Control of Donations and Regulation of Loans etc. (Extension of the Prescribed Period) (Northern Ireland) Order 2011

Debate between Lord Bew and Lord Smith of Clifton

Monday 7th February 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Smith of Clifton]

My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend for introducing this order. Bearing in mind that the Belfast agreement took place in 1998, it is very depressing that here we are and we cannot have normal conditions obtaining in Northern Ireland. I take some heart from the fact that it is only a two-year extension, by which I mean, pace the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, that a signal has been given to the political parties that this is the last time that the order will be continued in its present form. I hope that it will lapse. As the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, has said, there have been great steps forward—after a very irregular start since the Belfast agreement when we had the suspension of Stormont—but we should look forward to normal transparencies obtaining.

To get a sense of the order of magnitude, I should like to ask my noble friend if for the past financial year he can indicate the totals of donations by party. While I appreciate that for the current year we might see an increase in donations because it is an election year, it will be nevertheless very interesting to have it on the public record to see at what sums we are looking—whether they are trivial or of some substance. I should be grateful for that information.

[Lord Bew]

I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, for introducing this order. Like the noble Lord, Lord Smith, I have listened to his words with a degree of disappointment. It is right to say that the limits on the progress that has been made in Northern Ireland—remarkable though that progress has been—are shown in that we are still talking about these exemptions and derogations from broader UK electoral law and the transparency of such law.

I am not surprised by the words of the Minister and the proposal put today because the balance of opinion, to my surprise, in Northern Ireland over the past year has been very cautious about changing existing regulations. It has become clear for some time that the Government, if they were to respond to what they were hearing, would have to be relatively cautious in their response. But, having plagued the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, when he was at the Dispatch Box as long ago as 2007 on this matter and having, I think, plagued the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, on this matter, it would be hypocritical of me not to record a note of disappointment. I know why the Government have reached this conclusion. I know that they may have been slightly surprised by the degree of concern on the part of the political parties. But having received that, any responsible Government have to pay attention to it.

I simply make the point that Northern Ireland last year was convulsed by public scandals. One of the issues that lay in the background was that of the relationship of certain businessmen to certain political parties. In the rest of the United Kingdom, such matters would be easily sorted out and put into the public domain, but in Northern Ireland we do not know where we stand. That is a difficulty and the step that the Minister is taking is regrettable, if understandable.

The noble Lord, Lord Smith, says that he hopes that there is a two-year limit and that the provision might just lapse in two years. However, having been at this now for four years, I am not quite so secure in that assumption. I hope that he is right. Therefore, I would like to be reassured that the Minister is as clear as he appears to be that the department is looking carefully at work to deal with this by secondary legislation and, if it cannot be done by that method, that primary legislation will be introduced that at least loosens some of the provisions and gives greater openness. I have an uneasy feeling that, in the short term, that will be the best that we can do; I very much hope that I am wrong. Therefore, it is important that the Northern Ireland Office looks carefully at what can be done in certain areas, because I have a feeling that—even two years from now—we will not be looking at the simple lapsing of this legislation.

Northern Ireland Assembly (Elections) (Amendment) Order 2010

Debate between Lord Bew and Lord Smith of Clifton

Wednesday 24th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bew]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, for introducing these two draft statutory instruments today and say that I broadly support their thrust—with one caveat, which I shall come to.

It might help the House briefly to explain why the Government are right to go ahead with the local government elections next year, even though there has not been the reform and rationalisation of local government that we were hoping for in Northern Ireland. It is right because we now have a situation, because of the long years since the last local government elections, whereby nominations have become more and more the practice in filling our city councils. I remember saying to the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, about 18 months ago, when she was dealing with this question with her usual skill, that it is a problem, and that if the large political parties believe in direct elections to your Lordships' House it would be a good idea to start with the principle of direct elections to councils in Northern Ireland. At that point, the Dunmurry ward of Lisburn City Council already had a majority of councillors who were not elected but were nominated by the main parties as a result of people retiring from their positions for various reasons—some five out of nine. Just today, the Irish News has published figures for Belfast City Council, the largest council. By January, it is clear that there will be only 32 out of 51 elected members in Belfast City Council, and 40 per cent will be nominated.

We have reached a point whereby it is absolutely essential, despite the difficulties and the fact that it would be much better if we had a reform of local government first, that the Government should say that we will have two elections and possibly a referendum on one day. But that is where my caveat comes in: it will be very hard work indeed to ensure that nothing goes wrong, especially because a number of the polling stations in Northern Ireland are actually rather small places, physically. Will the Minister reassure us that the Government, at least in part, get that point? If you have two elections and one referendum on the same day, in the circumstances that exist, the Government will have to do an awful lot of preparation to ensure that nothing goes wrong and that we have a satisfactory polling day.

[Lord Smith of Clifton]

My Lords, I support these two orders. I think that they are tidying-up orders and are necessary. I support very much what the noble Lords, Lord Kilclooney and Lord Bew, said. However, pace the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, in my experience the most sophisticated electorate on these islands is to be found in Northern Ireland. I do not know this in any pejorative sense, but they actually know how to vote under different systems and have been doing so for a long time—far longer than anywhere else in the devolved regions. I genuinely believe that it would be in the capacity of the electoral authorities and the electors to have two elections and a referendum on the same day.