Sentencing Guidelines (Pre-sentence Reports) Bill

Debate between Lord Bishop of Gloucester and Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd

Report stage
Wednesday 4th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Gloucester]

My Lords, like other noble Lords, I have already registered my feelings about the Bill at Second Reading and in Committee. Now that we have had the publication of the Independent Sentencing Review and the Government’s response, I reiterate the point that, like others, I simply do not believe that we need this legislation. It seems that the left hand is not aware of the right hand on the evidence around sentencing.

I agree with what has been said already. Amendment 8, in my name, seeks something very specific: to ensure that existing sentencing guidelines relating to the mitigating factor of pregnancy, childbirth and postnatal care can continue to provide directions for courts to obtain pre-sentence reports for offenders who are pregnant or primary carers of young children. Without this amendment, the Sentencing Guidelines (Pre-sentence Reports) Bill directly contradicts the Government’s stated policy intent to reduce the imprisonment of pregnant women and mothers of young children.

On 22 May, in her response to the Independent Sentencing Review, the Lord Chancellor explicitly stated the Government’s intent to reduce the imprisonment of pregnant women and mothers of young children. She said:

“I am particularly keen to ensure that pregnant women and mothers of young children are not anywhere near our female prison estate in future”.—[Official Report, Commons, 22/5/25; col. 1204.]


Indeed, the Independent Sentencing Review

“recognises the harm caused by imprisoning pregnant women and believes pregnant women and new mothers should be diverted and supported in the community, unless in exceptional circumstances. Custody must only be a last resort”.

How, then, are we to achieve this, when the Bill makes unlawful the existing Sentencing Council’s mitigating factor—pregnancy, childbirth and postnatal care—which came into force on 1 April 2024 and directs courts to obtain PSRs for pregnant and postnatal offenders? I am very grateful to the Minister for writing after Committee, but he confirmed—extraordinarily—that the Bill will render such direction about obtaining PSRs across existing sentencing guidelines unlawful. I query his assumption that, without direction, sentencers might request a PSR. This is a backward step. Simply put, without a pre-sentence report, alternatives to custody cannot be considered by a sentencing court. Without a mandatory direction to obtain a PSR, there is no way to ensure that women are diverted from custody. Without this amendment, the Bill directly contradicts the Government’s stated policy intent. I recognise the very difficult position that the Minister has been put in, but I am simply looking for the Government to have the grace to admit this contradiction and to accept this amendment. It does not have to be seen as a humiliating backing-down, but, rather, a humble response to listening.

I will not delay the House further. I will listen to the Minister’s response in due course, but I am minded, at this point, to divide the House. However, I might need some careful direction, should other amendments be passed, as to where that leaves my Amendment 8.

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)]

My Lords, I wish to add a few sentences to what the right reverend Prelate said. I preface that by noting that, when we built the Sentencing Council, the legislation was discussed and agreed. It was clear when this Bill was introduced that discussion and agreement were needed. I find it very disappointing that we have not been able to get together to find a satisfactory way to deal with this legislation other than by dropping it—I regard that now as gone.

I think it important that Ministers appreciate what the right reverend Prelate said. It is plain that pregnancy and maternity are characteristics, and one ought to ensure that all judges receive the same guidance as to obtaining pre-sentence reports. I know that the Minister and the Lord Chancellor are very keen that pregnant women do not go to prison, but they are not the law; the law is laid down by this unfortunate legislation. If there is one thing we can do to ensure that it does not wreak injustice, it is to allow the amendment proposed by the right reverend Prelate. There is a huge amount more that we should do, but, without a consensus and discussion between us, I do not believe that we can make any improvement. That is why I content myself with this very narrow point. We cannot be in a position where we cannot give guidance to courts that they should get a pre-sentence report to avoid sending pregnant women to prison.

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Debate between Lord Bishop of Gloucester and Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Lords Hansard - part one & Report stage
Monday 10th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Gloucester]

My Lords, I add my wholehearted support to this amendment. I am very grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Marks and Lord Ramsbotham, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, for their continued commitment to women in the criminal justice system. As bishop to prisons and president of the Nelson Trust, I am acutely aware, as I have said so often, of the need for a gendered approach to justice. The noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, has just put that very powerfully.

While men and women need to be treated with equal justice, equality is not about sameness. Women are caught up in a criminal justice system that has been designed around men, and there needs to be a gendered lens. As we have heard already, many, many women are more likely than men to be primary carers or victims of abuse or exploitation. When they are given a prison sentence, they are more likely to be given a very short one, often far from home. I do not want to repeat things that have been said so many times in Committee and on Report but, having lost the amendment on primary carers earlier on during Report, I am very grateful to noble Lords for bringing forward these amendments, which will go a long way towards ensuring that we get the same outcomes. I am therefore wholeheartedly glad to support these amendments.

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)]

I rise briefly to add my voice in support of the amendments. I accept that the Youth Justice Board has been an enormous success, and that is primarily because it addresses two separate problems to deal with youths. One is the causes and reasons why they offend and the other is the need for their rehabilitation into society. Although, for reasons that are necessary for the trial of youths, they need a separate system, the underlying reason for the Youth Justice Board applies equally to women, in that there are specific causes of offending, the particular vulnerability, the particular issues they have with mental capacity in certain areas, the specific crimes to which they have been subjected and, above all, domestic abuse.

Moreover, it is plain that the kind of rehabilitation that women need is different. They need much more support in integrating them into the community, but they also need not to be treated or dealt with at centres. I warmly welcome what the Ministry of Justice has done and set forth in its strategy. The difficulty is that although there have been numerous reports about what is required—the report of the noble Lord, Lord Farmer, for example, and the many reports of the Prison Reform Trust—what is needed is delivery. Delivery is key to this, and that is why I warmly support this amendment.