Trade Bill

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Lord Bates

Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 4th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

I will make some progress, but I will come back to that point—when inspiration arrives.

No UK Government, regardless of their political leanings, could ever accept such a carving up of the United Kingdom—I am referring here of course to the division between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Indeed, on 15 October, in another place, the Prime Minister said:

“We have been clear that we cannot agree to anything that threatens the integrity of our United Kingdom, and I am sure that the whole House shares the Government’s view on this. Indeed, the House of Commons set out its view when agreeing unanimously to section 55 in … the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018 on a single United Kingdom customs territory, which states: ‘It shall be unlawful for Her Majesty’s Government to enter into arrangements under which Northern Ireland forms part of a separate customs territory to Great Britain.’ So the message is clear not just from this Government but from the whole House”.—[Official Report, Commons, 15/10/18; col. 410.]


Turning to Amendment 80—before I come to some of the points raised during the debate—the Government’s position is that they will not seek to be in a customs union with the EU. We have debated this issue in this House and in the other place throughout the passage of this Bill—leaving aside the very clear response that is on its way to the noble Lord; he should be prepared for that. As has already been highlighted to the House, at Report stage in the Commons, MPs rejected an amendment seeking to keep the UK in a customs union with the EU.

On the specific points relating to import VAT, it is clear that the Government are highly cognisant of the concerns raised. I will deal with that point now because the noble Lord asked some very good questions on VAT treatment, and it is good to have an opportunity to put the position on the record. Goods from third countries are treated as imports, with VAT due accounted for on import or by the 15th of the following month as duty of customs. This means that, unlike acquisitions, there is a cash-flow impact because traders have to pay the import VAT and potentially recover it later when they submit their VAT returns. It also means that there needs to be an option to pay import VAT on the border, as not all businesses have the necessary guarantee to defer payment until the following month. Generally, import VAT is paid sooner on goods from non-EU countries than on goods from EU countries. This provides a cash-flow benefit to companies importing goods from the EU compared to businesses that import from non-EU countries. Without an UK-EU agreement to retain this treatment, goods entering the UK from the EU would be treated as imports and would be subject to the same rules as businesses moving goods from non-EU countries. This would mean businesses paying VAT on imports from the EU sooner, affecting their cash flow. The Government published a series of technical notices in August 2018 to help businesses prepare for the unlikely event of a no-deal scenario. The VAT technical notice, “VAT for businesses if there’s no Brexit deal”, announced that the Government will introduce postponed accounting for import VAT on goods brought into the UK.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked why we accepted Section 54—originally New Clause 36—of the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018. The Government did so because it was consistent with our position. It requires the Government to negotiate a reciprocal arrangement for the collection and remittance of VAT, customs and excise duties. The Government have been clear that both the UK and EU should agree a mechanism for the remittance of relevant revenue. The Government set out in their July White Paper that they propose a revenue formula that takes into account goods destined for the UK entering via the EU and goods destined for the EU entering via the UK.

The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, asked whether the customs territory is a customs union under GATT, and he deserves a full answer to his detailed question, so I commit to writing to him. That should be very clear to the noble Lord and all Members of the House—well worth waiting for.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

I ask this question as someone who is not a politician and who therefore sometimes gets quite confused about the repetition of entrenched views, which have led us to the undoubted stalemate that we are in. This really concerns the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Lansley. I heard the Minister’s response, but it seems to me that everything I hear about Brexit suggests that the Northern Ireland backstop is a real sticking point. Is it not conceivable that, to get around that problem, the Government might have to consider some form of customs union?

Health: Tuberculosis

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Lord Bates

Thursday 29th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

We work closely with my noble friend at the Department of Health and Social Care on the specifics of vaccines. DfID has funded some candidates for potential vaccines in the past. It is a very long-term project. There is such demand for scarce resources that we have to allocate them correctly, but if there are promising candidates for a vaccine we would very much want to look at the possibility of funding them.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I was rescued from the clutches of this disease by wonderful NHS treatment. Does the Minister agree that TB can remain dormant in the human body until a time of great stress or malnutrition? Therefore, it is the combination of drug efficacy and, I am afraid, poverty that can exacerbate this problem.

[Lord Bates]

That is very true, and that is why the vast majority of cases of TB around the world—an estimated 10 million new cases in just the past year, leading to the potential deaths of 1.6 million people—are predominantly in low-income countries, which is also where the UK aid budget is focused most.

Asylum Support (Amendment No. 3) Regulations 2015

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Lord Bates

Tuesday 27th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I will just add something very briefly to that. I was extremely disturbed personally by what happened in this House yesterday: my heart was very much with a lot of the opposition amendments but my brain said that I should observe the conventions I signed up to when I joined this House in 2013, although we can all interpret those in different ways. However, in the light of that, I say to the Government that there is a limit to how much one can feel pushed, to a certain extent, in relation to humanitarian concerns. I look to the Minister to show the human face of this Government. We have heard some very disturbing facts, and I want to be reassured that this Government are a humanitarian Government —as they have often boasted they are and as I believe is essentially the case—and do care about these issues and about people who are clearly suffering.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Bates) (Con)]

My Lords, first, I thank the noble Baroness and the noble Lord for their Motions and all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. It has been a very difficult debate to listen to from the Front Bench. There is no mistake about that. I preface my remarks by saying that I am acutely aware that we are talking here about some of the most vulnerable people—not just in the country but on the planet—who have sought refuge in this country. I have no qualms about that at all. Nor do I for one minute suggest that the sums that we are talking about are anything other than the amounts required to meet the essential living needs of individuals. That reflects a level which is barely above the level of destitution as we would define it. I preface my comments with those remarks.

There have been a number of incredibly thoughtful and powerful speeches, and I have here a large number of responses from my officials. Time may not permit me to move all the way through them, but I do want to address some elements. The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, and several other noble Lords including the noble Lord, Lord Alton, talked about the people who come to this country seeking asylum, their background, where they come from—Eritrea and other different places—and the journeys that they have been on to reach here. What greets them on arrival here with their desire to claim asylum?

First, as has been mentioned, they will be given somewhere furnished to live. It will be equipped with bed linen, towels and kitchen utensils. It will be covered for repairs and will have its utility bills—electricity, gas and water—and council tax all paid for. They will get that £36.95 to cover food, clothing and toiletries. They will get additional help, if they are pregnant, of £3 per week. If they have a baby under the age of one, they will get £5 per week; for a child aged one to three, £3 per week. They will get a one-off £300 maternity payment if the baby is due within eight weeks. They will get access to the National Health Service, free prescriptions for medicine, free dental care, free eye tests and help with paying for glasses. They will get access to the education system and free school meals.

I want to put that down because it may all seem obvious, but I want to put it on record that I understand—I totally get it—that this country has a proud record of offering a helping hand to those people who come here seeking asylum, and I want to make it absolutely clear that there is a level of support which is there and is to provide them with safety and a base from which they can begin their appeal. They will also have access to Migrant Help, a fund of about £400 million per year which goes towards providing asylum support in this country. Migrant Help will get alongside people and advise them of their needs. Providing they pass the merits test, they will also have access to legal aid and legal advice to help them to prepare their case and work their way through what must be a daunting process. Also, as the noble Baroness mentioned, they will have access to language training.

This is all seen in the context of what should be a temporary situation. For far too long, it was the case that people were in a sense parked on these benefits and lived in great hardship for a long period of time. One of the things which we want to make absolutely clear is that we want speedy decisions. In fact, we were challenged in court over this very issue of wanting quick decisions, because we think that quick decisions are in the best interest of the individuals concerned, and where they are granted leave to remain in this country and granted asylum, they have access to the full range of benefits and they will be able to work—a point made by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel. The speed of decision-making is absolutely critical.

Then we come to the point about the absolute cash sums. I preface this by stating that I know that these would not be called generous. They were linked to the system of income support that the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, talked about. That situation changed in 2008 and we moved on to the system that we have now. That was the subject of a challenge by Refugee Action referred to by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf. This really went to town in challenging the methodology that we were using. Far from disregarding this and not being mindful of it, we set about undertaking a revision of the methodology. Everything that we have set out here is driven by that new methodology, looking at the things that needed to be taken into account and trying to put a price on them. On the basis of undertaking that revised methodology, not in contravention of but in compliance with that legal judgment, we have arrived at a position, with data from ONS and other sources, that because of economies of scale, the argument for providing an additional premium for children is no longer there. They can meet essential living needs through the economies of scale of a family living together.

I know that we are talking about vulnerable people. I know that we are talking about people who are hovering precariously above the line of destitution, with all sorts of pressures on their mind. However, those of us who have had families would all recognise that, if you are cooking a meal for four, it is less expensive per unit than if you are providing food for one. I do not want to go too far down that road, other than to say that it is on that basis that officials checked the methodology against the court’s basket of measures.

I am aware that there were a number of specific questions. The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, asked two very specific questions in relation to the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, and the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, also mentioned it. I wanted to say this in the presence of the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, who was here a moment ago, but I fully recognise that this was hardly textbook behaviour in terms of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. That is a point which I have made in person, having gone to see the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne. We did not just ignore the committee. I actually provided a response to the judgment. James Brokenshire provided a response to the judgment. That is contained in the report of the Secondary Legislation Committee. Moreover, the additional material that was required, to say how we had arrived at the judgment and what the impact of it would be, was provided in the appendix, along with a copy of the letter to the National Asylum Stakeholder Forum. Those things were provided but I accept that it was not textbook. I really made a thing with officials of wanting to make sure that we improve our game in making sure that Parliament has the right opportunity to scrutinise these very important instruments and pieces of legislation, especially when they involve a significant change.

Of course, one of the difficulties was that we had a general election in the middle of the arrangements. That made it much more difficult and it meant that, for the regulations to come into force on 10 August, they needed to be announced 21 days in advance, which is the requirement. That is why they were laid on 16 July. Then of course they lay before Parliament to be prayed against for a period of 40 days, which is what the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, has taken advantage of.

I have tried to set out that there is a substantial basis of support for asylum seekers. We recognise that they are vulnerable. These cash payments need to be seen in the context of that wider support. When people question whether the cash sums are below the poverty line—we were talking about what poverty was in terms of 60% of median earnings—we need to remember that that is in cash terms. But we are talking here not about that but about all the other things: the homes fully furnished; the repairs already paid for; all the utilities bills paid; all the council tax paid; and all the healthcare paid. All of that is there.

Modern Slavery Act 2015 (Transparency in Supply Chains) Regulations 2015

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Lord Bates

Monday 19th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

In order to save the Minister from popping up and down like a jack-in-the-box, perhaps I may add one point which may help my noble friend Lord Alton. If by civil society one were able to define that by ruling out commercial interests, that would go a long way towards meeting the point being made.

[Lord Bates]

I am grateful for all those points. Let us remember that as this Act went through we debated whether it should be a statutory responsibility to do this or whether it should be something on which the Government should take the lead. The Act has come through in its present form. I hear the voices saying that all these points are needed. If an organisation does not file its statement on its website for the financial year, on or after 31 March, there are remedies set out in the Act as to what can happen as a result of that. Therefore, this is a very serious statement, but it is an added tool for people to use.

For example, many times we have seen stories in the press about practices in the supply chains of organisations. Now, to go along with those investigations in the press, there would be an ability for them to say, “Well, of course, this is what the said company said on its own website about its supply chain”. People can then draw an additional conclusion from that statement.

We are moving further down this route. These are early days and we will need to see how it comes about. Guidance will be published, on which we have consulted extensively. It will provide further information about what should be done and how it should be presented. However, we are where we said we would be when we passed the Act and we should allow these regulations to come into force so that it can be seen to work and can be evaluated after a period of examination. I beg to move.

Serious Crime Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Lord Bates

Monday 2nd March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome the Government’s move in this direction whereby children are regarded as victims. We all know that a 14 year-old can be manipulative, but the important point about these amendments is that they put the onus on the adult not to transgress. In other words, they must make sure that they are not committing a crime and I am sure that this is what the Government wish to see. Putting the onus on to adults who get into correspondence with children is an extremely good move.

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, I am very grateful for the contributions made in this short debate, particularly those made by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. She is right about what is happening here. In some ways, the language needs to catch up with the change in attitudes in society, as was said by the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth. We need to do that catching up, but the law also needs to catch up with the technology, as was pointed out by the noble Baroness. We talk about this applying equally online and offline, because sadly we know that more often than not the engagements of these communications have been in an online community, where the perpetrator is not visible. It is therefore absolutely right, as was said by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, that we should ensure that responsibility rests with the person who is making that initial contact.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, questioned the use of the term,

“offers or provides sexual services”,

in Commons Amendment 4. I have some sympathy with the comments she made, but in amending the Sexual Offences Act we sought to avoid changing the ambit of the relevant offences. The existing wording achieves this objective. I should stress that the wording,

“offers or provides sexual services”,

is used to define the term “sexually exploited” and should be read in that context. With those reassurances, and appreciative of that welcome, I beg to move.