Immigration Bill

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Wednesday 5th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con)]

My Lords, I move to resist these amendments and support Clause 12 of the Bill. The effect of Clause 12 means that deportation may be immediate and not suspensive, unless the Home Secretary feels that there is a real risk of serious, irreversible harm to the appellant pending the appeal. I believe that that will apply only in a very limited number of cases. That does not mean that it is not serious for those cases, but could the Minister in responding give some estimate of the number of cases that it is likely to affect? The other important point in relation to Clause 12 is that the Home Secretary has to be convinced that the deportation is conducive to the public good and has to certify that it is consistent with our human rights obligations. Those are two very important qualifications. That is worth stressing.

First, the case for Amendment 31A was persuasively put, but it removes the clause entirely from the Bill and would mean that these out-of-country appeals would become in-country appeals. Given those limitations on the Home Secretary’s ability to act, that would be entirely wrong.

On Amendment 31, again, I understand the points made by my noble friend Lady Hamwee. They were very well put and no doubt prompted by humane considerations that I identify with. However, in addition to the fact that it undermines the ability of the Home Secretary to act where it is conducive to the public good, there are two other fundamental points to be made here. First, in relation to this particular amendment, there is no limitation on how long the child has been in the United Kingdom. They could have been here a matter of weeks or days, or even hours. I appreciate that that is in terms of the framing of this particular amendment, but it is a serious flaw.

In addition, and perhaps more fundamentally, there is the issue of whether children will be brought over to appellants where that is certainly not in the best interests of the child. It may well be in the best interests of the child to remain with other family members—possibly the other parent—overseas in their home country. I realise that that is an unintended consequence of the amendment, but it could well be the case. For those reasons, I am very much against the two amendments.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, as I understand Clause 12, it is all about dealing with appeals and provides a power for the Secretary of State to certify that to require an appellant who is liable to deportation to leave the UK before their appeal is determined would not cause irreversible harm, in which case that person can appeal only from outside the UK. We do not oppose the clause as a whole but these amendments are very useful in trying to probe the intention and practicalities. I have a few questions for the Minister.

I read Hansard from the other place, where questions were raised by my colleague David Hanson. I do not really feel that all the answers given fully addressed the questions to my satisfaction. It would be useful if the noble Lord could help address those. My understanding is that when the Bill was first introduced into the Commons it referred only to foreign criminals, but was then later amended to include all those liable to deportation. Mark Harper, who was then but is no longer the Minister, explained that this included,

“individuals who were being deported from the UK on the ground that their presence would not be conducive to the public good”.—[Official Report, Commons, Immigration Bill Committee, 5/11/13; col. 205.]

That was not in the Bill originally: it was introduced at a later stage.

When the then Minister was pressed on this, he gave a couple of examples such as a gang member or a member of a serious organised crime syndicate. I would not expect the Minister here to give an exhaustive list, and I am not asking for one, but the clause gives considerable discretion to the Home Secretary, or any future Home Secretary, who can determine who is deported under that definition. I should just like to probe further to get more information from the Minister about how that would apply and who it would apply to, but also the grounds on which, and how, the Home Secretary would make that judgment.

That is a very important point; there is a lack of clarity as the Bill stands. At the time, the Minister said that the numbers would be very small, but if the Government bring forward a clause such as this, they must have a reason for doing so. I should expect them to have some idea of the kind of number—I would not for a moment expect an exact number—of cases they expect the provision to apply to. I would like to know the reasons why this was brought forward in the first place and why the change was made from criminals to those who would not be conducive to the public good.

Another issue that has been raised is about the family members of those who have not been convicted of a crime but who have been deported under the clause. The Minister in the Commons said that he would write on that issue. He may have written to colleagues in the other place, but I have not seen his response. On removals, I would like to know the position of family members. The point has already been made about children, but there will be other vulnerable family members. What will be the position of family members, including vulnerable ones? What information will they be given? What happens if the person has been deported and then returns to the UK when they win their appeal? Indeed, will they be allowed to return to the UK if they win their appeal, or will they have to make a separate visa application to return?

I find a fair bit of uncertainty in the clause, and we lack information as to exactly how it will work. I should be grateful for further clarification from the Minister.

Scotland: Independence Referendum

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Thursday 30th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Nickson, speaking with great authority on Scottish currency, and with perhaps unique impartiality, as his ancestors plundered on both sides of the border. It is a great pleasure to congratulate my noble friend Lord Lang on the securing of this debate. He showed quiet passion and devastating analytical skill in examining the question of Scottish independence. I will also look at the question of currency, but before doing so, I will say how good it was to hear from my noble friend Lady Goldie, who is not here at present, on the occasion of her maiden speech. I have known her for many years. She, of course, led the Scottish Conservatives in the Scottish Parliament while I led the Welsh Conservatives in the National Assembly for Wales. We often had the opportunity to compare notes, policies, horror stories and war wounds—metaphorically, of course. We often joined forces on devolution issues. I know, as she has demonstrated, that she will be a massive asset to your Lordships’ House. I can well understand why Holyrood is trying to hang on to her.

I want to focus on two quite separate issues. The first relates to the desire of the Scottish National Party, in the event of a yes vote for separation, to keep the pound sterling. The proposals of that cheeky chappy Alex Salmond are, of course, incredibly dangerous. It would be open to Scotland, on a strictly legal basis, to use the pound sterling as its currency without any negotiations with the rest of the United Kingdom, in much the same way as Panama uses the United States dollar or Montenegro uses the euro. This would not be a currency union but a decision to have no independent Scottish monetary policy. That would be a disaster for Scotland and it would not be good news for the rest of the United Kingdom either.

Therein, of course, lies the problem for a single currency, because it clearly needs a single monetary policy with a single banking regulation and an integrated fiscal policy. These issues are very much central to what the Governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, was setting out in his warning yesterday. It is inconceivable that the remaining United Kingdom—England, Wales and Northern Ireland—would not seek to exercise considerable influence over Scottish fiscal policy, to say the very least, before agreeing to a currency union. Indeed, in all honesty, what we have seen of currency unions in recent years should lead us not to want to touch such a project with a disinfected bargepole.

At the same time, the Scottish nationalists tell us that they want to be members of the European Union. It is very clear that they will have to formally apply to join and to satisfy the other 28 members of their credentials, which is unlikely. They will also have to negotiate an opt-out from an obligation to join the euro, which is virtually impossible. It can only be imagined what all this uncertainty will do to business and jobs north of the border: two sets of negotiations—one to join a currency and one not to join a currency—would be destined to fail. It is the Alex Salmond constitutional hokey-cokey, which would be funny if it were not so serious.

The second issue that I want to touch on has been mentioned by many noble Lords: the constitutional settlement in the light of a no vote, or even in the event of a yes vote. I passionately hope and trust that there is a vote for continuing a union which I fervently believe benefits us all in every part of the United Kingdom in every sense. If, God forbid, there were to be a yes vote, that would still apply. Many speakers, including my noble friend Lord Lang in his excellent introduction, spoke of the need for a new settlement—unionism that recognises the importance of the devolved arrangements in the United Kingdom. In the wake of the vote there will need to be a constitutional convention to look at the powers, not least the fiscal powers, of the constituent powers of the United Kingdom, and at the English dimension which, so far, is the dog that has barely barked on devolution issues. In the case of Wales, a draft Wales Bill is already being looked at, following the response of the Government to part 1 of the Silk report on fiscal powers. I declare an interest as a member of the Silk commission. Part 2 of the Silk report is due to be presented to Westminster in March and will deal with the appropriate place for decisions on other policy issues. That, too, will be relevant in any constitutional settlement. In short, the vote in Scotland is a watershed. I hope that following the vote—and a decisive no vote—there will be such a convention to work out a lasting constitutional settlement for all parts of our kingdom, not least for England.

Magna Carta in 1215 had Welsh and Scottish chapters. The Act of Union, some 500 years later, provided a lasting settlement. Now, some 300 years after, there has been a new settlement. I think that noble Lords will be able to see a clear trend of constitutional settlements. Such a lasting settlement can only be in the interests of all the nations of the United Kingdom.