Child Poverty

Debate between Lord Bird and Lord Shipley

Monday 29th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bird (CB)]

I agree with the noble Lord. Children do need a secure home, but the real problem is that all the conditions that lead you to need social housing mean that you never have a full life. I say to anybody in this House: try living in social housing, and then try to get to university or into a skilled job. That very rarely happens; that is the only problem. For me, the problem is not that social housing is not one of the most beautiful things in creation. The question is: what are we going to do to make social housing the foundation for a growth away from poverty and need?

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

I take the noble Lord’s point, and I understand. Perhaps that is why we need a broader, longer discussion. From my perspective, housing waiting lists are so long, and the quality of so many homes in the private rented sector is so poor, that the need to build decent homes within the sector for social rent seems imperative. Without that we will never solve the housing crisis.

Social housing providers can have a responsibility for providing wider support services, particularly for getting people into work and for giving help and advice to those who suffer from ill health. Estate officers can often do things to assist families or individuals that they would not be able to do if it were not for social housing. Maybe we need to have that longer debate.

I understand totally what the noble Lord was saying about a ministry of poverty prevention. Of course, all Whitehall departments are supposed to be doing things to reduce poverty, but the main one is the Treasury. It is about persuading the Treasury to invest more in things such as social housing that might help to reduce poverty.

There is an issue around income disparity. The first thing that has to be done to reduce poverty is reducing income disparity. That is why we have to deal with low pay, and make every effort to increase the minimum wage and the living wage above the rate of inflation so that those in lower pay brackets have more.

Mention has been made of absolute poverty and relative poverty. The truth is that too many children are being brought up in households with very low incomes. That is always poverty, whether it is absolute, relative or deep. We have heard the figures of 4.3 million children living in relatively low-income households and 2.9 million children in deep poverty—a household where income after housing costs is below 50% of median income.

All those tests are based on income, whereas child poverty derives from long-term unemployment, low qualifications, ill health, poverty of aspiration and poverty of opportunity. All those need tackling by the different Whitehall departments that the noble Lord, Lord Bird, talked about.

If levelling up is to be a success for the Government, child poverty needs to be addressed. The point is that levelling up is about people, not places. It is about individual children, and hence the two-child limit seems wrong. It was introduced in 2017, seven years ago. The Resolution Foundation has told us that it increased poverty, particularly for families with three or more children. It should cease, as it is increasing poverty in poor households. All the organisations that one can think of—the National Association of Head Teachers, the Church of England, Save the Children, the Child Poverty Action Group and Barnardo’s—say that it should cease.

As the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Lincoln reminded us, Sure Start was a success. It was introduced in 1999 to improve child development. Some 250 projects were created, concentrated in places where high numbers of children under five were living in poverty. Those centres helped with play, learning, health and childcare. I recall that, when I was leader of Newcastle City Council, we had a major success with our Sure Start centres. It is about aspiration and addressing some of the issues that the noble Earl, Lord Effingham, reminded us of.

The Institute for Fiscal Studies said in a recent report that the programme of Sure Start paid for itself with better GCSE results, improved skills in literacy and numeracy, personal development, and fewer interactions with the police and criminal justice system. It is a means of achieving what the noble Lord, Lord Bird, set out asking us to do, which is to spend more money on prevention rather than on solving the problems that poverty has created. There was too short a judgment in 2010, when there was a change of Government and an end to Sure Start. Too many people thought that it had not proved itself but, if a longer timescale had been taken, they would have known that it had.

Something needs to be created in a new Government. It may be called Sure Start or something else, but we need something like that, which intervenes with those who live in poor households.