Commission Work Programme 2013

Debate between Lord Beith and Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston

Monday 7th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)]

Just ahead of the debate, I checked one of the political blogs and saw the following phrase:

“Over a hundred million pounds over budget, four years late, and the subject of a National Audit Office investigation”

and I thought that must be about the European Union. No, it was about the BBC’s rebuild. That brought it home to me that this House collectively pays great attention to the BBC, gives it more scrutiny and is better informed about how it runs than it is of the entire Commission work programme. As this is probably the last European Commission work programme before the 2014 election, at which the Conservative party might find itself beaten into second place by the UK Independence party vote, and we are moving into a time when matters European are going to be important across all the parties, I want to discuss the way in which we talk about the Commission programme.

It has been interesting to note that over the past hour, we have talked just about process and there has been very little on the substance. The truth is that debating an entire Commission programme in an hour and a half is a bit like saying that the Chancellor’s Budget speech or the Queen’s Speech should be debated by the House of Commons in an hour and a half. That is the equivalent; let us face it. If, as the Minister says, he is throwing a gauntlet down to Parliament, I would like gently to chuck it back to him and say that a number of things need to change if Parliament is seriously to engage with this issue.

I genuinely mean no disrespect, but if the European Union has this huge influence on our domestic legislative programme, which this work programme shows it does, what on earth is this matter doing in the Foreign Office? This is not foreign; it is domestic. The number of legislative issues that need to be addressed must be addressed by departmental Cabinet Ministers on a regular basis. I know that suggestions have been made about upgrading the role of the Minister for Europe, but I say no: I want UKREP to have a political role. All the negotiations going on need to be answerable on an “in time” basis, not through bits of paper that are fed to us afterwards. That should be done by UKREP, but at the moment it has a diplomatic role. If a Cabinet Minister were answerable from this Dispatch Box for all the negotiations at UKREP level, that Minister would be the equivalent of the Deputy Prime Minister. It is a serious post.

Let me give one simple example. The work programme talks about a “safe and secure” EU. I always remember Matthew Parris once saying that a speech or statement should be assessed on the basis of whether anyone would dare to say it if the word “not” were put in front of it. As I read through the document I thought that that would not apply to a single statement in it. It was a case of cut and paste, add the year, and motherhood and apple pie.

The Commission refers to establishing a European public prosecutor’s office

“to fight against crimes affecting the EU budget and protect its financial interests”.

I remember that 10 years ago, during the negotiations that led to the Lisbon treaty, the UK had to fight tooth and nail to make sure that a public prosecutor would operate on a legislative basis that would require unanimity. Ten years ago, we expended considerable political capital on that, because whenever the veto is exercised or unanimity is insisted on something has to be given back at some stage or other. We are now 10 years on, the basis of unanimity remains but the Commission still wants the office, so this never goes away.

The UK Government have said that they are opposed to the proposal. This House has to have a way of understanding how we are going to be against it—what the political negotiating cost will be of our not being part of such a move. I am afraid that an hour and a half of debate on the Commission’s programme—or even chucking the issue to a Select Committee or the European Scrutiny Committee, however worthy they may be—will not give us an “in time” political debate in order that we may really understand the value of something or the price that we pay for it.

[Sir Alan Beith]

I do not understand why the hon. Lady thinks that Select Committees are incapable of focusing significantly on the issues, obtaining the evidence relating to problems such as those that worry her, and bringing them quickly to the attention of the House. We do it all the time.

[Ms Stuart]

That would be true were it not for the fact that we scrutinise on a departmental basis, whereas UKREP’s political “give and take” negotiations in Brussels are cross-departmental. I have been present during such negotiations. Representatives say, for instance, “We will give the Germans a bit on cigarette advertising, and in exchange the Danes will be given a bit of an opt-out on fish and the Greeks will get a bit more money to enable them to grow tobacco.” The House of Commons will never fully understand that kind of give and take, but, whatever our relationship with the European Union, it needs to start to understand it.

I say to the Minister: yes, continue with the Select Committees, but there should also be a much better “in time” flow of information. UKREP needs to play a political role in the Cabinet. It should have a ministerial function, and should be answerable to the House. Moreover, now that we have Westminster Hall, what is to stop us asking Commissioners to go there in 2014 and answer questions from Members about the Commission’s programme? Why is this a “third party” relationship? We all stop and stare in admiration or astonishment when we see one of our Members of the European Parliament in the House of Commons. Most of us probably would not recognise half of them. That shows that there is a very sad relationship between the two legislative bodies.

In 2014, there will be a new Commission. On the assumption that our wonderful coalition will still be in place then, and that the Prime Minister will not go to the country until 2015, I think that the Government should think seriously about asking the incoming Commissioners to come here and explain their work programme in a way that would allow the House to question them directly and on a cross-departmental basis.

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

Although I disagree with some of what was said by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart), I think that her analysis of the political processes with which we are dealing was fairly shrewd and helpful. I also agree with her that there is something unsatisfactory about the way in which we are currently going about this—not least the provision of a mere hour and a half for the debate, although it must also be said that it is taking place at a much earlier stage than the last one, after two months rather than six, and is taking place on the Floor of the House rather than in Committee. However, I do not think that it would be improved by being extended to six or eight hours; I think that what this tells us is that we need more systematic, subject-by-subject scrutiny, as well as some awareness of the give and take that happens not just in European politics but in British politics: a Department will give way on one thing, and will be given something else by another.

It is to the Minister’s credit that he has engaged in dialogue and sought to encourage Select Committees to play the role that I have described. I can say, not just in my Justice Committee capacity but as Chairman of the Liaison Committee, that our discussions with him have been very useful. However, I think that he has found it a bit difficult—and we have found it very difficult—to build sufficiently on qualities that are already there and available.

When Committees go to Brussels and meet UKREP staff, many of whom will have been seconded to UKREP from individual Departments, they find them uniformly helpful, very well informed, and able to give a fair amount of guidance not only on the content of proposals but on the amount of traction that they are likely to achieve. They can say whether the proposals are worth spending time on, or are unlikely to get anywhere. We ought to deploy knowledge of that kind in a process that will engage Committees usefully and in a timely way, so that a British perspective on an issue—the perspective of British business, charities or trade unions, for example—can be brought to bear where it really matters.

We on the Liaison Committee are doing all that we can to encourage Committees to allocate time for such work properly in their programmes. Some of them do it all the time anyway. Most of the subjects for which the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, for example, is responsible are dealt with at a European level, so the Committee is greatly engaged with it, and other Committees regularly have issues as well.

[Ms Gisela Stuart]

I am genuinely seeking guidance. Which of the Committees of the House could have looked at ash dieback disease, for instance? People now say that, even if we had identified it, the EU could not have stopped the trade in infected trees early enough. Which Committee in our system could have tackled that, traced it back and said, “We need to do something”?

[Sir Alan Beith]

In our system, it follows the departmental responsibility, unless it is the kind of cross-cutting thing the Environmental Audit Committee deals with. In the case that the hon. Lady mentions, however, it would probably have been the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee.

There is absolutely nothing preventing Select Committees from seeking to get Commissioners in front of them or from going to Brussels to talk to them. The Justice Committee has questioned Commissioners on our areas of responsibility—for example, we have questioned them a great deal on EU data protection and information proposals. Select Committees have the opportunity to do that kind of work and to report in a timely way to the House. On data protection, for example, the Justice Committee has told Ministers that, in our view, they need to get the Commission to go back to the drawing board in respect of the excessively prescriptive nature of some proposals.

For the process to be engaged in effectively, however, there needs to be a change of attitude in some Departments in recognising what Select Committees can and should do. I think that the Minister is trying to achieve that. The reason I made the rather harsh comment earlier about it being delivery time was that we do not need any more dialogue; we know what needs to be done and what tools are available to help us to do it properly, so let us get on with it.

There is some sensitivity in this matter, as the Minister referred to when he said that Governments do not want to give away their negotiating position. Obviously, they do not, but these are not cold war negotiations or negotiations with North Korea over weapons; these are democratic states with open Governments trying to discuss with each other well-known concerns in each country. What final decisions Departments come to, when faced with having to give up one thing in order to get another, will probably remain late-stage decisions—as is the case every December at the Agriculture and Fisheries Council, for example—but none of that precludes sensible and timely discussion. Governments have talked about publishing lists that make it clear to the House and the public what questions and issues they have to resolve on matters that the Commission are bringing forward. We ought to be doing that clearly and explicitly.

Those are issues on which the real knowledge is not necessarily inside the House, but out there among the wide variety of bodies from which we take evidence and which are affected. The Justice Committee has been taking evidence from chief police officers about data protection rules and from organisations involving individuals adversely affected by some of these proposals. We have the means at our disposal to do the work, but we need timely information, guidance on issues that the Government recognise are difficult to resolve and not too much sensitivity about, “Oh, we’d better not discuss it with the Committee yet, because Ministers have not decided what they think.” That kind of obstacle is out of date, given that we are trying to deal with an evolving European situation.

I think that there is common ground between those of us who believe that Britain’s place is inside the EU and those who want to achieve fundamental change in it: while we are in it—as I hope we will remain—we must ensure that the legislative process works for us, and in order to do that we should use the tools at our disposal in the House and the House should have the benefit of the knowledge that the Government have at their disposal.