NATO

Lord Bishop of Oxford Excerpts

Tuesday 29th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, for the opportunity to debate this rather neglected but extremely important subject. I want to touch briefly on three very different areas.

First, I want to emphasise what lay behind the setting up of the review in the first place, namely the crucial importance of NATO having a clear and consistent understanding of deterrence and defence—one which, granted that there are real differences of emphasis and approach between the nations that make up NATO, is as harmonised as is humanly possible in the cause of collective security.

As I am sure we are all aware, the success of a deterrence policy depends on it being both clear and clearly understood by any potential enemy. Mixed and confused, let alone contradictory, messages tempt potential aggressors to chance their arm. We saw this with the Falklands, and we saw it with the total failure of European nations to agree on how to respond to the break-up of former Yugoslavia. Both the review and the statement from Chicago show that this area still needs a huge amount of work, as the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, emphasised. In particular, more work needs to be done on the relationship between missile defence and deterrence. Does the Minister really think that missile defence will enhance deterrence for the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Addington, emphasised? As for tactical nuclear weapons, is it not high time for these to be withdrawn from European soil, as the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, emphasised?

The only justification for a deterrence posture that relies in part on nuclear weapons is a belief that it will indeed deter and that it will be more successful than any other in averting war. Its success depends in significant measure on potential aggressors perceiving that it is rooted in a clear and unified resolve. Despite what was said in Chicago, this area requires continuing close attention.

Secondly, we should constantly remind ourselves that the possession of nuclear weapons remains morally problematic. During the Cold War, I was, with spiritual fear and moral trembling, a supporter of nuclear deterrence. The reason why we should remain troubled is not the weapons in themselves but the difficulty of seeing how they can be used in a way which is both discriminate and proportionate. For deterrence to work, the threat has to be believed, and that means that there must be possible uses that are not either intrinsically immoral, by directly attacking civilians, or immoral as a consequence of their side-effects being disproportionate. I accept that targeting must be kept secret—I am not a great believer in declaratory policies—but we should not have a debate such as this without reminding those in the Ministry of Defence who are responsible for targeting policy that this is an area of crucial moral concern. This brings to mind once again how much we still miss the late Sir Michael Quinlan, the architect of British nuclear policy both in its strategic and ethical dimension—which he never forgot. Nuclear weapons remain morally problematic and we need to keep the ethical as well as the strategic dimension alive; indeed, they are inseparable.

My third and final point is rather different. As I am going to Georgia tomorrow to take part in its European week, I cannot forget that Russian forces are still on its soil and refusing either to leave or to loosen their grip on Abkhazia and South Ossetia. I agree with the noble Lords, Lord Addington and Lord King, that we want to do all we can to maintain good relationships with Russia, but we cannot rest content with the situation that prevails in Georgia and we need to continue to use every diplomatic means, both ourselves and with our European partners, to recover Georgia’s territorial integrity. Georgia wants to be fully integrated into NATO, a policy which causes Russia to be extremely alarmed and hostile towards it. Perhaps the Minister will feel able to say something about Georgia in relation to NATO policy within our overall attitude towards Russia.

Pakistan

Lord Bishop of Oxford Excerpts

Monday 14th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am aware of the matters that the noble Lord raises, but I must emphasise that they are internal matters for the Government and people of Pakistan and are not matters in which we can be involved. The discussions which we hold are, in general terms, about democracy, the rule of law and the aspirations to see Pakistan develop in a stable, democratic way. Pakistan is a friend and a nation that has faced great difficulties. When friends face difficulties, you help them; you do not just walk away.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

Did the Government raise the place of the blasphemy law in Pakistani life and its use to pursue personal vendettas against Christians?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Yes, we raised the blasphemy legislation, religious intolerance and evidence of it. These subjects were raised not just during these talks. They are raised constantly by our High Commission, by visitors and by Ministers. My noble friend Lady Warsi certainly raised them when she last visited. These are issues that are very much our concern, and we keep raising them.

Indonesia: West Papua

Lord Bishop of Oxford Excerpts

Tuesday 19th July 2011 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to encourage the government of Indonesia to enter into dialogue with representative leaders of the West Papuan opposition.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, the United Kingdom has long encouraged the use of constructive dialogue to resolve differences between the Government of Indonesia and the credible representatives of the Papuan and West Papuan people. We welcome the Papuan peace conference held in Jayapura from 5 to 7 July, which included discussions between Indonesian government Ministers and Papuan community leaders addressing political differences over regional governance and possible avenues for further dialogue.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

I thank the Minister for his reply. I am particularly glad that he has drawn the attention of the House to the recent peace conference, when more than 500 representatives of different aspects of West Papuan society gathered in order to call for serious negotiations with the Indonesian Government and to appoint five people to negotiate on behalf of the West Papuan people. Will the Minister ask the Indonesian Government to respond to this initiative?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am grateful to the noble and right reverend Lord for his question. We are discussing these matters with the Indonesian Government. We know they are committed to trying to carry this process forward. It is a matter of them putting their money where their mouth is because Papua and West Papua receive by far the largest chunk of the regional funds from the central government. They want to carry this forward. I think the message of the noble and right reverend Lord is the correct one and we shall continue to encourage a constructive dialogue, as I have described.

Arms Trade

Lord Bishop of Oxford Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I appreciate the right reverend Prelate’s concern, but we do not see these matters as influencing each other in any undesirable way at all. On the contrary, we see as one task the application of our very strict controls for exports of armaments and the need for friendly and responsible countries to equip themselves in a responsible way rather than resorting to the much lower standards and greater dangers in participating in many of the other arms trades going on around the world, and we see promoting the commercial interests of this country in all responsible areas and ways as quite a separate issue. We do not really elide the two concepts as some people in the media and commentators have done.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

The Minister mentions that we have one of the most rigorous control systems in the world for arms exports. Nevertheless, between 2008 and 2010, 198 export licences for arms were given to Indonesia, where there is a low-scale civil war in West Papua and the basic human rights of the indigenous people are being denied. Is he happy about those arms export licences?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

One can never say, speaking in general terms, that one is happy. Perhaps a year or two ago, many people in this House would have been happy with the number of licences going to Libya, but it turns out that a great many of these—I think 118 of them—have been revoked, and rightly so. All licences for weapons of any kind of concern for Libya have been revoked. In the case of Indonesia, the process of rigorous control is there. We watch it all the time, and we will monitor it. These things are regularly revisited, and one hopes that any doubts about any weakness in the application of criteria will be strengthened. So I cannot say that one is happy or unhappy, but we are applying the best possible filter and controls, possibly by world standards, that are available to ensure that weapons are not misused, or used for repression in horrible ways.

Indonesia

Lord Bishop of Oxford Excerpts

Thursday 16th December 2010 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will make representations to the Government of Indonesia regarding the initiation of a dialogue with the indigenous West Papuan opposition.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, the UK remains committed to the territorial integrity of Indonesia. We will do all we can in support of measures to address the widespread poverty in the area in question, and to raise our concerns about human rights abuses wherever they occur. We encourage, along with other international partners, a meaningful dialogue which would be of assistance in finding an acceptable solution.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

I thank the Minister for his reply, but would he urge on the Indonesian Government the sheer seriousness of the present situation? He will not need to be reminded of the statement of the Foreign Secretary in the other place that friendly relationships with states should in no way preclude our raising human rights abuses in the strongest terms. Would he draw the attention of the Indonesian Government to the fact that 10,000 people are assembled in June to reject the so-called special autonomy measures? The West Papuan people do not believe that these are helping them, and a dialogue is needed with their leaders.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I appreciate the very strong feelings on this subject, not only of the noble and right reverend Lord but of many people about some of the reports from that area. I fully endorse what my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary said in another place. Our ambassador raised with the governor authorities only a couple of weeks ago some aspects concerning human rights that clearly concern us greatly. The Deputy Prime Minister raised questions of human rights in the area and of access of journalists, to see just what is going on, when he met senior Indonesian Ministers at the Asia-Europe summit in October. So we certainly have not been silent on this matter, but we do believe that it really is the responsibility of the central, district and provincial Governments and all the parties concerned to work out exactly how a dialogue is going to go forward. There are real restraints on how much we can do from outside, except to keep raising our voice about the clear abuses of human rights that have, sadly, occurred.

Human Rights

Lord Bishop of Oxford Excerpts

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

My Lords, I, too, am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for initiating this debate, and it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins. As we have heard, she is a former president of the Royal College of Psychiatrists, and I know that the House will be greatly helped by her long and very distinguished career in the field of learning disabilities and mental health.

I am also very pleased to note the report of the Conservative Party Human Rights Commission and I very strongly support what the noble Lord, Lord Alton, has said about its recommendations.

I am of course aware that this debate has already covered a wide range of human rights issues, in all of which your Lordships will have a proper concern because human rights are indivisible. If I had time, I would certainly mention a good number, not least the increasingly tense situation in West Papua, where human rights are being ever more violated. Just recently there was a film on television of an indigenous West Papuan being brutally tortured. However, because of time, I am going to focus on only one concern—the situation of the Dalits in the world, and I declare an interest as chair of the all-party parliamentary group.

Recently I claimed that the struggle to support the rights of Dalits was comparable with the struggle to end apartheid in a previous generation, and I was publicly challenged over that comparison. I am glad to be challenged because it enables us to think more clearly about the exact nature of this issue, and of course it is a great help to be forced to think more clearly.

The struggle to support the rights of Dalits is not like apartheid in one respect, in the sense that the Indian constitution, to take one example, is in principle admirable, respecting the rights of all peoples, whereas apartheid was of course a state system. However, I suggest that the oppression of the Dalits is worse than apartheid in a number of respects. The first is the sheer scale of the problem. It has been reckoned that there are 250 million Dalits in the world—one in 40 of the world’s population—and their oppression is a blight that affects not just India but surrounding countries such as Pakistan, Bangladesh and Nepal, and sadly even the Asian diaspora in this country. Secondly, it is difficult to imagine any form of social rejection more degrading or humiliating than that experienced by the Dalits. The caste system is complex but the point about the Dalits—the former untouchables—is that they are outside it altogether. They have no assured place and are regarded as less than human, so that those of so-called higher castes are unwilling to be touched by them, to have any social intercourse with them or even, for example, to touch a dog that has been touched by a Dalit. They are relegated to jobs such as manual scavenging—that is, clearing out human excreta by hand from dry latrines.

The psychological effects of that, together with the economic and political implications, are not difficult to imagine. As Christian Solidarity Worldwide has put it, the impact of the caste system on the Dalits is,

“connected with almost all human rights concerns in India”.

One issue with which another organisation, the Dalit Freedom Network, is particularly concerned is the trafficking of Dalits, whose marginal and vulnerable position in society makes them the main victims of all forms of trafficking, leading to bonded labour, sex trafficking and ritualised prostitution. As we know, women and, in particular, children are especially at risk in these areas.

The Dalit issue raises one very fundamental aspect of human rights—the role of the wider society in economic, civic and social aspects. Human rights, when first formulated after World War II, were primarily concerned to protect the rights of the individual against the state, and that remains fundamental, as we have heard on many occasions this morning. However, the position of the Dalits highlights that society as a whole has a role and a responsibility in ensuring that basic human rights are recognised. For example, British foreign aid to India does, I understand, recognise the oppressed position of the Dalits and ensures that aid is significantly directed towards bettering their position, but what about the employment practices of DfID offices, embassies and other government agencies working in India and other parts of the world? Do they make provision for the employment of a fair percentage of Dalit personnel? Do they monitor their employment practices with a view to that end? I should particularly like to pose that question to the Minister. Then there are the employment practices of British companies working in that part of the world.

Finally, when it comes to this country, some of us were greatly surprised and shocked to learn that discrimination against Dalits had travelled here with the Asian diaspora. That is why we sought to put a clause in the Equality Bill which outlawed discrimination on the grounds of caste. In the event, the Government decided to introduce an order-making power, pending evidence of discrimination in the areas of employment, education and the provision of goods and services. I know for a fact that there is such discrimination, but we are still awaiting a report commissioned by the Government on this issue. Again, I look to the Minister to see when that report is going to be produced.

The position of the Dalits is a scandal in the modern world. It is one that needs to be addressed in different ways by all elements in society—by the Government, of course, but also by companies, civic leaders and religious leaders.

India: Commonwealth Games

Lord Bishop of Oxford Excerpts

Tuesday 9th November 2010 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the assurance given by the Government of India that special funds for the support of Dalits and other scheduled castes were not used to finance the Commonwealth Games.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, I can assure the noble and right reverend Lord that we have been monitoring this situation carefully. Following earlier reassurances from Delhi that the Commonwealth Games were self-funding, the Indian Home Minister has subsequently acknowledged that some moneys earmarked for Dalits and scheduled castes were in fact used to contribute to Commonwealth Games infrastructure projects and that, in his view, this was both wrong and inconsistent with Indian Planning Commission guidelines. I understand that the Indian Government are now seeking to find ways of returning the sums involved to the scheduled castes plan and have appointed a task force to revise guidelines and their application.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

I thank the Minister for his reply, and I am particularly grateful that he has made the House aware that the assurance previously given by the Indian Government was in fact unfounded. In the light of that recognition, will Her Majesty’s Government monitor the situation and perhaps also raise the question that, as has been widely reported, a similar diversion of funds has taken place in a range of states?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I will certainly follow the advice of the noble and right reverend Lord. I do not have any details on the other allegations but I will look into them. He might be interested to know that the sum diverted was £94 million. We are monitoring the situation very closely, and the British high commissioner is in discussion with the Indian National Commission for Minorities about these and other issues.

Commonwealth Games: Delhi

Lord Bishop of Oxford Excerpts

Monday 28th June 2010 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have made to the Government of India regarding the funding arrangements of the Delhi Commonwealth Games.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, we have maintained close dialogue with Indian officials responsible for all aspects of the Commonwealth Games. According to the chairman of the organising committee, Mr Kalmadi, the costs of the Delhi Commonwealth Games will be met by the revenues generated through the sale of broadcasting rights, sponsorship, and ticket and merchandise sales.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

I thank the Minister for his reply. However, is he not very disturbed by the report of the Housing and Land Rights Network, released by a former chief justice of the Delhi High Court, showing that money which had previously been earmarked for the uplift of the poor—particularly the poorer castes—had been used to finance these Games, which have run hugely over budget? Will he, with other Commonwealth countries, raise this with the Indian Government?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Yes, my Lords, we were disturbed, and indeed the Secretary of State launched an immediate inquiry when some of these statements and allegations appeared in the media. However, although the noble and right reverend Lord is correct about the likely overrun of costs—which were estimated to be £250 million but are probably going to be considerably more than that—from our examination we are satisfied and have full confidence that the Games will be properly financed and that there will be no diversion from the very important funds that go via the Indian Government and DfID to the scheduled castes, slum clearance and other crucial issues. Therefore, we have full confidence in India’s commitment to deliver a secure and successful Commonwealth Games and to avoid the very problems that have been raised.

Queen's Speech

Lord Bishop of Oxford Excerpts

Wednesday 26th May 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

My Lords, several thousands of miles away, in a country most people have never heard of, in the remote highlands of that country, people have been celebrating. Dressed in the local costume, they were filmed holding up a large poster of David Cameron. The reason is that the new Prime Minister has met Benny Wanda, a West Papuan leader who was granted political asylum in this country, and because of this meeting these desperate people have raised their hopes.

We know from this debate that the new Government have many very serious issues facing them on their foreign policy agenda, but I hope that they will not forget minority groups and indigenous peoples, including the people of West Papua, whose hopes have been so raised by the election of David Cameron.

I remind noble Lords, if I may, of the situation of these people. West Papua, which is the western half of the island whose other half is Papua New Guinea, was once under Dutch control. At the end of 1961, West Papua held a congress at which its people declared independence, and raised their new flag, the Morning Star. Indonesia then invaded and, to cut the story short, held a forced vote. This so-called act of free choice consisted of 1,026 people being forced at gunpoint to vote for integration with Suharto’s Indonesia, and that being taken as the voice of the people. In a historic statement in this House, the then Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, acknowledged that,

“there were 1,000 handpicked representatives and that they were largely coerced into declaring for inclusion in Indonesia”.—[Official Report, 13/12/04; col. 1084.]

That crime has not been forgotten, even though many would like to forget it, because Indonesia is rightly seen as a relatively stable and vital partner in the struggle against terrorism. Furthermore, West Papua is rich in natural resources, which are being exploited to the benefit of Indonesia and the large international companies that are operating there, although not to the benefit of the West Papuan people themselves.

A brief word is necessary about the name. The Indonesian Government, on the old principle of divide and rule, have divided the country into three provinces, one of which they have called West Papua. But for the indigenous people, West Papua is what they call the country as a whole.

There are other reasons why so little is heard of West Papua in the rest of the world. One is that journalists and human rights observers are not allowed into the country, so little of the abuse gets reported. But it has been estimated that since 1969 more than 100,000 West Papuans have been killed and there are now some 9,000 refugees in Papua New Guinea. The Catholic Church’s Papuan Peace and Justice Secretariat reported that students who had been arrested after a peaceful demonstration had been interviewed without access to legal representation and had suffered physical and mental torture.

There are more than 100 political prisoners there, including Filep Karma and Yusak Pakage, who were jailed for 15 and 10 years respectively for raising the West Papua national flag, the Morning Star, on 1 December 2004. They have been recognised by Amnesty International as international prisoners of conscience. More recently, Buchtar Tabuni and Victor Yeimo have been imprisoned for exactly the same offence. Expressing their desire in an entirely peaceful manner means that they are liable to 10, 15 or 20 years imprisonment. In the highlands at this very moment, there are sweeping military operations in which villages are burnt, people killed and livestock destroyed.

Another feature of the situation that is very distressing to the indigenous population is the way that the island is being repopulated. Apparently, the city’s hotels and shops are now being dominated by people who have been brought in from outside.

Despite the clampdown on news, the world is gradually becoming aware of what is happening. Amnesty International is campaigning. This very afternoon, I handed in a petition on its behalf at the Indonesian embassy in Grosvenor Square with more than 3,000 signatures. The embassy received us very graciously. There are now two significant bodies in existence, the International Lawyers for West Papua and the International Parliamentarians for West Papua.

The new Government believe in freedom. I very much hope that they will carry that conviction with them into the international sphere and in their dealings with minority groups and indigenous peoples, particularly the people of West Papua. A significant step would be to press for proper access to West Papua and elsewhere for journalists and human rights workers so that the world can become fully aware of what is happening. I am well aware of the necessity of realpolitik when there is a significant moral dimension. But there is a historic wrong. A people who made it clear that they wanted self-determination were denied it in 1969 and are still being denied it today. As a result, they are still trying to make their voices heard and are being suppressed. A large poster of David Cameron, our new Prime Minister, has been raised in the remote highlands of West Papua. I hope that the voices raised there will be heard in Downing Street and the Foreign Office.