Pensions Bill

Debate between Lord Bates and Baroness Hollis of Heigham

Monday 20th January 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, this Government recognise the importance of supporting individuals in making decisions about their retirement income choices. These choices can be bewildering and the implications of choosing an unsuitable product can be devastating, as the noble Lord has very clearly set out for us in moving this amendment. That is why the Government continue to lead on and to support a whole range of initiatives aimed at driving up standards among providers, providing guidance to trustees and education to members. As well as the ABI code of conduct, we welcome the new Pensions Regulator guidance setting out expectations for what trustees should provide for their members. In addition, the Money Advice Service is further developing its support for those approaching retirement to help them engage with how their personal situation relates to products and services which might be appropriate to their needs.

However, we need to understand whether this activity is making a significant difference in terms of value to the consumer. The Government will therefore be assessing the ABI evaluation of the code of conduct planned for later this year, and the Pensions Regulator will be assessing the impact of the new guidance this summer. We will also be looking at other indicators to assess the extent of change in the market.

Wider regulatory activity includes the Financial Conduct Authority’s thematic review of annuities and consideration of a market study. The review will assess the extent of detriment to consumers of not shopping around—the numbers presented this afternoon have been quite startling and stark—and will consider other indicators of risk, such as insurers’ retention rates and whether profits in the market are high or unreasonably high. The FCA will report later this quarter. In addition, Her Majesty’s Treasury and the Department for Work and Pensions are currently reviewing the broad range of available research and statistics on decumulation to explore the impacts and interactions between market and consumer behaviour and government policy.

Our concern about the noble Lord’s amendment is that, while rightly highlighting a key issue, it would increase the risks for consumers and place additional burdens on employers. I will deal first with the risk for consumers. By sending all members to an annuity broker, we would effectively be pushing them away from regulated advice routes, as brokers, unless they are also FCA-regulated advisers, are not required to ensure that the product is suitable for the consumer. At this point, it is worth saying that the range of options available to somebody facing retirement are bewildering but are also many: there is not just the open market option but whether they should be retiring at all or whether they should be using the flexibility that is available, whether they should be drawing down on a pension pot rather than actually purchasing a new version of it, and what type of annuity—

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Lab)]

That is very helpful from the Minister but, if he is going to do that, he is going to have to look at the artificially high base of alternative income—the £20,000 a year you have to have before you are allowed to enter into these arrangements, which was based on not being a charge to public funds but which is unreasonably high. I fully support the Minister’s argument but it follows that he must actually look at his minimum alternative income requirement.

[Lord Bates]

Those points about alternative income requirement are correct but there are a number of reasons, not just those, as to why annuity rates are historically low, to do with interest rate levels.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

The Minister may not have understood my point. He was, quite sensibly, making the point—I entirely agree with it—that people should be able to consider alternatives to annuity arrangements, such as draw-down and the like. All I am saying is that to do that, and not to have to cash in, you have to have, under Treasury rules, a minimum of £20,000 in alternative regular income. That is on the grounds that you need to protect people against falling into a charge on public funds if they exhaust their private savings. That figure seems to be artificially high and the Minister will need to look at that again.

[Lord Bates]

Okay, I have the right answer now: £20,000 is needed for flexible draw-down but not for capped draw-down or trivial commutation of benefits. There are different elements of it. My point, from which I have probably strayed into a trap—I should have stuck to the script—was that there is a range of choices, not simply the annuity rate which people face. That is why it is vital that all members engage early. That is the reason for the wake-up programme which is now being organised, to encourage people to engage with what they should be considering later on.

Also, making brokers the first port of call for all would create a captive market for one part of the industry, without effectively adding to consumer protections. Another risk to consumers is that they could fail to engage with options other than annuities that are more appropriate to them.

The noble Lord’s amendment suggests that a brokerage service would have to provide information on alternative at-retirement services, but it has to be recognised that brokers are not impartial. They make their money if the member buys an annuity, but not if they choose to draw down or defer, or to commute. While it is right that schemes should play a central role in informing consumers of their options, we would be wary of making this part of the qualifying criteria for automatic enrolment. The duty to enrol into a qualifying scheme does, of course, fall on the employer, and so to require them to take this step would be an unwelcome, additional burden.

I make it clear that we are committed to ensuring that consumers have the information they need to make good choices and that the annuities market works effectively for consumers and so, in this respect, we welcome the debate. The noble Lord, Lord Browne, has perhaps chided my honourable friend Steve Webb for raising this matter on annuities but, in many ways, he was doing just what the noble Lord is doing: saying that this is an area which needs to be discussed and debated. In many ways, this debate enables us to do that, but so do the reviews which are taking place and to which I have alluded in my response. I trust that, as part of that, the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, briefly, I listened to the Minister with great interest. I regard the amendment as important because, in a sense, the proof of the pudding is in the eating; it is when you are taking the benefits of the saving.

The Minister’s reply, it seems to me, says that in addition to all the complexities which the noble Lord, Lord Browne, set out, there is actually a whole load of other complexities about whether you should be having an annuity at all. My question is simply as follows. Until now, when we have often had final-salary schemes around, these decisions have been largely managed. However, we are increasingly moving into a position where most people will be on money-purchase schemes, and this will become normal; we will have to engage with these issues. Given the complexities which the Minister has so helpfully set out, is the Government’s view that the obligation to work this out is on the consumer—the person taking the pension—with some information provided somewhere, or is the obligation on the pension provider to provide information which covers all these options? Where does the responsibility primarily lie to advise the person at the point of retirement? I thought it was not quite clear enough as to where that lies in what the Minister said.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

I will ask another question associated directly with that. To what extent does the Minister expect the Money Advice Service to take on some of this responsibility, given the slightly bumpy ride it has had so far? Or do the Government—and here I declare an interest—expect an organisation like the Pensions Advisory Service to take on some of this responsibility? It has to be free, independent, impartial and professional. Those are the only two organisations of which I am aware which might fit that role at the moment.

[Lord Bates]

I am grateful for the interventions of the right reverend Prelate and the noble Baroness. The Money Advice Service and the Pensions Advisory Service are, of course, important. However, the argument we are having at present is about saying that individuals need to focus on this issue. It is their responsibility. It is vital to them. That is what the debates about transfers and auto-enrolment are trying to do.

However, we are wary of putting the responsibility for providing information to members solely in the hands of annuity brokers. It is better to drive up standards by ensuring that all the players in the annuity market—providers, schemes, trustees and consumers—are engaged. That is why the Government have led in support of a number of different initiatives to address this important issue and will continue to challenge the industry if there is no significant improvement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

I support my noble friend, as that is precisely my recollection too. During a series of meetings with the organisations, the temporary cap came up because of the fear among pension providers that they would lose significant sums of money they had under management and the associated fees. The sole reason for doing it at the time was to get consensus to get it off the ground. Distraction was not a word that was ever uttered, and I must have been in about three years’ worth of those negotiations.

[Lord Bates]

These recollections will be there. I take it that it was in the mind of the Government that NEST had a huge task to focus on in actually attracting people who had never saved for their retirement before to start saving. That was a major responsibility, and issues were debated around that time relating to the effect that NEST’s creation would have on the market. Certain things were considered. It would be wrong to say that it was the only thing that was considered in terms of restrictions and the need to focus, but it was certainly one of the things which should have been focused on.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

Does the Minister have any evidence that NEST—its chair, chief executive or board members—wanted this limit?

[Lord Bates]

I do not have any information to hand on that. However, we have got the point that I was perhaps overegging this by saying it was the only thing, and I need to recognise that other factors were perhaps considered when it came to putting this restriction in place. There was no sinister purpose, it was simply to say that there was a huge task to be undertaken and to ensure that NEST’s systems and operations could actually handle this. We do not want to put excessive burdens on NEST so that it fails when so many are dependent on its success.

Pensions Bill

Debate between Lord Bates and Baroness Hollis of Heigham

Wednesday 15th January 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Bates]

He might say that but he is one of the providers and I therefore think that that is certainly well worth listening to. Another reason why we have come to this conclusion is because there is a great deal of uncertainty about what is happening out there. Auto-enrolment in pension schemes has been a huge success and the previous Government deserve credit for introducing it in the 2007 and 2008 Acts, based on the recommendations of the Turner commission. The price of the success of auto-enrolment is that it is creating a larger number of smaller pension pots as people move on. Figures have been quoted of there already being 370,000, and the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, has talked about a future figure of 600,000. That means that the need to make a decision is more urgent than ever. The noble Baroness was asking, “What does the industry think? What are people actually thinking?”. Pensions Expert, in its comment and analysis section said:

“If last year was about policy, then this year it is going to be all about making things work. Government have now clearly set the direction of travel. The success of auto-enrolment—in terms of low opt-out rates—means even more small pots are going to be created than were expected. Previous estimates that auto-enrolment would create around 370,000 new pots of less than £2,000 each year now look woefully low”.

They are very clear in what they are saying: they want direction. That does not mean to say that that direction cannot be changed by a future Government—just that they are getting clear direction. We consulted about it in 2011; in 2012 we issued a response; in 2013 we actually said what we were going to do. It seems as if finally, the industry—and, we hope, members—are getting their heads around the fact that this is the preferred option and the route that we are going down to ensure that we actually make it work.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

They may be getting their heads around the Government’s position, but that does not mean that they agree with it.

[Lord Bates]

The noble Baroness says they do not agree with it, but when the ABI actually carried out a survey and asked people which one they preferred, 58% of consumers said they preferred pot follow member.

Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill

Debate between Lord Bates and Baroness Hollis of Heigham

Tuesday 19th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, I was not intending to speak on this amendment, but I rise at the prodding of the noble Lord, Lord Bach, who seemed to suggest that some kind of operation was going on in the conduct of our discussion. If there was any operation, the strangest thing about it was that there was not a single speech from the Back Benches of Her Majesty’s Opposition. It is amazing. We are talking here about what we recognise as being critical issues. On each amendment, there were probably three speeches from the Back Benches here, but not one single speech from the Back Bench of the Official Opposition. If the noble Lord wants to come back on that, I shall be more than happy to give way.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

I overheard one of the government Whips encouraging those who sit on the Privy Council Bench to speak and speak and to string out it out to delay the votes. I heard that myself. Those Members made their own decisions and I do not in any sense criticise the quality of their speeches. I also saw briefing being passed from the Minister and so on. Perhaps the noble Lord could not see from where he was sitting in the same way as we who have a front-stalls view of what is going on might have done, but, certainly, there was active encouragement of three privy counsellors, none of whom has been known to display any interest in social security hitherto—unlike the noble Lord. All credit to the noble Lord: he has stayed with us; he works on these matters; and he tries to take a balanced approach. I make no criticism of him, but, as to today’s proceedings, there was not a shadow of doubt. Perhaps the noble Lord was sitting in the wrong place, in more ways than one.

[Lord Bates]

That is a wonderful way of expressing it. The noble Baroness has been complimentary to me; let me reciprocate by stating a fact. She knows more about this subject than anybody else in this Chamber and everybody would immediately acknowledge that. Our previous discussions in Committee and at Second Reading were enhanced immeasurably by her thought-provoking contributions. Now, what is more unusual: that a few Members on Her Majesty’s Government’s side should rise to speak in support of the amendments or that the noble Baroness did not make one speech during their consideration?

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for letting me come back on this. Today, we started with a key debate on whether it was right to tie future Secretaries of State’s decisions on the rate of uprating of benefits. My noble friend Lord McKenzie moved the relevant amendment and we had an extensive discussion. We then had a hugely important debate on children, a hugely important debate on disabled people and then an important debate led by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood. The noble Lord, Lord Bates, will know as well as I do that, as we had only effectively half a day—because people are not here after dinner—to discuss four key issues, either we had to postpone key debates to a period of time when no one would be here, including his Privy Council colleagues, to listen and take part, or we acted in a way that was self-disciplined in order that the arguments at least in their basic form could be heard, so that those who wished to—and there were not very many on his side—could come in and listen to those points being made to see whether they affected their vote. We were trying to act responsibly. Had we had two days on Report, we could have paced it differently and I for one would have been delighted to have spoken at least three times on each amendment and made a dozen speeches.

[Lord Bates]

I take the noble Baroness’s point and shall not pursue it further. I had not intended to make that point, but it is important. Perhaps I may say one other thing. Since I have trodden on a few toes, let me tread on truly sacred ground.

Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill

Debate between Lord Bates and Baroness Hollis of Heigham

Tuesday 5th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, I rise with trepidation following the noble Baroness, who has immense expertise in this area. Even if I had not intended to speak on the technical aspects of this amendment, the claim by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, whose approach is always sharp and pointed in proposing such matters, that this Government is not serious about tackling child poverty would demand a response. Not only is it there for us to read repeatedly in government statements that this Government, as with their predecessor, are committed to the eradication of child poverty, but when we are tempted to get a little too high and mighty about that, one might look at the targets which the previous Government set in respect of halving child poverty by 2010 and how they performed against that measure—they did not tackle it. The commitment is real and is what is driving the whole argument towards universal credit, the raising of tax thresholds, the freeing up of the economy to create 1 million new jobs—which is a pathway out of poverty—the troubled families programme and the pupil premium. This is an immense drive across all departments within government to tackle what we accept is a shame on a country which is still the seventh-richest nation on earth—that 2.3 million children should be in poverty. I just make that point initially.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

Given the Minister’s very welcome and obviously understandable sympathies and sensitivities towards the issue of child poverty, does that mean that we can expect the noble Lord to table an amendment at Report stage to protect child benefits, including the child benefits within tax credits, from this Bill altogether?

[Lord Bates]

I will come to that point in a minute because it is an interesting one about the effectiveness of the cash measure alone in eradicating child poverty. The previous Government failed to meet their target of reducing child poverty by the level they set themselves, despite spending £171 billion between 2003 and 2010. Here, in a sense, is something that almost makes the case for the Opposition, were they to take it. Those of us on the government Benches could stand here and point to the fact that, in 2010-11, 300,000 children were taken out of relative poverty. We could say that, but of course we realise that that is not actually happening on the ground. We recognise that those immense pressures are there. I do not dispute the quotes that the noble Baroness has used in introducing this but the Institute for Fiscal Studies, in its helpful analysis, points to the fact that all that happened with that 300,000 was that you had private sector incomes—predominantly—being repressed or flat-lining. I am trying to follow the gestures of the noble Baroness but being a man I can do only one thing at a time. Private sector incomes increased by 10% over the years 2007 to 2012 while benefit levels increased by 20%. That is one of the arguments that is put. Because it is pitched at median income, you then find that, as the Institute for Fiscal Studies shows in its graph, the measure comes down, the benefits go up and effectively you say, almost like a card trick, “We have reduced child poverty by 300,000”. In fact, you have done nothing of the sort. All that has happened is that, during a recession, private sector incomes have fallen and therefore, as the IFS says:

“If earnings fall relative to benefit levels, then being in work becomes less financially attractive”.

Those are the IFS’s words, not mine.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, I apologise to the Committee. I was unable to be present for the beginning and I have obviously missed the explanation of a phrase that I cannot understand. The noble Lord has just repeated that the answer to child poverty is not money. I do not know the explanation for the Government’s view that you do not eradicate child poverty by providing money. I wonder whether the noble Lord could refresh my memory.

Secondly, the noble Lord comes from a different northern region from mine. The biggest problem that people face is poverty when they are struggling to go to work. They are struggling to get extra hours, which the Government are insisting that people have to try to do, when their employers will not give them extra hours; when the only extra hours they can get may be two hours further away from their home and the cost of travel there is impossible. I think that noble Lords opposite are not living in the same world as I am. My only reassurance is that the right reverend Prelate appears to be living in my world.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

My Lords, perhaps I may add to my noble friend’s comments. The noble Lord perfectly accurately described what was happening to the 300,000 children who were lifted out of poverty because the median income line fell by virtue of the recession and the downward pressure on incomes. Of course, he is completely right, but the other way of stating that was that as a result of what the previous Government did, the incomes of those children—the poorest of the poor—were protected against the effects of the recession, for which most of us are grateful and appreciative, including the noble Lord, I am sure.

[Lord Bates]

I accept that point. On the first point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington, of course I am not saying that child poverty has got nothing to do with money. It is vastly to do with money, but is that the only thing that impacts on child poverty? If we want to impact on child poverty, do not the quality of housing, the quality of education and the opportunity to work have some bearing on the fact? Does the fact that the parents are in debt or are drug-dependent or alcohol-dependent have any bearing on it? Does living in a one-parent family or with two parents make any difference to the life chances of the child in poverty? One would probably have to say: yes, to a degree. I am simply saying that there is more to this.

That fact is borne out by international comparisons. I found a report card of child well-being, which was produced while the previous Government were in power. It was undertaken by UNICEF and it is an international comparison. Yes, it looks at cash, although interestingly it looks at 50% of the median, not 60%; it also looks at health and safety, educational opportunities, work opportunities, family and peer relationships, behaviours and risks, and subjective well-being—a broad range of indicators in a basket of trying to assess international child well-being. By the way, if the party opposite is interested, it actually came last: 18.2 was that Government’s average ranking position out of the most advanced countries in the world, but that is not my point.

My point is that we must come back to the median income. The median income is worth looking at in itself because that is the test that we are using to measure all benefits. It relates to a level of income—not an average income but a median income, the most frequent across the distribution. The latest figures I could find on the ONS website showed that median incomes vary quite substantially across the United Kingdom—nothing unusual there; you would expect that to happen. For example, in London the median gross wage is £651.80 per week, but in the north-east the figure is £451.80 per week. These are the latest figures; I accept that there might be a shift slightly in one direction—well, upwards only.

There is a difference of 44% across the range. Therefore, when we are applying a national target of 60% of the median, we need to examine whether that is giving us an accurate reflection of child poverty levels in all parts of the country. It might be that we are understating it in parts of the north, Wales and the south-west; it may be that we are overstating it in London—I do not know. None the less, using that as the sole measure to test median income across a national rating by which we actually assess those in child poverty is worth taking a more careful look at.