities of the United Kingdom. I join the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, in his concluding remark by saying how central to this are decentralisation are devolution. This has to be addressed, so that we can provide more local innovation and more local solutions, and I welcome the Government’s commitment to this.

Levelling up is indeed central to this agenda, and devolution will help in that regard. Protection of the low paid and key workers is fundamental, as is helping the young, who have had their education disrupted by this pandemic, and apprenticeships of course have been lost.

The spending review confirms funding for the Government’s 10-point plan for green recovery, and I very much welcome that. I believe that more will need to be done against the background of Glasgow, COP 26 and the re-engagement of the United States via the Biden presidency embracing once more the Paris Agreement on climate change. More money and more commitment will be needed, but I very much welcome what we have done so far.

To my mind, the Chancellor and the Treasury have performed generally well in this crisis, although I do fundamentally disagree with the percentage cut in UK overseas aid. It is falling anyway, obviously, because it is a percentage of a declining income, so less is being given. I cannot help feeling that it is against our enlightened self-interest, as well as meaning that we are giving up our very strong moral leadership in the world.

Parliamentary Constituencies Bill

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 8th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tyler (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I wish to speak to Amendment 15 in my name. Again, I am delighted to have the support of the noble Lord, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth, who has consistently endorsed my plea that the especially distinct identity of Cornwall should be recognised in this legislation. I am also pleased to have the support of my noble friend Lord Teverson, who has given great public service to Cornwall.

Members will know that every single group leader on Cornwall Council has also endorsed my proposition since we discussed this matter last, in Grand Committee. As they have reminded us, Parliament has an obligation to recognise the historic and cultural identity of Cornwall. The 2014 inclusion in the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities spelt out that recognition of the unique identity and integrity of Cornwall, and the need to protect the political integrity of its territory. Uniquely, physical geography reinforces that separate identity. If you try to follow the boundary between England and Wales, or England and Scotland, or even Northern Ireland and the Republic, you find yourself following the devil’s own job. Indeed, you can find yourself endlessly crossing invisible lines. On the other hand, if you try to cross the boundary into Cornwall, you will get very wet. The constituency I served ran for miles along that natural boundary; the administrative separation is clear and logical. I would have found it unnecessarily bureaucratic and hugely time consuming to have to deal with Truro and Exeter council officials 100 miles apart, and my constituents would inevitably have suffered had the boundary been removed and a constituency crossed it.

As we all know, physical geography can determine human geography, and never more so than in the history of the Cornish peninsular. I admit that I am strongly prejudiced. As I mentioned in Grand Committee, my ancestors arrived in north Cornwall around 1066. Perhaps more significantly, I am directly descended from Bishop Jonathan Trelawny, on whose behalf the national song records that 20,000 Cornishmen threatened to march on London to secure his release from King James II’s clutches. This reminder of the extent of Cornish self-awareness, this pride in our distinct history and determination to maintain the identity and integrity of Cornwall is obviously very relevant for the Bill. Hence the support of Cornwall Council.

In Grand Committee, the Minister seemed sympathetic to our case, but then went off on a tangent about Devon and other English counties. I admit that the wording of our amendment then may have helped to create a misunderstanding. With the admirable assistance of the Public Bills Office, we have tightened up the amendment for this debate. It refers solely to the electoral integrity of Cornwall.

I acknowledge that the combination of 650 constituencies and the 7.5% margin, which we have just voted for, on either side of the expected base figure of around 72,000 electors will probably mean that breaking out of Cornwall’s traditional boundary may not be necessary in this review. However, it would surely be wholly preferable for the legislation to leave no shadow of doubt, any more than it does with the borders of England with Wales and Scotland. It could be helpful to create this clarity for future boundary reviews. Who knows how the electorates will vary in years to come?

One does not need to be a separatist to acknowledge the strength of this case. Indeed, I believe that the continuing unity of the United Kingdom depends on accepting the lessons of diversity here, as with the other Celtic nations. I beg to move.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con) [V]]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to speak to this amendment, so ably moved by the noble Lord, Lord Tyler. I thank my noble friend the Minister for his characteristically courteous and constructive approach in handling the Bill.

I strongly support the unity of Cornwall in parliamentary terms, so that its constituencies are solely within Cornwall. I appreciate that, as became apparent in Grand Committee, the case for Cornwall is echoed in other parts of the country. My noble friend the Minister made this point very forcefully in Committee. I think he cited Suffolk as an example, while acknowledging the distinctive nature of Cornwall. There are two aspects that make Cornwall unique. First, as the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, said, Cornwall is the only county that borders just one other; it is thus much easier to protect Cornwall’s unique position in any constituency review.

Secondly, and again uniquely, Cornwall has a distinct culture and language which mark it out. In 2014, this status was recognised in the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities. That distinctive character is underlined by the Cornish language and culture. The use of the Cornish language supports the visitor economy in Cornwall and is being used increasingly in tourism. A Conservative Government should be in the vanguard of protecting an indigenous language of these islands and indeed supporting the culture of Cornwall. This amendment presents a real opportunity to do so; a real way of accomplishing that.

I believe that in this legislation we currently protect the coherence of islands in our parliamentary arrangements, which is something that I strongly support. We do this in Orkney and Shetland, the Western Isles, Ynys Môn and the Isle of Wight. If it is right to protect the integrity of specific islands in parliamentary terms, and I believe absolutely that it is, then it is right to protect Cornwall too. It is, after all, an island as well, but one that just happens to be joined to Devon.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Bourne. While he was a Minister in the Government, he did a great deal for Cornwall and visited the county on many occasions. I pay him great credit for that, as I do to my noble friend Lord Tyler for all his work while he represented North Cornwall and formerly the Bodmin constituency.

I came up from Cornwall this morning. It was pretty dark and dingy when I left, but one thing that you are absolutely clear about is when you cross the river Tamar. When I travel back to Cornwall, crossing the Tamar is something that I take note of. It is not like crossing the boundary from Wiltshire into Hampshire, Berkshire into greater London or whatever, it is completely different. It is not just a physical barrier in terms of a river that creates the boundary almost but not quite to the north coast—hence Cornwall is a peninsula rather than an island—but a boundary that marks the difference between what is a Celtic culture in Cornwall and a Saxon culture in Devon. That difference, I believe, is unique within what we refer to as England.

The amendment also refers to the Isles of Scilly. Why should we include them alongside Cornwall when we are not doing that with Devon? It is simply being pragmatic because the last time I looked, the Isles of Scilly have some 2,000 electors and I do not think that we would advocate a special parliamentary constituency for them.

This is an important amendment not just for Cornwall but for the different cultures and traditions that we have within the United Kingdom. As the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, said, the difference in Cornwall is not just its language. It has been recognised under the European Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities which, I stress, is not an EU measure but one from the Council of Europe of which we are still a member.

Another difference between Cornwall and Devon is one that people will be well aware of and is often celebrated: in Cornwall put jam on our scones first and put Cornish clotted cream on top and, in Devon, it is the other way around. We see that not as just a culinary difference, it is something where the Cornish culture marks itself out as being different. This amendment cannot be seen, as the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, said in the last group, as having anything to do with political advantage. At the moment, Cornwall is represented—unfortunately in my belief—by Conservative Members of Parliament who have been properly elected. That may or may not change, but this will make no difference to party advantage. I believe that this amendment is important to our national integrity and is particularly important to the cultural history of Cornwall and that part of the south-west.

Parliamentary Constituencies Bill

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 15th September 2020 Grand Committee

I must apologise to colleagues if I have been even less articulate than usual. Our son, a proper Cornishman, swam the Channel overnight in a relay with three other Hackney pirates. Proud and anxious parents did not get much sleep as we followed their progress.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con) [V]]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Tyler. I am in much agreement with what he said, specifically on Cornwall and Devon. My name is also against Amendment 20. I thank him for his kind words and say that he was making even more sense than usual despite that lack of sleep. I offer him many congratulations on that feat.

I want first to say something in general in relation to amendments in this group before turning to the position relating to Cornwall. I have much sympathy with the argument that a 5% variance in each direction is too strict and rigid. We should not apologise for a principle of equal-size constituencies in population terms in general. We have demonstrated as a country and a Parliament flexibility in relation to some islands, quite rightly, and I cannot see why we should not do the same elsewhere. Clearly, there has to be a restriction on the variation, but we need more flexibility in that direction, particularly in rural areas and particularly in the rural areas of Wales, which I know well. There is a compelling case in relation to Brecon and Radnorshire; I look forward to hearing from the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, who knows a thing or two about that area. There is such a case to be made too in relation to England, Scotland and Northern Ireland. The same principle applies, as the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, said.

In Cornwall, not only does the Tamar provide an effective natural boundary—who can doubt that who has been into Saltash?—but it is also a demarcation of a clear difference between Cornwall and the rest of the country. It has its own cultural attributes, its own language and its own national minority. There is a powerful, compelling case for acting differently in relation to Cornwall as we have done in relation to islands such as Ynys Môn, the Isle of Wight and so on. I agree with the powerful case put by the noble Lord, Lord Tyler.

I shall not delay the Committee too long, but I strongly support this amendment. The Minister, whom I know well and who has listened with great care and attention as he always does in these debates, appeared sympathetic to the case for Cornwall. I hope that he is persuaded of the need to protect in legislation the unity of Cornwall and to write that into the Bill.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Pitkeathley) (Lab)]

Baroness Jolly. No? If the noble Baroness is not with us, we shall go on to the noble Lord, Lord Hain.