Metropolitan Police Service

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 29th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for the points they have made. I join them in deeply regretting the death of Zara Aleena and all the other people they mentioned—far too many —who have been killed and the examples of poor or bad practice within the Metropolitan Police. This underlines the reason we are here today, which is the “engage” process that has been triggered. I think we probably all agree on that. The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, made the point that we all have our part to play, and I totally agree with that.

Both noble Lords also made the point about the Statement given in the House of Commons being different to the one shared beforehand. I listened to my right honourable friend’s response, and, basically, the points he made reflected his experience while he was deputy mayor for policing in London. That was the reason he gave; I repeat it here. Clearly, what he said was part of the experience he had.

The noble Lords, Lord Coaker and Lord Paddick, made the point that it is depressing to read the report, and both were absolutely right that so many Metropolitan police officers are excellent—they are. They run into danger as opposed to running away from it. I think there will be police officers in the Met who are glad that this has happened, because it gives a fresh opportunity to address some of the very serious issues that I have addressed at this Dispatch Box time and again.

Both noble Lords mentioned Child Q in their questions. That was a particularly shocking episode. As both noble Lords probably know, the use of strip-search is covered by Code C of PACE 1984, which sets out the processes that police must follow when using that power. It can be carried out only by police officers of the same sex as the individual being searched. When searching a child, an appropriate adult must be present, unless the child specifically requests otherwise and the appropriate adult agrees. This is set out in the PACE code and must be followed by the police.

Since the publication of the safeguarding report into Child Q, the Met has ensured that officers and staff have a fully refreshed understanding of the policy for conducting a further search, particularly the requirement for an appropriate adult to be present. It has given officers advice around dealing with schools, ensuring that children are treated as children and considering safeguarding for under-18s. It has delivered training on adultification to all front-line officers in the Central East Command Unit, which covers Hackney and Tower Hamlets. It has reviewed the policy for further searches for those under 18 and made changes to ensure that it recognises that in these circumstances a child may be vulnerable to being a victim of exploitation. It has also introduced new measures so that an inspector must now give authority before the search takes place, to ensure there is appropriate oversight. A Merlin report must also be submitted to ensure that the safeguarding of the child is the priority.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, talked about the answering of 999 calls. I understand that 70% are answered within 10 seconds, but clearly we could do better. That is probably the answer there. The noble Lord talked about the victims Bill. Pre-legislative scrutiny ends at the end of July, and we expect the Bill to be introduced in September or October.

Both noble Lords talked about a combination of abuse of position, which of course the Angiolini inquiry is dealing with, and corruption, which HMICFRS did an inspection on, on the back of the Daniel Morgan Independent Panel report. The acting commissioner publicly committed to implementing all the 20 recommendations that it made. Most importantly, the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, has done her review into the culture in the police. The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, talked about some of the cultural manifestations, with gay men and black people being treated as somehow less than their white or heterosexual counterparts. I think the noble Baroness will have delved into that. There were also of course the terrible murders committed by Stephen Port. In many ways, those investigations were treated less properly than they should have been.

Both noble Lords asked me about the process for appointing the Met Police chief. Obviously, it is written into law. I cannot comment on individuals who have applied, but the Home Secretary will take into account the comments of the Mayor of London.

The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, asked me about the 69,000 crimes that go unrecorded and said that in 25% of stop and searches the reasons are unrecorded. I cannot confirm or deny that because I do not have the figures before me, but I will write a note to him on that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, on whether the Home Secretary approved it, I saw the “check against delivery” vision of it, so I cannot comment any further than that. However, when these things happen, instead of the back and forth that we saw a lot of in the Commons, with people blaming each other, I will take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, that we need to work together to resolve these things. Every victim, incident and controversial issue that has happened is the rationale for this “Engage” process to have been triggered. In some ways we should be not glad that it has happened but pleased that the process is now in place to stop these sorts of things happening, as they have been all too frequently.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I apologise to the noble Baroness for jumping the gun earlier. However, perhaps I can compensate for that by building on something that she said which I agree with. Before I say that, I should say that I do not demur from any of the condemnation that we have heard from noble Lords about some of the terrible things that have happened. However, it seems—this is where I agree with the noble Baroness—that we have to as a society consider what we are asking the police to do, and not only the police but the NHS. One thing that we somehow have to get a hold on is the sheer number of people who are drunk, mentally ill or addicted to drugs, and the amount of time that casualty officers, police officers and even prison officers seem to spend dealing with these things, writing up the reports. Somehow, we almost need a third agency to deal with these people—I have mentioned this before in your Lordships’ House and it even found some favour—to allow the police to concentrate on the job they do. When we consider judgment on the behaviour of the police, it is worth pointing out these problems and what we expect of them in those circumstances.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

The noble Lord points to the very good work that the police often do, and to non-policing work that the police often do. He mentioned mental health problems, which the police very often deal with on a Friday and Saturday night, and probably other nights of the week as well. I recall that, some time ago, we made a decision not to put people with mental health problems into custody suites because it is clearly the wrong thing for them, and never to put children into custody suites. He also brought to mind the benefit of a multiagency approach. We all need to work together to tackle these problems so that it is not solely the job of the police.

Strategy for Tackling Violence against Women and Girls

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 22nd July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My noble friend raises an important point and IICSA is currently looking into some of the institutional abuses that took place in the past. We absolutely recognise that men and boys experience these crimes. That is why the Home Office is funding the men’s advice line run by Respect, which advises male victims of domestic abuse, and the Galop helpline, which provides support to LGBT victims. In addition, as part of the VAWG strategy, the Home Office has committed this year to increasing funding by £1.5 million for by-and-for service provision for victims of violence against women and girls, including by increasing the £2 million specialist fund recently launched by the MoJ with Comic Relief. This will build the capacity of smaller, specialist by-and-for organisations, supporting survivors of domestic abuse and sexual violence who are also from ethnic minorities, are disabled or, indeed, are LGBT.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, while not disagreeing at all with the concerns expressed by the noble Lords, Lord Rosser, Lord Paddick and Lord Hayward, especially where rape is concerned, may I sound a more positive note just for a moment? I am sure the Minister would agree that there are beacons of hope to light the way forward on which we should build. The Home Office-sponsored Barnardo’s Cymru domestic abuse scheme is a whole-family approach that allows both parents and child victims to receive support while the perpetrators of abuse take part in rigorous programmes designed to change behaviour, rebuild relationships and keep families safe. Moving statements on BBC Wales yesterday from all the parties involved attested to the success of this approach. Is this not the way forward where domestic abuse is concerned?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I must whole- heartedly agree with the noble Lord. Clearly, a whole-family approach, where the perpetrator acknowledges what they have done and wants to change their behaviour, is absolutely the right way to go. Often, a multiagency approach will work, but I want to join him in commending Barnardo’s for the tremendous work it does in this area.

Abolished Offences

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 9th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Collins of Highbury, our commitment to this has not diminished, despite the fact that it has taken time. When I was the Equalities Minister I was, and remain now, committed to equality, and the Government remain committed to equality. I am very proud of what the Conservative Government have brought forward to advance equality.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I am glad that the Government have chosen to celebrate the life and work of Alan Turing, for which we must all be grateful. But I think he would be disappointed to find the somewhat hypocritical stance that he is being celebrated while other people are still suffering from the stigma of this legislation. On a second point, I would prefer to see the word “disregard” changed to “quashed”.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

As a Mancunian, I have every praise and admiration for Alan Turing, who was one of many LGBT people to change the world. We do not want people being persecuted—that is precisely what we do not want—but we do not want unintended consequences from the laws that we make.

Policing and Prevention of Violence against Women

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 16th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con) [V]]

My noble friend is absolutely right, and it has been a pleasure to work with her, given all her experience—of course, she was part of the team that was at the heart of that Bill’s inception. It is crucial that we get it on the statute book; she is absolutely right that we have all worked together to achieve it. It has been much improved and, as so many noble Lords have said, it is a landmark Bill.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I could not agree more with what we have just heard; it has been a privilege to listen to proceedings on that Bill and the noble Baroness in particular. I will make two points. First, as a nocturnal dog-walker of some decades, I have frequently noticed how walking behind a lone woman or girl is unsettling. The minute I cross the street, I see the shoulders relax; I suggest to my male colleagues that we ought to be more aware of that fact. Secondly, many in your Lordships’ House, and I include myself, have been pushing the police to come down more trenchantly on people who break the lockdown rules—Cheltenham was only a year ago. While the sensitivity displayed the other day was clearly wrong, we have to be honest and say that the police are damned if they do and damned if they do not. I feel that we have been pushing them to be more proactive in this field.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con) [V]]

I totally acknowledge the noble Lord’s final point. It is also refreshing to hear a man say that he knows how women feel. I feel like that if I go for a run at night, and I thank him—I wish that there were more like him.

Operation Midland

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 11th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I have given that answer several times now. Obviously, disciplinary action against an individual officer is a matter for forces; we have IICSA’s current inquiry into institutional failures and we have had a number of inquiries into different matters regarding the issues raised this afternoon.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I have great sympathy with a lot of the views that we have heard, but I will try to look optimistically forward. I know that the Minister and her department have been looking at the whole question of whether anonymity should be given until a charge is made, and I wonder whether she could fill us in on where we are on that, what are her views and how that might help to prevent this happening again.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

We have discussed this a lot in your Lordships’ House. There is a presumption of anonymity, and that is absolutely right. There are occasions when names may be given out to bring forward further evidence. The Jimmy Savile case was a classic case in point. Quite often, it is not the police, the Home Office or anyone but the media who gives out names.

Fireworks: Damage

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 11th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that question. I cannot yet say what the numbers are for this year because they have not been collated, but, as I said in a previous answer, fire injuries have gone down quite dramatically since 2016. On police powers, Section 80 of the Explosives Act 1875 prohibits setting off fireworks in a public place, or throwing them into a public place or on to a public road, and the police have powers to enforce it. Breaches can be subject to a fine scale. They can also issue on-the-spot fixed penalty notices, including fines of £90, to persons age 18 or over who are found to be committing this offence.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I understand the desire not to restrict civil liberties if at all possible, but the fact is that fireworks lead to some terrible injuries. My information, despite what the Minister said, is that 2,000 people were brought into A&E in 2018. I, in fact, was injured when I was a child and still bear the scars from a wayward firework. I really feel that we should try to move firework sales to people who are experts and know how to put on a public display. Will the Minister think in terms of trying to move the law in that direction?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

The number of 2,000 that the noble Lord quotes is actually not far off the figure that I have, which is 1,936. On the point about the numbers declining, if I go through them he will see just how much they have declined—notwithstanding the fact that he was injured by a firework, for which I am terribly sorry. There were 1,936 injuries in 2018-19; 4,436 in 2017-18 and 5,340 in 2016-17. That is a very marked decrease in injuries from fireworks.

Sir Richard Henriques Report

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 8th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, in terms of taking the rap, the Henriques report makes it clear where accountability or failings have lain. It is a matter for the Metropolitan Police to hold the commissioner to account.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, is it not the case that this sorry story might never have unfolded if anonymity remained for victims until the police are ready to charge?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Of course, the presumption is anonymity before charge, but there will be circumstances where the police will feel it necessary to release names—although that is not in most cases; quite honestly, in a lot or most of the cases recently, it was through the media actually releasing names. It is against the law, I think, and anonymity before charge is an important standard to uphold, but of course we can all think of people who, had anonymity not been there, may never have come to justice.

Immigration

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 25th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I cannot tell the noble Lord the terms of reference or who will be on the review at this time. The Home Secretary will outline that in due course. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary wants Wendy Williams, who is dealing with the Windrush review, to be part of the wider exercise of this review. In view of some of the lessons that we have learned and the ways in which she operates, she will be very helpful in the review. However, I cannot give the noble Lord the detail on the review today.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I, too, welcome the tone of this Statement. There has been much mention of culture. That is correct, but in my experience culture begins to slip when people are pushed beyond their limits in terms of work. My question to the Minister is very simple. Will the Government bite the bullet and fund more staff for this important area? With Brexit—I am thinking in terms of visas for artists—the workload will increase by a staggering amount.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

There is no doubt about it. If noble Lords were in their place for the Question earlier, they will have heard that the number of people crossing the border has increased quite substantially in the past few months. Beyond Brexit, we are expecting pressure on the system, as the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, pointed out. The sort of thing that has to be considered is whether we have the capacity to deal with issues such as this. Noble Lords are right to talk about the culture of the Home Office. The Home Secretary has made a firm pronouncement that it has to change.

Renewal of G4S Contracts

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 9th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Lord for his questions. He asked why there is a two-year extension, especially when G4S was the subject of the “Panorama” programme. I hope I have outlined to the noble Lord, through my answer to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, what the Government’s expectations of G4S will be in this period—and the full reprocurement will provide a solid basis for further progress on all the issues I have outlined. We will continue to monitor the progress and the performance carefully. The conclusions, in due course, of Kate Lampard’s review and Stephen Shaw’s wider follow-up review will provide further opportunities to learn the lessons and embed good practice, both at Gatwick and across immigration detention more widely.

The noble Lord made the point about the hostile environment, and I have said several times since the new Home Secretary has been in post that that is not a term he wants to see, because of the connotations. He is more interested in a compliant environment, with people complying with immigration rules. As for people not knowing how long they will be detained, we are clear that people are detained for as short a time as possible. It must be noted that 92% of people in detention are not there for more than four months. Indefinite detention is against the law: it is not something that we do. Therefore, people are in detention for as short a period as possible.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that at the root of this problem is, possibly, not having a rigorous enough selection process for staff? The make-up of staff—for example, their attitude to immigration—is vital. I know that it is difficult to find the right staff, but it is absolutely essential if we are to change the culture of how we look at people in detention.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally agree with the noble Lord about the rigorous selection of staff. He will have heard me saying that nine staff have been dismissed in the light of the programme. However, going forward, it is not so much about those nine staff having been dismissed as about the staff who will be employed. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary has also talked about a humane environment. Humanity is at the heart of this: these are people, and they must be treated properly and humanely. I also talked about the whistleblowing procedures and the internal whistleblowing policy, which have been refreshed and reinforced. The engagement between case workers and detainees is a very important relationship that must be treated sensitively. The new arrangements will also strengthen our capacity to oversee the contract effectively. I totally agree with the noble Lord’s point.

Randox and Trimega Laboratories

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 27th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness is right that at times like this it is absolutely essential that we look at places and areas of best practice to see what we can learn. Of course, the full extent of that learning will not be forthcoming until a full investigation has been undertaken. However, I totally take her point that best practice has to be emulated.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I completely take the Minister’s point about the difficulty in finding a system that is totally fool-proof, but it would seem from what we have heard that the vetting of personnel could well be the central issue here. Could she tell us, or possibly write to us about, how that vetting might be improved?

Women’s Suffrage Centenary Fund

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 2nd November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

On the last point, the Government will certainly think about how they can celebrate the role of women both in Parliament and, more broadly, in public life. On the small grants fund, the noble Baroness is absolutely right that people have not heard yet, but they will do very soon.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, given the quite magnificent array of women artists in this country—painters, sculptors, writers and, of course, composers—might it not be appropriate to commission a memorial to Emily Davison, who took her suffragette protest to the Derby and was killed by the King’s horse, having hid here the previous night in a cupboard in the undercroft?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is absolutely right that Emily Davison is certainly a woman to be celebrated. However, on the funding of statues of some of the great women who have taken part in women’s suffrage over the last 100 years, it should not be a case of either/or. There are too few statues commemorating the women who have helped to shape our nation. We welcome the efforts of all charities and campaigners who are actively involved in this process.

Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 13th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, not having worked in local government but having sat on boards that involved public money, such as that of the Royal Opera House, I very much like to see open debate. On the other hand, I think the point that the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, made is very pertinent. Sometimes, if people cannot think outside the box, as we had to when the Royal Opera House was faced with closure, what tends to happen is that the things that the proponents of this amendment want can be completely thwarted: discussion can become more closed because people are frightened of saying what needs to be said, as it will create such a storm. I am not going to come down either way on this but I see both points. As somebody who has sat on a board and wrestled with this, I reiterate that I understand the point that the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, made.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, Amendment 14A seeks to ensure that the public have full and free access to combined authority meetings and documents and meetings of officers regarding the discharge of functions. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, put it absolutely right when he said that the same rules must apply to local authorities as do to combined authorities.

The noble Lord also asked whether devolution deals would be done under the gaze of the public and cameras. I imagine that, when a deal gets to the stage of a combined authority, that decision-making process would be in full view of the public and may even be recorded in some circumstances. Certainly that is allowed now under the rules of 2014. The process of developing a deal would involve a range of discussions, as the noble Lord will appreciate, between members and Ministers and between officers and officials. Crucially, decisions on whether or not to agree to anything will, as I said, be formal decisions of the combined authority; and—devolving down further—the constituent councils would have to agree to it as well, subject to the openness and access requirements applicable to councils and combined authorities.

The Local Government Act 1972, which applies to a combined authority just as it applies to a local authority, provides that all meetings of a combined authority must be open to the public except in limited and defined circumstances. A meeting of a combined authority, as with all other council meetings, may be closed to the public only in two circumstances: first, if the presence of the public is likely to result in the authority breaching a legal obligation about the keeping of confidential information; and, secondly, if the authority decides, by passing a resolution of its members, that exempt information, for example information relating to the financial affairs of a particular person, would likely be disclosed. The normal rules about access to agendas and documents that apply to local authorities apply to meetings of a combined authority—that is, to meetings of all or some of the members of the combined authority in their role as members of the combined authority to discharge the functions of the combined authority. Moreover, the Conservative-led coalition Government made new regulations in 2014 to make clear that a combined authority is required to allow any member of the public or press to take photographs, film, audio record and report on all public meetings. This openness ensures that combined authorities are genuinely accountable to the local people whom they serve.

The amendment seeks to extend this to give the public the right to attend meetings of officers. It would not be appropriate for the public to have a right of access to meetings of officers of the authority and would be wholly impractical. My noble friend Lord Heseltine and the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, made the point that, far from opening up options and discussions, it would seek to restrict them and close them down. It is right that officials give advice in public. I can think of one occasion—the annual budget setting—where the finance officer has to stand up and say whether or not the budget is sustainable. It is absolutely right that that is done in a public forum. However, to invade officers’ meetings would be wrong. It would not happen in a council, and given that these provisions mirror the provisions for local authorities, why should it happen in a combined authority? Officers cannot discharge functions of a combined authority, in the same way as officers collectively cannot discharge the functions of a local authority. In a combined authority, as in a local authority, functions are discharged by the members, committees or sub-committees of members, or can be delegated to particular officers. It would be wholly impractical for the public to attend officers’ meetings. Officers meet continually through the day to discuss issues, prepare advice for members and implement the decisions that members have taken.

I rather like my noble friend Lord Brooke’s suggestion of 12 noon decision-making. I think we would get rather a shock if that came into your Lordships’ House. On that note, I ask noble Lords to withdraw the amendment.