EU Withdrawal

Lord Bassam of Brighton Excerpts

Wednesday 13th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

Indeed I will. I have been preparing for today’s debate and sitting in the Chamber, but I will have a look when I get the opportunity. I can also assure the noble Lord, as he suggested I would, that we have no intention of inflicting any damage on the Irish economy.

Many noble Lords, such as my noble friend Lady Altmann and others, have again asked about Article 50 and suggested that we could simply extend or revoke it. I think she is profoundly wrong on this matter. The Government’s policy has not changed. We will not revoke our notice to withdraw from the European Union under Article 50. We stand by the commitment we made to the British people to uphold the result of the 2016 referendum. To revoke our Article 50 notice would be to dishonour that commitment and to reject an instruction clearly given to us by the British people. On this point I agree with my noble friend Lord Cavendish.

I also do not believe that there is anything like a majority in the House of Commons for such a course of action. Indeed, we might soon find out. I note that there is an amendment tabled by the SNP that, if selected, would put that notion to the test in the other place. Perhaps that would be a useful reality check for those who cling to the belief that they can wish away the referendum as if it had never happened.

I also remind noble Lords, including the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, and the noble Lords, Lord Kerr and Lord Hannay, those who would like to extend Article 50, that as they know very well, that is not a unilateral option. An extension would require the consent of all 27 member states, a point well made by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech. As the Prime Minister correctly highlighted in the other place last week, the EU is very unlikely simply to agree to extend Article 50 without a plan for how we are going to approve a deal. To this extent I agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope. The best way forward, as I have said many times, is to leave in an orderly way with a good deal.

My noble friend Lord Balfe asked me to speculate on potential ratification timetables in the European Parliament. I hope we will be able to secure a satisfactory deal in plenty of time to allow the EP and this Parliament to approve it. I also gently say that we are not proposing to leave the European family—we are proposing to leave the European Union, which is not the same thing.

Unsurprisingly, many noble Lords returned to their favourite subject of a second people’s vote. I include in that number the noble Lords, Lord Judd, Lord Wilson, Lord Davies, Lord Taverne, Lord Hannay and the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft. I am sure it will come as no surprise to any of them to hear me say that the Government stand by their policy to respect the result of the 2016 referendum. This Government made a commitment to the British people that we would respect the result of that referendum; I agree with the points made on that commitment by my noble friends Lord Cormack and Lord Cope. I note that this was a promise made by the Opposition too, and while obviously I have many differences with Jeremy Corbyn, on this matter I pay tribute to him, because he at least, unlike many in his party, seems to want to stick by that pledge made in their last election manifesto.

The only guarantees that another referendum would bring are of more mistrust and uncertainty. I notice that the supporters of a second or indeed, according to the noble Lord, Lord Cope, a third people’s vote, have yet again failed to offer this as an option in the House of Commons votes tomorrow, because they know, as do the rest of us, that there is no majority in another place for a second or, indeed, third vote.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, the noble Lord, Lord Newby, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, and in his inimitable style—although indirectly and through the noble Baroness, Lady Smith—the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, all asked about the legislation to be delivered in advance of exit day. With regard to primary legislation, the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Act 2018, the Nuclear Safeguards Act 2018, the Haulage Permits and Trailer Registration Act 2018 and the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018 have all now received Royal Assent. Six other exit-related Bills are currently in Parliament. The Trade Bill, the Financial Services (Implementation of Legislation) Bill, the Agriculture Bill, the Fisheries Bill, the Healthcare (International Arrangements) Bill and the Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill will be prioritised appropriately to ensure that the measures necessary for a functioning statute book on exit day are in place before the UK leaves the EU.

With regard to secondary legislation, the majority of statutory instruments are needed in either a deal or a no-deal scenario, and they will be deferred to the end of the implementation period if they are not needed on 29 March. This is part of our long-term planning—

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Callanan]

I will give way to the noble Lord in a second, if he will allow me to finish my paragraph.

This is part of our long-term planning, with statutory instruments being laid since Royal Assent of the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

How many parliamentary days does the noble Lord estimate those six or seven Bills that he has just outlined will take?

[Lord Callanan]

The planning of parliamentary processes and times are matters for the usual channels, in which the noble Lord used to take part, but we remain confident that we will deliver the appropriate and necessary legislation ready for our exit day.

If the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, is in his place—he is—I can tell him that Ministers have been actively engaging key figures in Europe. They include my colleagues the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, who were in Brussels and Strasbourg this week. The Foreign Secretary was also in Paris earlier this week. I have spoken to a number of my colleagues in ministries in other European countries as well. Meetings to discuss the ideas put forward by the alternative arrangements working group have taken place, and we are grateful to that group for its work. We continue to explore its ideas.

The Prime Minister set out the UK’s position, strengthened by the mandate that the other place has given her: that Parliament needs to see legally binding changes to the backstop, which can be achieved by changes to the withdrawal agreement. She and the President of the Commission agreed that our teams should hold further talks to find a way forward. The Prime Minister and Mr Juncker will meet again before the end of February to take stock of those new discussions, so our work continues. The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, made some extremely good points on the need for discussions to continue.

I thank my noble friend Lord Ridley, first, for his compliments and, secondly, for his question about the card reportedly received by Jean-Claude Juncker from the Irish Taoiseach. I had better be careful how much I say about this, but while I have done a lot of leaflet delivery in my time, the letterboxes in Brussels seem to have got a lot larger since I was last there. Perhaps it was an early Valentine’s card from Leo to Jean-Claude. In any case, the Government are fully committed to upholding the commitments of the Belfast agreement. My noble friend also made some very valid points about Commission appointments; much as I am tempted, perhaps I should leave my remarks on them there.

My noble friend Lord Cathcart asked about using Article XXIV of the World Trade Organization’s General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade to ensure that we have tariff-free and quota-free trade with the EU. This provision refers to interim agreements. In order to use it, we would need to agree with the EU the shape of the future economic partnership, together with a plan and schedule for getting there. This would then need to be presented to all 164 WTO members and they would be able to scrutinise it, suggest changes and, ultimately, veto it. This is of course not the Government’s preferred option. The Prime Minister and her team are working hard to agree legally binding changes to the withdrawal agreement, as I said earlier, so that Parliament can unite behind it and the UK can leave the EU with a deal.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked about CRaG—the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act. As the Prime Minister set out yesterday, it remains the Government’s intention to follow normal procedures if we can. However, if insufficient time remains following a successful meaningful vote in the other place, we will make provision in the withdrawal agreement Bill to ensure that we can still ratify on time, to guarantee our exit in an orderly way. This would of course require agreement in both Houses; noble Lords will no doubt want to consider the arguments carefully. What is important is that Parliament has the opportunity for ample time to scrutinise, debate and vote on the withdrawal agreement. In the circumstance where the House of Commons had voted to pass that agreement, though, it is hard to see why Parliament would want to hold up our exit or to allow MPs or Peers to consider the treaty once more.

I turn to the Motion of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, which seeks to tie the Government’s hands in negotiations. We cannot support a Motion which mentions “all steps necessary” to avoid no deal without excluding “no Brexit” from the list of necessary steps. The Prime Minister has been clear that the Government want to leave the EU with a deal agreed with the European Union and with the support of Parliament. That is why she has listened to the concerns raised in the other place about the backstop and is working to find a solution that can command the support of MPs. As I said, discussions with the EU are continuing with that aim.

However, as the Prime Minister has said, it is not sufficient just to wish to avoid no deal. The best way for MPs to avoid a no-deal scenario is of course to vote for a deal. When we have secured the progress that we need, we will bring forward another vote under Section 13(1)(b) and (1)(c) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. But we do not agree with the timing strictures that the Motion in the name of the noble Baroness proposes. As the Prime Minister said, and as I set out in my opening speech, if the Government have not secured a majority in the other place in favour of a withdrawal agreement and political declaration, the Government will make a Statement on Tuesday 26 February and table an amendable Motion to that Statement. A Minister will move that Motion on Wednesday 27 February, thereby enabling Members of the other place to vote on it, and any amendments to it, on that day.

This has been another good debate on our exit, and it will certainly not be the last. As I made clear in my opening remarks, a clear timetable has been set out for the next steps in Parliament. Tomorrow will see debate in the other place, where MPs will also consider amendments to the Government’s Motion. Noble Lords, as I will, will no doubt be watching with great interest. In closing, however, I reiterate, in case there is any doubt, that this Government are committed to delivering on the result of the referendum. We want this to take place in a smooth and orderly way, which requires securing a deal that MPs can support. The other place has made clear what it wishes to see changed, and that is what the Prime Minister is working to secure in our further discussions with the EU.

Brexit: Legislative Timetable

Lord Bassam of Brighton Excerpts

Monday 7th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I can certainly give the noble Baroness an assurance that we will allow for proper scrutiny. Perhaps I may correct her statement on the number of SIs. As we wrote to the sifting committees just before Christmas, we now estimate that the number of SIs we will need by exit day is slightly fewer than 600, of which we have already tabled more than 300.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, can the noble Lord assure the House that legislation in the form of Acts of Parliament to come before us will not be treated as emergency legislation because the Government are running out of time?

[Lord Callanan]

Discussions on the time allowed for legislation are a matter for the usual channels. Co-operation in this House has always been good, and I can assure noble Lords that that co-operation will continue with any required legislation.

Brexit: Financial Settlement

Lord Bassam of Brighton Excerpts

Tuesday 11th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

Obviously, it is to be hoped that we do not get into any disputes. We remain committed to the Chequers deal; as I said yesterday, we are awaiting a formal response from the EU. We think it is a good proposal, involving compromise on our behalf. We need now to see similar movement and compromise on the EU’s behalf.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

The former Foreign Secretary says that the EU can “go whistle”. Would the Minister like to comment on Mr Boris Johnson’s remark?

[Lord Callanan]

I think it is best if I stay away from these particular arguments.

Brexit: European Commission Discussions

Lord Bassam of Brighton Excerpts

Monday 9th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

The former Secretary of State has set out his reasons, which noble Lords can read for themselves. I am happy that we will be continuing to leave the European Union on the terms that I set out earlier, and I look forward to playing my part in delivering the referendum result.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, what is the difference between a facilitated customs arrangement with a common rule book and a customs union? Where is the difference in policy?

[Lord Callanan]

The difference is that we are allowed to set our own tariff schedules under the facilitated customs arrangement.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Bassam of Brighton Excerpts

Report: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 30th April 2018 Lords Chamber

I say this in conclusion. I believe that public opinion in Britain is essentially humanitarian and essentially says, “Yes, we accept that child refugees are vulnerable, and we should take at least some of them”. The Government would be flying not in the face of public opinion but with it. I realise that the Home Office has had a difficult patch in the last little while, which has made it a bit more difficult for some of the informal discussions I have had to take place before almost the last minute. Without wanting to sound too pompous or patronising, I think that a Home Office commitment to a humanitarian cause would not go amiss in terms of the reputation of the Home Office and of this country. I think that I have made my case. I beg to move.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, my name is joined with that of the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, on this amendment. I think that if I was to make a lengthy speech in support of the amendment the House would not thank me. It is much better that we try to resolve the matter.

I want to thank the Minister for our meeting earlier today with the noble Lord, Lord Dubs. It was very useful but also quite instructive. I think that we were agreed that we were not far apart in what we were both seeking to achieve. Where we differ fundamentally is that the noble Lord and I share the view that we should put such a provision in the Bill.

There was a lot of resistance when the noble Lord tried to do this with his original Dubs amendment. Some of the arguments then were exactly the same. They were: “This isn’t something you should try and commit to legislation”. Well, I think it is, because it sets a benchmark and a threshold, and it gives an instruction. The Government are often keen to tell us that they have been instructed on things, and we need from time to time to be clear about what we are trying to achieve in negotiations. This is one of those occasions.

We should not resile from our humanitarian commitment. This evening, by supporting the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, we will be fulfilling that commitment. I therefore hope that the House comes speedily to a conclusion in this debate, so that, if we have to, we can divide on it and give support to the noble Lord on a very important matter to which I think we all wish for a happy outcome.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

My Lords, I, too, have put my name to the amendment. As the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, has pointed out, we are talking about the rights of children. This is not just a humanitarian question; it is about a number of children across Europe who have a right to come to this country at the moment because their family is here.

Having gone to Calais last summer and having with Fiona Mactaggart, the former MP, written a report on what was going on in Calais and Dunkirk, I know that the plight of children there who have not yet been processed is dire. The plight of children in the Greek and Italian camps is very poor. Therefore, the way in which Dublin III works is patchy, but, as the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, has said, it works to some extent. Please let me repeat: we are talking about children with rights and not advancing arguments based exclusively on humanitarian grounds.

I was lucky, with the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, to be at a different meeting from that referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, in which we met two Ministers, the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, and the noble Lord, Lord Duncan. We had useful discussions. I entirely accept the genuineness of their offers to the noble Lord and me. They are trying hard to placate us. They have expressed good intentions which are, as far as they go, valuable, but they are aspirations as to what might happen at a later date. They are talking about the possibility of an immigration Bill and of another Bill later this year, or what they call in lovely general terms a vehicle into which this sort of thing can be placed. As far as it goes, that is good, but it does not go far enough.

I would like the House of Commons to have time to discuss this amendment if this House passes it, as I hope it will, so that, by that time, Ministers will perhaps have got their act together to be able to make much more concrete offers to the House of Commons. Therefore, it is important that we support this amendment at this stage so that at least the other House has the chance to consider it. I will therefore vote for the amendment if the House divides.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Bassam of Brighton Excerpts

Committee: 7th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 14th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, I should explain that this amendment to my Amendment 208 is a technicality. I have been told that there is a slight flaw in the original amendment, so I have deleted four words. I have decided that this is the way it should be done. I beg to move.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise to support the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Dubs, the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. These are important amendments that, frankly, should not be left to be considered at the fag end of a long day. I hope that when we come to the Report stage of the Bill, they will be debated in a rather fuller House than is the case this evening.

In essence, as my noble friend Lord Dubs has said, the amendments seek to preserve the position established by him during the discussions on the last Immigration Act and as a product of Dublin III. Since 2015, some 811 unaccompanied children have been successfully reunited with family in Britain under the Dublin III arrangements, while a further 250 have been transferred under Section 67 of the Immigration Act 2016. These are not big numbers and it frankly shames our country that we have failed to provide help and support for children fleeing war zones and civil war, but at least they represent a level of intervention that we can recognise as the beginning of a humanitarian programme of aid and support. It would be my wish to see our country go further.

In 2015, more than 1 million people arrived in Europe seeking refuge. It is estimated that 90,000 of them were unaccompanied children. The fact that we have taken just over 1,000 I find frankly lamentable. However, I recognise that we need to be realistic in the current situation and those of us committed to helping refugees, particularly child refugees, want at least to ensure that in a post-Brexit Britain we keep alive the important gains we have made to date. As my noble friend Lord Dubs has argued, these amendments go no further than ensuring that the UK Government do not close down safe and legal routes for unaccompanied children and adults seeking asylum to join family and receive protection.

I am not as experienced in arguing the case for refugees as my noble friend Lord Dubs, but I have had some personal experience of dealing with the fallout for refugees through the Refugees at Home charity, which seeks to place refugees with families. For some six months, my wife and I had a young woman called Riam staying with us while she sorted out her asylum status and began to rebuild her life. In talking to her extensively during that time, I gained a picture of how it must feel for many thousands of refugees across Europe who need help and support. Her family were originally from Aleppo. They fled the violence and moved to a city that they thought was safer. She, her sister and her brother eventually escaped the Syrian conflict, leaving her mother and father behind. Now, the family communicate by phone and, occasionally, by Skype. Her brother and sister are in different cities in different European states. This family faces the prospect of never being able to see each other again and enjoying the normal things that families do.

I know that Riam worries endlessly about her parents’ welfare. She once told me that ISIS—and loyal and rebel forces—had made it to the outskirts of her parents’ city and were engaged in fighting. She was terrified by that prospect. I cannot imagine how she must feel daily: estranged, thousands of miles away from her family, who are scattered across Europe and the Middle East, with a sense of loss and not belonging always present in her mind. She is a gifted woman with most of her life ahead of her; she now works here in the UK.

If these amendments are agreed—as they should be, given previous amendments—we can at least make a contribution to helping some of the most vulnerable young people in Europe with a safe passage and some optimism. For the longer term, we need an EU-wide agreement that ensures we shoulder a fair share of the international refugee crisis. My fear is that post-Brexit Britain will turn its back on an issue where we need common and binding institutions to bring countries together to help. I want to hear from the Minister that we will at least retain a common commitment, and I want some reassurances that we will work together across the EU 27—whatever the outcome of the negotiations—to secure fair and humanitarian outcomes in the future, especially for young people and vulnerable refugees. It gives me great pleasure to support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, and I hope that this House will eventually agree to it at a later stage.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, I support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Dubs. My purpose in adding my name to it is quite simple. If Brexit happens, I want to preserve one of the few safe and legal routes open to unaccompanied children seeking asylum.

Although the Jungle camp in Calais was demolished in October 2016, thousands of asylum seekers remain destitute in France and other parts of Europe. Many children are among them. Dublin III presents a safe and legal route through which a process can be put in place that will allow them to be reunited with parents, uncles, aunts, siblings or grandparents who, in some cases, may themselves be seeking asylum. That is the crux of the matter: it does not take a psychologist to tell us that the separation of children from their families has a detrimental impact on their emotional well-being and physical and moral development. If Dublin III were not to be transferred into UK law post Brexit, an orphan in Europe could no longer be reunited with other close members of his or her family.

A week and a half ago, I was back in Calais to catch up with developments there and lend support to the work that Help Refugees does there. The young volunteers there—many of them British—were working flat out during the bitterly cold spell we have recently experienced. Many of the asylum seekers there are still trying to cross the border illegally, which often means taking their life in their hands. Five children have died over the last two years in the attempt, but for some, there is the hope that legal help provided by organisations such as Safe Passage will secure for them a safe and legal route to the UK so that they can be reunited with a family member or relative here. Without a functioning equivalent of Dublin III, children will continue to congregate in Calais, taking desperate and life-threatening steps to reach their families. I hope that, as a nation open and welcoming to refugees in the past and with a proud history of doing so, we can continue doing it and keep our heads held high on the global stage.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Bassam of Brighton Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 21st February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I am sure that the statements made by the Secretaries of State in the other place are true and valid and that they will be endeavouring to fulfil them. There will be further legislation, as we have said, on the withdrawal agreement and implementation Bill when we have sought and obtained agreement with the EU, and I am sure that further international trade Bills will follow in due course as well. However, that is not the subject of this legislation, as the noble Baroness well knows.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister was on his feet for just 12 minutes dealing with a debate that had taken over three hours. There are four sets of amendments here that deal with delegated powers. He has not addressed that issue at all in this debate but it is very much the focus of those amendments. That is a pretty shabby performance, actually, and this House is entitled to be extremely dissatisfied with the response that we have had. Further, we have had a big debate about the single market and the customs union but the Minister dismissed that in his opening comments. He said the Government were preparing themselves for a customs union-lite type of arrangement but failed to set out any details of what that might look like. This House deserves better explanations to its amendments than that, and I hope this does not give rise to an equally shabby performance on all the other amendments that we have to consider; there are over 300 of them.

[Lord Callanan]

I realise that. I apologise if the noble Lord is disappointed but I was trying to address what is actually in the Bill. As I said, further legislation will follow. We have spent three and a half hours so far debating one grouping of amendments, and we have eight further groupings to get through this evening on the timetable agreed by all the usual sources.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Bassam of Brighton Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 21st February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

Do not hold that against him.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Yes, he is a good bit younger than me, Steve—sorry, I mean my noble friend. He may not remember this, but Whitehall mandarins and Ministers did not like the idea of devolution. They were losing power from their central departments in Whitehall and opposed it. However, we had strong and effective Labour Ministers, particularly Donald Dewar, my noble and learned friend Lord Irvine and others, who made sure that real powers were devolved to the Scottish Parliament. Whitehall mandarins and Ministers still do not understand devolution. They have not come to terms with the new reality that there is not just one Parliament in the United Kingdom but four and that the others must at the very least be consulted on matters that affect them.

European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Bassam of Brighton Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 27th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Finn (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, it is not my job to do this but the House needs to move on. We should hear from the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, and then go the Front Benches.

[Noble Lords]

No!