Armed Forces Bill

Lord Bishop of St Edmundsbury and Ipswich Excerpts

Tuesday 4th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Taylor of Bolton]

My Lords, I, too, would like to say a few words in support of Amendment 6, which I spoke to in Committee, as did many other noble Lords. Indeed, some of the arguments put forward were echoed in the debate on the first grouping of amendments. I think that this does go very wide, and a lot of people are concerned to make sure that we do not lose an opportunity to maximise the impact that we can have in showing our commitment to the military covenant and ensuring that the provisions—that I think we all agree should be there—materialise in reality.

Rather than repeat the arguments that were used before, I want to reinforce certain points. I also acknowledge the work that the Minister has done in trying to reassure us that he understands the concerns that are there and why there is pressure to move in the direction in which we are pushing. I said in Committee that this amendment is designed genuinely to be helpful. I think that it will be helpful to any Minister in the Ministry of Defence to have other Ministers underwrite the statements that have specific responsibility from their departments, so that when the Secretary of State for Defence or whichever Minister signs off that document, they will be dealing with things that are the direct responsibility of the MoD. Other people will be taking responsibility where they should in the other areas mentioned, such as education and health. We also have to think of the devolved Assemblies. So I think that it is helpful to Ministers in the home department.

There is another very important reason for writing into the Bill the responsibilities of Ministers in other departments. Unless their names are on the face of the Bill, we will not get the maximum buy-in, commitment and drive from those departments to meet the obligations that we know Ministers in the MoD want to see and, I think, the rest of us want to see as well.

We have heard on other occasions that other Ministers are very happy to co-operate—as we found when we were considering the armed services White Paper a couple of years ago—but we have to make sure that the momentum does not diminish and that everybody maximises their level of commitment. It is important that we do not lose this opportunity to drive home that very necessary message.

The amendment serves a further useful purpose by making it clear that the covenant applies not only to military personnel but also to their families and to veterans. In our earlier discussions, it was felt that it would be helpful to specify very clearly that that was the case, not because the Ministry of Defence or other departments did not feel that it was but to show that those people could have the expectation that they would be cared for in a way that was appropriate.

I hope that the Minister will look favourably on Amendment 6; I think that it is technically in order. As was said earlier, Ministers are always under pressure not to accept amendments in legislation, but I think that there would be considerable support in both Houses for action along the lines that we have discussed.

[The Lord Bishop of St Edmundsbury and Ipswich]

My Lords, my colleague the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Wakefield has been involved in the efforts to add strength to this part of the Bill, and his name appears on the amendment paper as supporting this amendment. Unfortunately, he is unable to be present today because of duties within his diocese. I am here to speak on his behalf from these Benches.

Having heard what other noble Lords have said, I think that there is little that I can add, so I shall restrict myself to saying that the amendment will help to ensure that any report to Parliament is authoritative and extends both across all government departments as well as across the whole United Kingdom, including the devolved Assemblies.

While I warmly welcome the undertaking given earlier by the Minister about other ministries being consulted, naming them in this way gives a degree of future-proofing to make sure that it happens. The amendment would enhance transparency by ensuring that all the relevant bodies and departments other than the Ministry of Defence really were part of any report laid before Parliament.

There appears to be considerable consensus as to the objective that the amendment seeks to achieve; the division comes over the appropriate means and whether achieving those means is possible within a tight timeframe. I do not think that the amendment is overly prescriptive, and I hope that it is not so complicated or contentious a proposal as to cause undue delay to Parliament's handling of the Bill.

If it is possible to be assured that the objectives of the amendment could be achieved by other means, I, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Wakefield and others would of course be very prepared to listen to what those means might be. However they are achieved, the ultimate test will be the quality of the first report on the covenant that is made by the Secretary of State. The aim of this amendment is to help ensure that the report is both of a high standard and effective.

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

My Lords, I rise in this case not to seek solidarity with the episcopate, though I would be very happy to have that, but in a spirit of camaraderie with my noble friend—as I think I shall call her on this occasion—another former Leader of another place. She made some very important points, building on what the noble and gallant Lord had said, about the effect of the amendment, or something like it, on the activities of government, and in particular the desirable aim of promoting joined-up government. The amendment would make sure that everybody in government departments throughout Whitehall and Westminster paid attention to the covenant, which is between not just the Ministry of Defence and the services, but the Government—and, in a sense, the people—and the armed services. That should be reflected throughout.

I support the general thrust of this. In slightly more tendentious mode, in light of the earlier exchanges about the ombudsman, it might be wise to include the Ministry of Justice, which is responsible for administrative justice policy, and the Cabinet Office, which is responsible for ombudsman policy, because it appears that intelligence has not filtered through from either to the Ministry of Defence, which wrote the Minister’s brief.