Sibling Couples

Debate between Lord Bates and Lord Bishop of Chester

Thursday 21st March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

I am grateful for the noble Lord’s support on this.

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, over the years, speakers from these Benches have completely supported the thrust behind the Question from the noble Lord, Lord Lexden. It is not only a matter for the Treasury and tax, but a matter of justice. If another party gets into power, perhaps the inheritance tax thresholds might even come down in due course—who knows? This does not seem a strong argument for denying an obvious need for justice in these cases.

[Lord Bates]

On the point of justice, that was tested, rightly, in the courts. The Burden sisters took their case to the European Court of Human Rights in 2008, and it did not find that there was discrimination against them in contrast to married couples when it came to inheritance tax. That was a clear decision. It is open to anybody else to challenge it through the courts, but our position is clear.

Spring Statement

Debate between Lord Bates and Lord Bishop of Chester

Wednesday 20th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

Yes, we should thank the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, in his absence, for making that plea, which the business managers were able to accommodate. I also wish to associate myself with my noble friend Lord Wakeham’s generous tribute to my good friend, colleague and mentor on the Front Bench, my noble friend Lord Young. I had not realised they were celebrating 45 years. I associate myself with my noble friend Lord Wakeham’s generous remarks to my noble friend about his service in both Houses.

I shall try to provide some taxonomy of the contributions, which ranged very widely but more or less settled down in the following areas. The first was, unsurprisingly, Brexit. I began repeating the Spring Statement by referring to what the Chancellor said about Brexit: it is dominating thinking not only in this place but in business. The noble Lords, Lord Tunnicliffe, Lord Davies of Stamford, Lord Davies of Oldham and Lord Bilimoria, the noble Viscount, Lord Chandos, my noble friends Lord Gadhia and Lord Northbrook, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, made points about that headwind. The only area of difference between us is that we say that the opposition parties hold it within their gift to dispel that cloud of uncertainty by backing the deal before us, but matters are unfolding. If there is any news to report I hope that a Box note will make its way along to me.

There was—I shall not overegg it—support for and recognition of the progress which has been made, notwithstanding the uncertainty. We enjoyed the noble Lord, Lord Macpherson, describing Treasury civil servants having to deal with disappointment, and I am sure that was enjoyed within my earshot. The reality is that this Statement was able to unfold some positive news about levels of debt, employment and the general fiscal situation. The noble Lords, Lord Macpherson, Lord Wakeham and Lord Northbrook, referred to the positivity. Even the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester—

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

Even?

[Lord Bates]

I am sorry—delete “even” from the record. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester, whose point about housing I will come back to in a minute, referred to it. The noble Lords, Lord Leigh, Lord Gadhia, Lord Bilimoria and Lord Suri, recognised that progress had been made despite the headwinds. It is absolutely right that we recognise that that progress has been made because British business and enterprise up and down the country—and around the world—is making a Herculean effort, creating jobs, wealth and buoyant tax revenues. These revenues are coming into the Exchequer, giving us the opportunity to look at them.

Across most of the contributions, there was a focus on public services and public spending. As I mentioned, the spending review will be in the summer and conclude in time for the Budget for the autumn, which will rely on it. Contributions effectively broke down into four areas. The noble Lords, Lord Macpherson and Lord Hain, and the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, referred to social care. The noble Lords, Lord Tunnicliffe and Lord Bilimoria, referred to policing, and the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, alluded to the tragic knife crime situation in Sheffield. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester, the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, and the noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, referred to housing. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, and the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, addressed local government finance.

Two other areas, which were grouped together, were the challenges of the changing nature of tax revenue and collection. The attraction of statutory land tax, which the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, referred to, is that it is very easy to collect. The changing nature of tax is making collecting tax more challenging. The noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, my noble friend Lord Leigh and the noble Viscount, Lord Chandos, referred to that challenge and ways to address it. Coupled with that is business confidence, which the noble Lords, Lord Gadhia, Lord Suri, Lord Northbrook and Lord Davies, referred to.

I will use the bulk of my time to address the questions raised as a result of those contributions. Several noble Lords asked how the Brexit dividend might be funded. The OBR’s Spring Statement forecast that business investment is weak. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, referred to that, and we acknowledge that in the near term. However, as uncertainty wanes, it picks up to 2.3% in 2020 and grows stronger at this pace from 2021 onwards. GDP growth is forecast to be 1.2% in 2019 before picking up to 1.4% in 2020 and 1.6% from 2021 onwards.

The noble Lords, Lord Tunnicliffe and Lord Hain, as well as several others, referred to infrastructure. We have increased the National Productivity Investment Fund to £37 billion to support key infrastructure up and down the country. Public investment is at its highest sustained level in 40 years.

The noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, and the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, referred to Making Tax Digital—indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, focused on that and the noble Lord, Lord Hain, touched on it. Research now shows the high level of awareness among business and tax professionals: eight out of 10 businesses were aware at the end of last year and over 80% of those had already started preparing. Of VAT returns, 98% are already done online.

The disguised remuneration loan charge was raised quite extensively, by my noble friend Lord Northbrook; by the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, on behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth; and by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, with her work on the all-party parliamentary group. Disguised remuneration schemes are and always were contrived tax avoidance. It is not normal or reasonable to be paid loans that are not repaid in practice; my noble friend Lord Wakeham was right in his sage advice on that, as in so much other advice he has given over the years. It is the individual’s responsibility to ensure the accuracy of his or her tax return. HMRC is pursuing the promoters of disguised remuneration schemes and has been investigating over 100 promoters. In the last year, HMRC has taken litigation action against 10 scheme promoters.

I turn to universal credit and welfare, which the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester referred to and the noble Lord, Lord Shipley—

Immigration: Regulations

Debate between Lord Bates and Lord Bishop of Chester

Wednesday 11th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

The noble and learned Lord is right. We need a few days to get that in place but, on Tuesday 17 March, a notice will go out through the all-party Whip for all interested Peers to attend a meeting with officials. I know there is a great deal of concern on all sides of the House. We will also offer some reassurance about actions and steps which have been taken.

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, does the Government accept that, because the number of migrants who come here perfectly legally from the EU is much higher than expected, the downward pressure from the authorities on non-EU immigrants is onerous, aggressive and leads to the sort of report we have just heard? There is now such a disparity of treatment between EU and non-EU immigrants that it is producing all manner of injustice.

[Lord Bates]

We have to look at the reason why we have seen pressure on immigration; we have to take it seriously. The right reverend Prelate will recognise that uncontrolled immigration, which we have had in the past, puts intolerable strains on our public services. In this country we rightly have a proud tradition of offering asylum to those who are in fear of persecution and that will continue under the present regime.

Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill

Debate between Lord Bates and Lord Bishop of Chester

Wednesday 28th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

Well, yes, I am happy to say that we will continue to keep the whole thing under review. That is the whole point of the consultation. I accept that the fact that the consultation concludes on 30 January may cause some difficulties. However, all the points debated today and at Second Reading are very much part of that consultation. I shall certainly go as far as I am able towards providing what might be described as an additional “first draft” type of review of the guidance, as a result of the responses that have been received so far. About 160 comments have been received, in addition to the debates that we have had.

I was about to say that a substantial number of points have been raised in the debate, and I can go through them. My noble friend Lady O’Cathain, who happened to catch my ear during the intervention by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, asked me not to miss out the point made by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester about religious institutions. There is a point here, which we took into consideration, about what is a private matter, such as religious faith and worship, and what is a public matter—that is, a public matter in public institutions of education—and about comparing the two duties and thinking about whether we should extend our guidance into those institutions.

That was one of the reasons why my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, Eric Pickles, decided to send the letter that he wrote to mosques and other religious institutions, recognising the importance of faith and urging them to play their part in the community-wide desire to keep our society safe.

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, I am grateful for those remarks, but I think that advocating the idea that the distinction is essentially between private and public will not work in the longer term. Religion is too powerful a force, and spills over beyond the private. Indeed, in one sense universities are private institutions: they are completely legally independent of government, and one of the reasons why they flourish in this country is that, even though the relationship is close, that position has been maintained. I simply make that point, and hope that at some point further thought will be given to how one can get beyond simply relegating the religious to the private sphere—because that does not really work.

[Lord Bates]

Having been on the receiving end of mass campaigns by people who are deeply upset at the state daring to encroach on the sacred territory of religious groups, I think that we should bear in mind the notion of, “Be careful what you wish for”. We do have to be careful here, because there will be people who say, “Hang on, this is the state going one step further than it should into a private realm”. None the less, I shall reflect further.

Pensions Bill

Debate between Lord Bates and Lord Bishop of Chester

Monday 20th January 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Bates]

Okay, I have the right answer now: £20,000 is needed for flexible draw-down but not for capped draw-down or trivial commutation of benefits. There are different elements of it. My point, from which I have probably strayed into a trap—I should have stuck to the script—was that there is a range of choices, not simply the annuity rate which people face. That is why it is vital that all members engage early. That is the reason for the wake-up programme which is now being organised, to encourage people to engage with what they should be considering later on.

Also, making brokers the first port of call for all would create a captive market for one part of the industry, without effectively adding to consumer protections. Another risk to consumers is that they could fail to engage with options other than annuities that are more appropriate to them.

The noble Lord’s amendment suggests that a brokerage service would have to provide information on alternative at-retirement services, but it has to be recognised that brokers are not impartial. They make their money if the member buys an annuity, but not if they choose to draw down or defer, or to commute. While it is right that schemes should play a central role in informing consumers of their options, we would be wary of making this part of the qualifying criteria for automatic enrolment. The duty to enrol into a qualifying scheme does, of course, fall on the employer, and so to require them to take this step would be an unwelcome, additional burden.

I make it clear that we are committed to ensuring that consumers have the information they need to make good choices and that the annuities market works effectively for consumers and so, in this respect, we welcome the debate. The noble Lord, Lord Browne, has perhaps chided my honourable friend Steve Webb for raising this matter on annuities but, in many ways, he was doing just what the noble Lord is doing: saying that this is an area which needs to be discussed and debated. In many ways, this debate enables us to do that, but so do the reviews which are taking place and to which I have alluded in my response. I trust that, as part of that, the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, briefly, I listened to the Minister with great interest. I regard the amendment as important because, in a sense, the proof of the pudding is in the eating; it is when you are taking the benefits of the saving.

The Minister’s reply, it seems to me, says that in addition to all the complexities which the noble Lord, Lord Browne, set out, there is actually a whole load of other complexities about whether you should be having an annuity at all. My question is simply as follows. Until now, when we have often had final-salary schemes around, these decisions have been largely managed. However, we are increasingly moving into a position where most people will be on money-purchase schemes, and this will become normal; we will have to engage with these issues. Given the complexities which the Minister has so helpfully set out, is the Government’s view that the obligation to work this out is on the consumer—the person taking the pension—with some information provided somewhere, or is the obligation on the pension provider to provide information which covers all these options? Where does the responsibility primarily lie to advise the person at the point of retirement? I thought it was not quite clear enough as to where that lies in what the Minister said.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

I will ask another question associated directly with that. To what extent does the Minister expect the Money Advice Service to take on some of this responsibility, given the slightly bumpy ride it has had so far? Or do the Government—and here I declare an interest—expect an organisation like the Pensions Advisory Service to take on some of this responsibility? It has to be free, independent, impartial and professional. Those are the only two organisations of which I am aware which might fit that role at the moment.