Lords Spiritual (Women) Bill

Lord Bishop of Leicester Excerpts

Thursday 12th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Leicester]

My Lords, I know I speak for all of us on this Bench in wanting to express our appreciation to your Lordships’ House for the serious, thoughtful and supportive way that your Lordships have considered this legislation, and to rehearse the most reverend Primate’s appreciation to the Government and Opposition Benches, and to the usual channels, for making it possible for the Bill to reach this stage so quickly.

It is a great privilege to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, and to have the opportunity to address briefly the important issues she raised, although they do not bear, either directly or indirectly, on the substance of the legislation before us. The main point that it might be helpful to make is that the archbishops are guided by five fundamental principles that have been set before the House of Bishops and the General Synod, which are designed to ensure that the church can be what it is intended to be: a movement of people with different views who are united in following the same Lord. A church cannot behave like a political party or a tribe; it is an association of people whose differences are respected and among whom room is made for difference.

The particular guiding principles that relate to this, if I can ask your Lordships’ forbearance, are these. Since the Church of England will continue to share the historical episcopate with other churches—including the Roman Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church and those provinces of the Anglican communion that continue to ordain only men as priests or bishops—it will acknowledge that its own clear decision on ministry and gender is set within a broader process of discernment within the Anglican communion and the whole church of God. Secondly, since those within the Church of England who, on grounds of theological conviction, are unable to receive the ministry of women bishops or priests will continue to be within the spectrum of teaching and tradition of the Anglican communion, the Church of England will remain committed to enabling them to flourish within its life and structures. I am sure that the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York was bearing those principles in mind when he came to his conclusions about the ordination of the Bishop of Burnley.

The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, asked me to speculate whether a future woman Archbishop of Canterbury might take the same view. That is asking a lot. What we can notice is that in recent years opinion has been moving quite quickly in the church, as some of your Lordships have noted, and I have no doubt it will continue to do so. It is impossible to be certain about what the position may be in five or 10 years—to my most reverend friend I say, “It’s all right brother”—but it is quite possible that no such provision will be needed at that time. The most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York has made it clear that the decision he made in this particular case should not be regarded as setting any precedent for future action.

I wonder if I could briefly pick up one or two other points raised in the debate. The noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, asked whether the major regional dioceses—she mentioned Birmingham and Manchester—should not automatically be sees attached to the Lords spiritual Bench, as London, Durham and so on all are. That point was raised in the discussion on the last round of Lords reform consideration and in the Select Committee on which I served. I have no doubt that that question will come before us again in the event of future reform of this House leading to a reduction in the number of Lords spiritual proportionate to a reduction in the size of the House.

As to the noble Baroness’s point about diversity of appointments, she will know that that is a matter receiving immediate consideration in the Church of England at the moment. The House of Bishops and the Archbishops’ Council are progressing a major report on the development of clergy towards senior leadership to ensure that it is more representative of the population as a whole and more diverse.

The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, raised a concern about positive discrimination. We have tended to think in terms of “corrective action”. What is happening here is intended to correct positive discrimination against women—a situation that has gone on for too long—and a fixed period during which corrective action puts the compass needle back to where it should be clearly commands overwhelming support.

A number of other speakers have referred to the capacity of women to rise to the challenge of serving effectively in your Lordships’ House and becoming diocesan bishops. I assure your Lordships that our parliamentary unit has already started to put in place high-quality induction programmes and procedures that will offer the best possible support to any women diocesan bishop who is appointed in the near future.

I think that I have dealt with most of the significant points that may require some response. The purpose of bringing forward this Bill is not to serve the interests of the Church of England but to serve the interests of the nation and its good governance so that, as others have said, the voice of women bishops can properly be heard here. We are absolutely confident that they will make a major contribution.

I joined the Movement for the Ordination of Women in 1974. It took a further two decades before the first women were ordained priests—as it happens, at almost exactly the point at which I was ordained a bishop, so I then spent the next two decades longing for the moment when the women would join me in that gathering.

I shall be retiring in July this year. It is unlikely that the diocesan Bishops’ Benches will have a woman joining us then but it is very likely that a woman diocesan bishop will be appointed in the near future. I would be very touched and moved if she were able to occupy the seat that I shall be vacating later this year, and I am confident that today the House will come to the same conclusion.

Probation Service: Community-sentenced Offenders

Lord Bishop of Leicester Excerpts

Tuesday 5th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, part of the exercise is what is roughly called “payment by results” for those that take on these undertakings if they manage to achieve a rehabilitation, which means people not reoffending within a specific time. Part of the problem we face is that nearly half of offenders leaving prison reoffend within one year. We hope that the system will incentivise those providing services to think creatively about rehabilitation. The worst thing for victims and the taxpayer is this revolving door, which successive Administrations are faced with and which, I believe, the rehabilitation proposals we are bringing in give us a real chance of breaking into.

[The Lord Bishop of Leicester]

My Lords, given the proposals—

[Noble Lords]

Next Question!

Queen's Speech

Lord Bishop of Leicester Excerpts

Thursday 27th May 2010 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Leicester]

My Lords, as has already been observed, much has changed since we last debated the gracious Speech in this House, and not least the elbow room on these Benches from time to time.

In the midst of the economic, security and social challenges, which properly frame all that is in the gracious Speech, the Government have emphasised reform of our constitution and particularly of the functioning of our Parliament and democracy. On these Benches, we have good reason to believe that we are in touch with significant public opinion in relation to these proposals. In my diocese during the election, more than 20 public hustings were held in churches in Leicester and Leicestershire, and the pattern was repeated across the country. Parliamentary candidates commented that their primary engagement with significant live audiences of non-aligned citizens took place in the churches of England.

The evidence is that the public want a measure of parliamentary reform. This may include support for the provision of a referendum on the electoral system, reform of the number and size of constituencies, and power of recall for any Member engaged in serious wrongdoing. A strong, elected lower House, accountable to the public and transparent in its operation, is welcomed and supported on these Benches. However, as has already been mentioned, the proposal to increase the numbers in this House to reflect the proportion of the vote gained on 6 May is surely profoundly questionable. Does this not seem like creating a large number of new Peers with the sole object of voting themselves out of existence? That is surely strange for a coalition Government who are determined to reduce the scale and cost of government in general.

However, the Deputy Prime Minister has spoken of a “wholesale, big-bang approach” to political reform. That suggests something with destructive, sudden and irreversible consequences, having little regard to what has gone before and taking less account of unintended consequences for the future. This surely raises serious questions about how our constitution is to be changed and about whether it is the property of the Government of the day or of the nation as a whole.

Further, the Deputy Prime Minister referred to a committee—mentioned earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt—which he described as not yet another government talking shop but,

“a dedicated group devoted to kick-starting real reform”.

Can the Minister tell us how such a committee will be composed, whether it will have any commitment to achieving consensus, and whether the Government would welcome the contribution of these Benches in formulating their proposals for change?

The former Bishop of Chelmsford gave much of his time with others to conversations leading to the 2008 White Paper—conversations certainly not regarded at the time as simply a talking shop. In his response to the White Paper, he set out the Church of England’s position, which remains broadly the same today:

“The Church of England does not find the argument for a wholly elected 2nd Chamber convincing and supports the proposal for a fixed appointed element. This would help ensure the continuation of a breadth and diversity of talent amongst the membership, more often than not, currently evidenced within the members of the Cross Bench peers. It would ensure that all those with undoubted expertise, but who would not naturally submit themselves for election, would continue to have a role in parliamentary scrutiny and debate: a quality of the current House of Lords that has been invaluable, particularly when matters of great ethical importance are before it”.

A similar point was made in a recent address by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham when he said:

“We have some excellent Members of Parliament but many observers think that to fill another Chamber with more of the same, whipped to the will of government, would be worse than pointless. I am, in other words, much more concerned with the ability of the Lords to scrutinise legislation than I am with the official place of Bishops in that House. But that is not the point. The point is that our fine-tuned constitution, like a complex ecosystem, cannot simply be tampered with and played about with without considerable risk”.

That broadly represents our position, and especially now when two further considerations come to the forefront of the nation’s concerns. First, there is now a major priority facing Parliament and the country, as the gracious Speech and the coalition agreement make absolutely clear. The people will not forgive Parliament if it gets caught up in self-regarding questions of its own organisation, at the expense of giving clear and focused attention to the consequences of dramatic fiscal cuts on the wider population. Secondly, the people clearly do not want the public discourse about reform to be conducted in polarising and unproductive language about privilege and entitlement. I am sure that most if not all Members of this House would hold the ideal of service above privilege, and that is certainly what will animate the contribution of these Benches to the debate, since we see our service to this House as an intrinsic element of the Church of England’s broader service to the nation. It is on the basis of service and not privilege, and on that basis above all, that we shall judge the merits of the reform proposals that are brought before your Lordships’ House in due course.